What to do with 'the place'

A cow called Daisy

Looking for opinions/ideas/whatever here. May be long post..

I have a long term illness which although not terminal I will probably end up dying from something brought on by my condition or medication for same (if that makes sense) Do have check - ups regularly and have noticed things slowly getting worse.
Now my question is....What do I do with 'the place'? I'm approaching a point (although I'm not old by any stretch of the immagination) where I'd like to get things sorted. Live on my own, brothers/sisters and their families all live abroad and the young generation have no interest in farming. They probably sell it if they got it and I can do that myself. If sold out now I would need something to do to keep me occupied and am not qualified to do anything and also my health restricts me as well. Also not that fond of farming that I want to do it till I drop dead. Leasing only short term solution as I'm talking about 'after I'm gone'. The ecentric bit in me would like to give it to someone unexpected that I know. Also need house to live in and it's on edge of farmyard which may leave things a bit more awkward.

So any ideas? Value of farm probably irrelevant but want to avoid tax etc and be sensible as we have all seen cases where people made a mess of their will.
Sorry for long post.

Good loser

Brave post. So sorry to hear of your condition and commend your courage in confronting it.

Will reflect on your dilemma and consider if I can recommend anything.

visatorro

very sorry about your illness and I wish you the best going forward. not sure how to advise re land issue tbh. having no immediate and obvious person to hand over land to makes the decision less complex in one way. have you thought of approaching a neighbour to buy the land?

Grueller

Advertise for a young landless farmer to enter a partnership maybe? You still have a hand in and have help at hand also if the illness is affecting your ability to work.
It may be possible to leave the will in such a way that the partner farmer has a tenancy from your heir or that they can buy the land at a preferential price should they decide to sell, say 75% of market value.
Just an option and I am sure a good solicitor would be able to advise you how to protect your own interests along with those of yhe partner farmer and your heir all in one go.
I am really sorry to hear of your illness and wish you all the best. Above all mind yourself, the place is never as important as that.

XR3i

A cow called Daisy wrote: »

Looking for opinions/ideas/whatever here. May be long post..

I have a long term illness which although not terminal I will probably end up dying from something brought on by my condition or medication for same (if that makes sense) Do have check - ups regularly and have noticed things slowly getting worse.
Now my question is....What do I do with 'the place'? I'm approaching a point (although I'm not old by any stretch of the immagination) where I'd like to get things sorted. Live on my own, brothers/sisters and their families all live abroad and the young generation have no interest in farming. They probably sell it if they got it and I can do that myself. If sold out now I would need something to do to keep me occupied and am not qualified to do anything and also my health restricts me as well. Also not that fond of farming that I want to do it till I drop dead. Leasing only short term solution as I'm talking about 'after I'm gone'. The ecentric bit in me would like to give it to someone unexpected that I know. Also need house to live in and it's on edge of farmyard which may leave things a bit more awkward.

So any ideas? Value of farm probably irrelevant but want to avoid tax etc and be sensible as we have all seen cases where people made a mess of their will.
Sorry for long post.

it's a tough one alright.

who did you get the farm from?

what would they have wanted?

ps, don't write off "the young generation", maybe they are a bit young to understand the value of land and their roots and culture, but it could be an option to educate them a little bit about land and their culture before "giving it to someone unexpected"

hope it all works out well

Miss PE

Hi,

I'm so sorry about your illness & hope that you are feeling as well as you can. As the above posters have said, you are very brave to face this question as so many just push it under the carpet....

One avenue I would suggest is contacting the guys in Land Mobility Service Ireland (landmobility.ie). This is run by Macra na Feirme / IFA and funded by FBD.

They provide a service to facilitate workable arrangements between farmers and land owners. The fundamentals of the service are:
-To provide information
-To outline and explore options
-To act as an honest broker
-To provide a confidential service facilitating land mobility
-To work with farmers’ existing professional advisers

You possibly could fit into the following category of farmer that they deal with:
"A working farm with scale and infrastructure, owner looking to step back" so they could possibly match you with a young farmer / farmer looking to expand.

Down the line if the arrangement worked you could possibly transfer/sell.... tax liability size would be dependent on the arrangement and possibly the length of time any arrangement was in place.

Best of luck both with your health and with whatever you decide to do with the farm.

frazzledhome

Great honest post. Sorry to hear about your health issues and hope you're as well as you can be.

You've really well on the way to a decision by virtue of the fact that your not ignoring the situation and know what you want.

As PE said I recon that Land Mobility would be a good start. Austin Finn is the guy to speak to. They will weigh up your options with you not for you. I can pm you his number if you wish.

All the best

frazzledhome

Great honest post. Sorry to hear about your health issues and hope you're as well as you can be.

You've really well on the way to a decision by virtue of the fact that your not ignoring the situation and know what you want.

As PE said I recon that Land Mobility would be a good start. Austin Finn is the guy to speak to. They will weigh up your options with you not for you. I can pm you his number if you wish.

All the best

kowtow

Grueller wrote: »

Advertise for a young landless farmer to enter a partnership maybe? You still have a hand in and have help at hand also if the illness is affecting your ability to work.
It may be possible to leave the will in such a way that the partner farmer has a tenancy from your heir or that they can buy the land at a preferential price should they decide to sell, say 75% of market value.
Just an option and I am sure a good solicitor would be able to advise you how to protect your own interests along with those of yhe partner farmer and your heir all in one go.
I am really sorry to hear of your illness and wish you all the best. Above all mind yourself, the place is never as important as that.

+ 1

Done imaginatively and carefully, and with time on your side, you might make a real difference by doing something along the lines above.

Might be a good idea to start with Land Mobility Service as suggested for free thoughts, but don't stop there, and don't stop until you find a solicitor who is as imaginative as you and willing and able to achieve exactly what you want.

Be careful of complex trust arrangements (if that turns out to be what is required) unless you can find someone to administer after your eventual demise that does not bill on an hourly basis.

Don't sign anything which doesn't put a smile on your face when you read it.

patsy_mccabe

Daisy, how are you coping with all this? Forget about everyone else. You need to look after your own wellbeing first.
I would seriously advise you get good independent legal and financial advise. I got taxation advise myself only recently. After convincing myself I would have a small fortune to pay, turns out I don't have to pay a penny.
You really can't beat sitting down with someone who knows their stuff. It's all great and good to get advise from internet sites, but you'll always overlook something.
The way I see it, who would you call when your car breaks down, but a mechanic! Same for every other area of expertise.

If you can too, bring a trusted friend or relative with you to these meetings. It's always easier with 2 there. You can be thinking of questions or be making notes, while the other is talking. They'll think of things too, that you might have forgot.
Best of luck anyway.

whelan2

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Daisy, how are you coping with all this? Forget about everyone else. You need to look after your own wellbeing first.
I would seriously advise you get good independent legal and financial advise. I got taxation advise myself only recently. After convincing myself I would have a small fortune to pay, turns out I don't have to pay a penny.
You really can't beat sitting down with someone who knows their stuff. It's all great and good to get advise from internet sites, but you'll always overlook something.
The way I see it, who would you call when your car breaks down, but a mechanic! Same for every other area of expertise.

If you can too, bring a trusted friend or relative with you to these meetings. It's always easier with 2 there. You can be thinking of questions or be making notes, while the other is talking. They'll think of things too, that you might have forgot.
Best of luck anyway.

very good advice, dont rush into anything and look after yourself

As others have said, get an Accountant and discuss your situation with them. They, along with a solicitor will draw up a lease agreement to protect your interests. (If you are interested in a recommendation PM me.) It is a good idea to bring a relative or friend with you to any meetings.

Nettleman

Tough one Daisy but not uncommon. I have to commend ya on seeking advise as many have chosen not to, and left land disputes and family rows behind them. Many farmers have busted themselves for many years and are now at an age where difficult calls have to be made. id agree with Grueller to certain extent and patsy is 100% right. I think you should put a few quid aside now or soon as possible to speak to a topnotch but rural solicitor (who understands farmers brain and has experience of will/farm disputes) & definitely a separate tax planning specialist. Dont make the mistakes of only searching in your local area, the best independent advise is not always on your doorstep and you have to do a bit of work to seek it out. Then your worries will ease-

Charliebull

daisy, i know you had spoken previously about health issues and I didnt realise it was that serious, firstly mind yerself

from previous posts its easy you see you are an articulate, grounded, logical person with a wicked sense of humour, so no doubt you will make the right decision but dont make it on yer own, like people say seek all the advice available and then make an informed decision, as to what that decision is, im sorry but i cant help
as mentioned dont write off the younger generation yet, when i was young (a couple decades ago now) i lost all interest in the farm and went off to conquer the world, after a while I realised I wanted that lifestyle and came back to it and now could not be without it (as much as it frustrates me sometimes), what im saying is sound out the next generation and see if you have any takers

other than that (cavan isnt that far away;))

rangler1

A cow called Daisy wrote: »

Looking for opinions/ideas/whatever here. May be long post..

I have a long term illness which although not terminal I will probably end up dying from something brought on by my condition or medication for same (if that makes sense) Do have check - ups regularly and have noticed things slowly getting worse.
Now my question is....What do I do with 'the place'? I'm approaching a point (although I'm not old by any stretch of the immagination) where I'd like to get things sorted. Live on my own, brothers/sisters and their families all live abroad and the young generation have no interest in farming. They probably sell it if they got it and I can do that myself. If sold out now I would need something to do to keep me occupied and am not qualified to do anything and also my health restricts me as well. Also not that fond of farming that I want to do it till I drop dead. Leasing only short term solution as I'm talking about 'after I'm gone'. The ecentric bit in me would like to give it to someone unexpected that I know. Also need house to live in and it's on edge of farmyard which may leave things a bit more awkward.

So any ideas? Value of farm probably irrelevant but want to avoid tax etc and be sensible as we have all seen cases where people made a mess of their will.
Sorry for long post.

I see farms being destroyed by being rented out, and the look of that happening to my farm would definitely hasten my demise, hence I'm veering towards hanging in as long as I can and then selling........that could change tomorrow

_Brian

My first thoughts would be a long term lease, but as Rangler pointed out if you get the wrong tenant in things go to pot very quickly indeed..

The suggestion about getting in a partner for the farm might be good. It would give someone a start and you would still have some input and work to be going on with yourself..

Lastly, are you really sure the younger one's have no interest, its amazing but over time people do come to see the major attraction in a farming type lifestyle , even part time or hobby on smaller holdings.

Timmaay

_Brian wrote: »

My first thoughts would be a long term lease, but as Rangler pointed out if you get the wrong tenant in things go to pot very quickly indeed..

Long term rents are all the rage at the minute with the tax incentive, what I'd be doing if I wanted to rent out long term and was concerned about the tenant, I'd rent it out on conacre for the year, with the option to sign a long term lease. A year gives you a decent length of time to suss out what sort of tenant they are, and what sort of respect they have for you and your land.

A cow called Daisy

Many thanks for all your replies and PM's and well wishes. I am getting some different ideas than I would of thought about. Will go into more detail over weekend as I'm away for evening in a 'no phone zone'.
Again, thanks for your concern/input.

kevthegaff

Not sure if the farm was given to someone unrelated, the will could be contested. Best of luck daisy and hope things work out!

kevthegaff

kevthegaff wrote: »

Not sure if the farm was given to someone unrelated, the will could be contested. Best of luck daisy and hope things work out!

Where there's a Will, there's a Relative!

Belongamick

Great courage to face up to difficult choices on several fronts.
I don't know your exact circumstances or where you live but it sounds like you keep an open mind.
Would you consider selling a portion of you property and get some travel in - get the sun on your back and visit some of the places you always wanted to. Bring a close relative along if your health worries justify it.
With the remainder, would you consider leasing it to a local soccer club, a local hunts club, creating a clay pidgeon area or something that people can go and spend a day at and you will know that for generations to come kids and adults would enjoy that grounds left to them.
If you go down this route seek plenty of professional advice.
Best wishes for the future.

Siamsa Sessions

Land mobility and a bit of time seeking out the best candidate sounds like a good plan.

If you could afford it, you could also make a 'Trust Fund' available for research students to do some work on new ways to treat/cure your illness. Might be a long-term gift to others who have the same illness.

Talk to the research office in your nearest college/university.

Bullocks

Some post Daisy , fair play for talking bout your situation.
I would put yourself first anyhow . If your illness gets worse will you need carers in or alterations to the house or even have to move out of the house , if so will you be able to pay for this or would it be a help to sell a site now and have money ready for these things .
Have you anyone one picked out that meets your criteria to give the place to ? It would be nice to see someone with a big interest in farming but no land getting a leg in the door , would a visit to a local Macra throw up some likely candidates near you ?

rangler1

Bullocks wrote: »

Some post Daisy , fair play for talking bout your situation.
I would put yourself first anyhow . If your illness gets worse will you need carers in or alterations to the house or even have to move out of the house , if so will you be able to pay for this or would it be a help to sell a site now and have money ready for these things .
Have you anyone one picked out that meets your criteria to give the place to ? It would be nice to see someone with a big interest in farming but no land getting a leg in the door , would a visit to a local Macra throw up some likely candidates near you ?

All very idealistic but unless there's 250 - 300 acres, there isn't an income for two. I can't see land maintaining present values, starting to happen around here already, so asset will be going down in value..no easy answer to this but definitely if you're not able to farm, get rid, so that if you have a bad day, you don't have to go out, plenty of things to do in Ireland if you have a good day.

Bullocks

rangler1 wrote: »

All very idealistic but unless there's 250 - 300 acres, there isn't an income for two. I can't see land maintaining present values, starting to happen around here already, so asset will be going down in value..no easy answer to this but definitely if you're not able to farm, get rid, so that if you have a bad day, you don't have to go out, plenty of things to do in Ireland if you have a good day.

I'm far from an idealist rangler but I get what your saying . It could still be a starting block for someone starting from nothing with a bit of drive in them .
If you were to sell your place would you keep a bit back for yourself, would you be any happier if someone got it that would calling in and telling you how it's going or what improvements they're making ?

rangler1

Bullocks wrote: »

I'm far from an idealist rangler but I get what your saying . It could still be a starting block for someone starting from nothing with a bit of drive in them .
If you were to sell your place would you keep a bit back for yourself, would you be any happier if someone got it that would calling in and telling you how it's going or what improvements they're making ?

My farm is fragmented with only eight acres round the house, so while I live here i'll always have that.
I suppose daisy probably isn't as long at it as I am, but the novelty of farming is well gone here, but you do need something to motivate yourself.
Looking around here, there's not many set up to take over a farm and pay the gift tax, which would be onerous as they wouldn't be related to me.
Anyone mature enough to do it have commtiments/family/mortgage....as I say not simple

kowtow

rangler1 wrote:

Looking around here, there's not many set up to take over a farm and pay the gift tax, which would be onerous as they wouldn't be related to me. Anyone mature enough to do it have commtiments/family/mortgage....as I say not simple

There is potential to leave it free of gift tax if it is rented to an active farmer. I'd be looking for a way to do this which ensured that a suitable deserving farmer could access it at low or peppercorn rent perhaps still reserving the ultimate benefit for others / relatives.

Can think of a few ways to do it but every situation is unique.

Cattlepen

Don't be afraid of renting it out. Good tenants can be got. It's not a sin to rent it as some people think. I think they are more afraid that the tenant might actually make a few bob out of it. There are plenty of other things you could do to occupy your mind eg further education or voluntary work rather than farming especially with a health condition.

A cow called Daisy

Again many thanks for your concerns and advise/opinions. Will try and answer them as many queries etc as possible. Whether right or wrong they'll be honest. Don't actually feel any different than I did when diagnosed first 10 years ago and have the advantage that I/medical people know I have some issues. Several don't and they could be gone before me. Could be killed in car also. Just making me do something that not done by previous generation....make a will/get things sorted.

The farm is about just under 100 acres and in family about 3 generations the previous one having married into the place. My siblings and families all live abroad (USA, UK, South America and Far East. All young ones at school/college and when asked if they interested (in casual way) they not say YES!, I'd love that, but they didn't say NO WAY either. This would all of been while back and wouldn't like to put to much pressure on them at this stage of their life. Had that myself and I always kinda resented it.
Not ready in my mind to sell yet. Could be around for while yet cos as I said in OP it not terminal just a more dehabitaliting condition.
The idea of partnership/joint venture is one I have thought of previously and have neighbour who has mentioned it a roundabout way. The place has great facilities although land needs bit of work....it is Cavan after all. Would give me freedom to get 'out and about' and also give me inclination to do bits to further devlop farm while still having security of owning property.
Definitely need good professional advise from understanding 'rural solicitor/accountant and whoever for this.
The whole thing is just getting me to do something that I promised myself I'd do when I reached a 'certain age'. There a lot younger than me in local graveyard that thought they they'd never die. The bit about a 'condition' is just giving me the 'kick in the ass' to do it.
Thanks again for your help. Being on my mind this last few years to sort this.
And sorry for long winded post

Good loser

Hi Daisy. You've got some great advice there up the line. A lot of ground has been covered.

Just a few add-ons. Perhaps look at matter in stages either 2 or 2+. Maybe fix on 'no changes' for 1 or 2 years. Perhaps target 2017 for stopping the day job. On the other hand, as rangler said, I don't see capital or rental values holding their own into the future.

Would prefer to keep it within family if at all possible. A family conference?
That David Young in the IFJ could be a help.

All the advice given so far seems sound to me.

Cheers.

bradygaz

Lots of great advice and I am no legal or even land expert... long term renting still requires the rent money to go somewhere after you're gone... not sure if you mentioned sending this to your family.

You could leave your land to the charity related to illness under instruction it not to be sold but to be rented to up and coming farming...eg) under 25... ask 3 of your farming neighbours to form a mini group who will decide of capabilities, qualifications and suitability of applicants and advise charity.

In this way you will be providing the charity / research element of your illness with €10k- €15k of income per year... you have given a new farmer a great starting opportunity... plus you land will be in safe hands and looked after given the interview process carried out by your local farming neighbours.

Potentially you could advise charity also that if any family member wants to buy land back it would be for a set nominal fee... could even stipulate that this only kicks in after 10 years so charity will still have benefited from €100k+

Markcheese

Could the land be put in a trust - that could you the flexibilty to get a guy in to share farm . Get an income but still have a way ultimately of letting a family member have access to it , in the future. you could also put in conditions about you'd like the ground to be farmed (if a certain field ,lane or building has meaning to you)
Good luck

kowtow

Markcheese wrote:

Could the land be put in a trust - that could you the flexibilty to get a guy in to share farm . Get an income but still have a way ultimately of letting a family member have access to it , in the future. you could also put in conditions about you'd like the ground to be farmed (if a certain field ,lane or building has meaning to you) Good luck

That crossed my mind. Was considering whether it can be done free of CAT on the basis that the trust either owns it thrpugh a farming company or leases to an active farmer. Trust could stipulate kind of individual it can be leased to and any favourable terms and some income could be distributed among the family.

Need to be a bit careful of trustees. . If a perpetual or very long term arrangement they will eventually need to be paid. May be able to have income only beneficiaries as trustees...

Food for thought.