Transport Minister wants re-designed bus routes

StreetLight

"Transport Minister admits there is a traffic problem, wants to offer commuters alternatives to sitting in their cars for hours"

http://www.newstalk.com/Minister:-Dublins-bus-routes-need-to-be-redesigned

Network Direct 2.0 ??

thomasj

StreetLight wrote: »

"Transport Minister admits there is a traffic problem, wants to offer commuters alternatives to sitting in their cars for hours"

http://www.newstalk.com/Minister:-Dublins-bus-routes-need-to-be-redesigned

Network Direct 2.0 ??

About time !

andrew163

Awesome. This way the government gets to look like it's doing something (which is all that really matters, right?) without actually investing anything into a real solution. Good work, DoT PR team!

Gatling

Government demands redesigned routes,
this will work out well

mortimer33

I've always wondered by Dublin Bus doesn't have orbital bus routes that use interchange stations to link up with radial routes... The ideal scenario would be to have multiple radial routes passing through each interchange station. An interchange station doesn't have to be anything fancy - just a big bus shelter !!

ClovenHoof

StreetLight wrote: »

wants to offer commuters alternatives to sitting in their cars for hours"

It was called the DART Underground and the same dickhead cancelled it. Remember?

thomasj

Personally an orbital route would stop at limited stops used as interchange. Isn't there a bus lane on the m50? (There was one planned)

It could be swords > airport > ballymun > finglas > blanchardstown centre > Liffey valley > tallaght square > dundrum and dun laoghaire

Something like that

Dravokivich

thomasj wrote: »

Personally an orbital route would stop at limited stops used as interchange. Isn't there a bus lane on the m50? (There was one planned)

It could be swords > airport > ballymun > finglas > blanchardstown centre > Liffey valley > tallaght square > dundrum and dun laoghaire

Something like that

Nope. Some bus routes have used it though. I recall a 76-based route using it to go into Blanchardstown.

Avada

They need to sort out the routes and times they operate. Not everyone works in the city centre and 9-5. I live in Dublin 3, and work in the airport. My public transport options are to get to sutton and get the 102, this would take about 90 minutes. Alternatively I can go to the City Centre and go from there, also a long journey. Added to this, if I can get the bus to work, its finished when I finish. If I'm finished in time to get it, I would have started too early to get it to work.

A large amount of airport workers live in D3, D5 and D13 and are left in the same boat.

cgcsb

Why bother your hoop tinkering with bus routes when you've cancelled DART Underground, Metro North and the M20, the three most important transport projects in the state.

It is clear that this government does not want to invest in infrastructure and is venomously anti urban.

That being said it so shameful to see the busiest road in the state having no public transport alternative whatsoever. A new public transport only bridge/road from the N4/R113 junction to the Carpenterstown road supporting 3 or 4 high frequency Blanch-Tallaght routes would be fantastic.

thomasj

i said it before that keeping the 17A but after donaghmede extending it to the airport (via n30??, hilton) may not look an attractive route for people coming from blanch or finglas (but its an option for people who want to go the whole way on the 1 bus), but for people on the santry, coolock, malahide road, kilbarrack etc and the surrounding areas, this would make a big difference.

The only bit taken out of the route would the last stops around howth junction but thats walkable to the station plus it opens up options for people around clare hall etc

Terrontress

There needs to be high frequency orbital bus doing Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Ranelagh, Donnybrook, Ballsbridge, Ringsend, Point, Drumcondra, Phibsborough, Cabra etc etc and right the way round to Harold's Cross again. Frequency every five minutes.

That's the orbital route I'd like to see.

mortimer33

thomasj wrote: »

Personally an orbital route would stop at limited stops used as interchange. Isn't there a bus lane on the m50? (There was one planned)

It could be swords > airport > ballymun > finglas > blanchardstown centre > Liffey valley > tallaght square > dundrum and dun laoghaire

Something like that

I agree with the point about limited interchange stops however I don't agree with the locations.. I would argue that an interchange stop should be picked based on the radial route destination offering. By basing an interchange station somewhere like Swords/Ballymun you're not offering a traveler much in terms of further travel - however an interchange stop at Whitehall Church could offer access to routes (1, 33, 41C, 41B, 41C, 16, 16C, 44,41, 740, Airport buses), So someone could switch and travel to the Airport, Swords, Balbriggan, Dublin city etc.. Also someone from Swords or Balbriggan could hop off a radial route at Whitehall and hop on the orbital route to keep them away from the city center..

Banjoxed

cgcsb wrote: »

Why bother your hoop tinkering with bus routes when you've cancelled DART Underground, Metro North and the M20, the three most important transport projects in the state.

It is clear that this government does not want to invest in infrastructure and is venomously anti urban.

That being said it so shameful to see the busiest road in the state having no public transport alternative whatsoever. A new public transport only bridge/road from the N4/R113 junction to the Carpenterstown road supporting 3 or 4 high frequency Blanch-Tallaght routes would be fantastic.

The minister is probably taking advice from some Merc chauffeured bollocks in Nesbitts. Buses for the proles. Good enough for them :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub

My suggestion. A bus stop every 50 metres and also the bus should run down every lane and byway. A twice daily service should do. One at 11 am and the other at 7.34 pm.

devnull

To be fair, the comments about the routes all going to city centre and not enough orbital routes that he made are spot on.

the groutch

The problem is the NTA are still only half-assing the whole Network Direct.
Keeping buses running through housing estates (or along narrow streets not designed to take buses) to pander to a vocal minority is what's holding back Dublin Bus' potential efficiency.

LXFlyer

The Minister is merely restating what the recent NTA Transport Strategy recommended.

That report recommended that the following six orbital services be developed:

Ranelagh-Drumcondra:
Via current route 18 to Sundrive Rd., Kildare Rd., Drimnagh, Inchicore, Conyngham Rd., NCR, Ratoath Rd., Broombridge and Ballyboggin Rd. and Griffith Avenue.

Dundrum LUAS-Finglas:
Via the R112 to Chapelizod, then via a new Liffey bridge west of Chapelizod, Castleknock, Ashtown, Rathborne and then Finglas.

Blanchardstown-Kilbarrack:
Current 17a, but re-routed via Collins Avenue, Beaumont Road and Beaumont Hospital

Blanchardstown-Tallaght:
Current 76a, but re-routed via N4, Fonthill Rd. and Fonthill Rd. South.

Tallaght-UCD:
Fettercairn-Tallaght Square-Whitestown Way-Firhouse Rd West-Killininny Rd-Scholarstown Rd-Ballyboden Way-Taylors Lane-Grange Rd-Ballinteer Ave-Wyckham Way-Overend Ave-Birches Lane-Taney Rd-Mount Anville Rd-UCD

Balally LUAS-Dun Laoghaire:
Balally LUAS-Overend Ave, and then via current route 75 to Stillorgan, then via Stillorgan Park-Fleurville-Rowanbryn-Monkstown Ave-Mounttown Road Upper and then via current route 75 to Dun Laoghaire Station.

Now of course these are the suggested preferred routes, but when these come to be actually developed the plans may change, based on public feedback.

========================================================================================================

On a more general point, I think people have to remember that planning orbital routes is far more difficult than radial routes into the city centre.

The first problem is that you cannot match the majority of individual journeys with a bus route, because quite simply people are starting from different individual locations and finishing at different individual locations.

It's impossible to match everyone's journeys because quite simply the starting and finishing points are huge in number.

The second issue is that in order to maximise loadings, the routes have to serve major traffic generators, such as industrial and business parks, shopping centres and hospitals.

This does mean inevitably that the routes won't necessarily take the most direct route possible between two points.

To those who think sending buses along the M50 is the solution, do you seriously think that people who already driving are going to switch to an option that involves taking one bus to the M50, a second along the M50, and a third to their final destination? They won't. Apart from using the M50 over the Westlink bridge, the M50 option is never going to work.

I also think that it is extraordinary that there are not more local routes to/from Dublin Airport, considering the numbers of people who work there. There are space constraints at the airport, but allowing for that, at a minimum in my opinion, there really needs to be extensions to routes 4, 27b, 33a, 33b, 104 and 140 to serve Dublin Airport.

markpb

devnull wrote:

To be fair, the comments about the routes all going to city centre and not enough orbital routes that he made are spot on.

Outer orbital routes are very difficult to do well. The traffic on and around the m50 at certain times of the day is ludicrous. The traffic at the major trip generators around the m50 is brutal (Sandyford and Blanch, I'm looking at you) and bus priority is non-existent.

Add to that, the fact that people hate transferring so the frequency on both the orbital routes and connecting routes needs to be very high to compensate. We have 1-2 actually high frequency routes in the city, the chances of adding a lot more is close to zero.

Inner orbital routes would be easier but won't have trip generators of the same scale and the city traffic routes are generally configured to prioritise arterial traffic so something would have to give in order for them to work.

hmmm

If only he was in power he could make changes rather than wishing for things.

cgcsb

A large barrier to orbital routes is ticketing, most people who use orbital routes would be changing bus. We live in the western world's last bastion of non integrated ticketing, surely that needs to be addressed.

mickoneill31

I heard him on Newstalk earlier on talking about the M50. As somebody who sits on the M50 going nowhere fast every day I was interested in what he was going to say.

It boiled down to

1: improving public transport. Nothing concrete mentioned apart from the joined up Luas. That'll help me a lot when I'm on the M50. He mentioned some vague stuff about Dublin Bus. If I could get a bus from my home town on the northside to my job on the southside without having to wait for ages or swap 2 or 3 times I'd jump at it. I don't see it happening though.

2: variable speed limits on the M50. I'll remember that when I'm stopping and starting during the morning and not going above 20Kph.

So nothing at all. He doesn't want to do variable tolling and increasing capacity on the roads isn't an option. Thanks Paschal.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

A large barrier to orbital routes is ticketing, most people who use orbital routes would be changing bus. We live in the western world's last bastion of non integrated ticketing, surely that needs to be addressed.

Most people using orbital routes in that way would be covered by weekly capping on LEAP or using monthly/annual tickets.

StreetLight

hmmm wrote: »

If only he was in power he could make changes rather than wishing for things.

On the other hand, people have been criticising politicians for years for their interference on general transport issues.

Vic_08

mortimer33 wrote: »

I've always wondered by Dublin Bus doesn't have orbital bus routes that use interchange stations to link up with radial routes... The ideal scenario would be to have multiple radial routes passing through each interchange station. An interchange station doesn't have to be anything fancy - just a big bus shelter !!

thomasj wrote: »

Personally an orbital route would stop at limited stops used as interchange. Isn't there a bus lane on the m50? (There was one planned)

It could be swords > airport > ballymun > finglas > blanchardstown centre > Liffey valley > tallaght square > dundrum and dun laoghaire

Something like that

Terrontress wrote: »

There needs to be high frequency orbital bus doing Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Ranelagh, Donnybrook, Ballsbridge, Ringsend, Point, Drumcondra, Phibsborough, Cabra etc etc and right the way round to Harold's Cross again. Frequency every five minutes.

That's the orbital route I'd like to see.

mortimer33 wrote: »

I agree with the point about limited interchange stops however I don't agree with the locations.. I would argue that an interchange stop should be picked based on the radial route destination offering. By basing an interchange station somewhere like Swords/Ballymun you're not offering a traveler much in terms of further travel - however an interchange stop at Whitehall Church could offer access to routes (1, 33, 41C, 41B, 41C, 16, 16C, 44,41, 740, Airport buses), So someone could switch and travel to the Airport, Swords, Balbriggan, Dublin city etc.. Also someone from Swords or Balbriggan could hop off a radial route at Whitehall and hop on the orbital route to keep them away from the city center..

devnull wrote: »

To be fair, the comments about the routes all going to city centre and not enough orbital routes that he made are spot on.

To be fair, as usual people are free with the crayons but all this has to be paid for and does anyone really thimk this government are planning to fund any of this?

I would invite all those above with grand orbital plans to actually put some effort into it. Do timetable it, add actual locations and specific routes, allow for peak time traffic and the (no doubt high) frequency you demand then calculate the number of buses and drivers needed.

Oh and don't forget to multiply that by however many other routes would be needed to come anywhere close to catering for the multitude of orbital journeys made in Dublin, not forgetting of course that if these routes do not provide competitive journey times to private car alternatives they will be considered a complete failure by most of your target customer base.

markpb

StreetLight wrote:

On the other hand, people have been criticising politicians for years for their interference on general transport issues.

Funding and promoting are not interfering.

StreetLight

markpb wrote: »

Funding and promoting are not interfering.

But sticking their oar in, instead of letting those charged with providing transport services do so (and properly funding those services, if appropriate), is.

mortimer33

Vic_08 wrote: »

To be fair, as usual people are free with the crayons but all this has to be paid for and does anyone really thimk this government are planning to fund any of this?

whats the alternative? Another lane on the M50 ?

LXFlyer

mortimer33 wrote: »

whats the alternative? Another lane on the M50 ?

Well what solution would you suggest, bearing in mind the outline plans developed by the NTA above?

Vic_08 is making the point that developing orbital routes is nowhere near as straightforward as developing radial routes, as most people's orbital journeys are different, and that there is a far greater likelihood of requiring one or more connections en route. The more connections, the less likely people are going to use public transport.

More orbital routes are definitely necessary, particularly in west and south Dublin, but there is a limit to what public transport can deliver for such journeys.

MGWR

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It was called the DART Underground and the same dickhead cancelled it. Remember?

What new railway routes was "DART Underground" creating? Oh yes, none. Just connecting two routes that were already connected.

MGWR

the groutch wrote: »

The problem is the NTA are still only half-assing the whole Network Direct.
Keeping buses running through housing estates (or along narrow streets not designed to take buses) to pander to a vocal minority is what's holding back Dublin Bus' potential efficiency.

Those housing estates and "roads (allegedly) not designed to take buses" have had buses for decades. Those routes are not the problem. The politicians who always have to meddle with the routes rather than improve the infrastructure (dropping speed ramps everywhere and making formerly wide streets narrow are not improvements) are.

So what about ND would get people out of their cars, again?

MGWR

StreetLight wrote: »

Transport Minister admits there is a traffic problem, wants to offer commuters alternatives to sitting in their cars for hours

Newstalk

Network Direct 2.0 ??

There is a quote often attributed to Einstein that claims the definition of madness to be trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If this really is a rehash of ND rather than a repair job, expect the same news headlines another three years after the new scheme fails.

patrickbrophy18

The one key factor which currently makes public transport significantly less attractive than the car is the time it takes to get from A to B. For anyone working in Citywest and living in Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey or further south, this requires traveling into the city by DART only to come out the other end by Luas. From experience, this journey takes 2 hours each way. On the other hand, by car it only takes 30 minutes thanks to the M50. Aside from the odd accident which causes severe tailbacks, that is a whole 3 hours which someone gets back in their day to day life. This means more personal time, better flexibility and longer sleeps.:D

Given the ever increasing amount of jobs springing up within a 2 to 3 mile radius of the M50, the demand for orbital travel is (obviously) also rising. To date, many of the orbital bus routes such as the 17 and 75 take between 80 to 90 minutes from their point of departure to their terminus. This is due in large part to the practice of meandering through housing estates and other side roads. Another flaw which cripples the performance is the excessive amount of stops along the way. If a change is being made at either end of the journey, it could easily end up taking over 2 hours. When a car can do the end to end journey in a quarter of the time, people will opt for the car.

Even if the public transport alternative tried to meet half-way (i.e. an hour), more people would consider making the switch. However, as of yet, any effort to that effect has been non-existent. Now, I know that the new Dundrum to Dublin Airport route is still going through a bedding in period. But, it will certainly be a good test to see if any limited stop orbital service can reduce the abysmally long tailbacks southbound in the AM and northbound in the PM. Either-way, it all comes back to one thing and that is how long it takes to get from A to B. In other words, journey time is key.

Vic_08

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The one key factor which currently makes public transport significantly less attractive than the car is the time it takes to get from A to B. For anyone working in Citywest and living in Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey or further south, this requires traveling into the city by DART only to come out the other end by Luas. From experience, this journey takes 2 hours each way. On the other hand, by car it only takes 30 minutes thanks to the M50. Aside from the odd accident which causes severe tailbacks, that is a whole 3 hours which someone gets back in their day to day life. This means more personal time, better flexibility and longer sleeps.:D

Given the ever increasing amount of jobs springing up within a 2 to 3 mile radius of the M50, the demand for orbital travel is (obviously) also rising. To date, many of the orbital bus routes such as the 17 and 75 take between 80 to 90 minutes from their point of departure to their terminus. This is due in large part to the practice of meandering through housing estates and other side roads. Another flaw which cripples the performance is the excessive amount of stops along the way. If a change is being made at either end of the journey, it could easily end up taking over 2 hours. When a car can do the end to end journey in a quarter of the time, people will opt for the car.

Even if the public transport alternative tried to meet half-way (i.e. an hour), more people would consider making the switch. However, as of yet, any effort to that effect has been non-existent. Now, I know that the new Dundrum to Dublin Airport route is still going through a bedding in period. But, it will certainly be a good test to see if any limited stop orbital service can reduce the abysmally long tailbacks southbound in the AM and northbound in the PM. Either-way, it all comes back to one thing and that is how long it takes to get from A to B. In other words, journey time is key.

You really think that a single coach service costing €14 for a return fare (no €1 fare on this Dublin Coach service, I wonder why) is going to have a noticeable effect on M50 rush hour traffic? Really?

Again I will direct you to the question I asked previous posters; provide a realistic outline of this service and the resources needed, then extrapolate it to fit a significant % of orbital commuter journeys in the GDA.

Nichard Dixon

The M50 needs a universal toll, higher at peak, lower at off peak together with express bus services at peak costing less than the toll.

LeinsterDub

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

The M50 needs a universal toll, higher at peak, lower at off peak together with express bus services at peak costing less than the toll.

All that will do in generate revenue. The crash last week showed how utterly dependent on the m50 the city is

braniganl

It's the lack of priority or thought given to buses that irks me the most. Buses are by far the biggest people movers in the city but are treated like the poor relation after private cars, taxis, Luas and even bikes now. Major cross city routes like my own 13 are forced into using bus lanes that suddenly merge back into regular lane tailbacks in the morning and evenings. Major corridors like the north quays are a joke with bus lane and stop placement. Buses sit for an age at traffic lights as private cars sail through junctions.

Simple, hard to mess up things like bus stops are half arsed afterthoughts. Major stops in the city center are oversubscribed by Dublin Bus services alone, yet are still allowed to be used as taxi and private coach stands, forcing people out onto roads to board and exit buses. It's an absolute joke, and as long as idiots like the esteemed minister continue to be fed advice by overpaid, gombeen civil servants who've never used a bus in their lives, it will remain that way.

LXFlyer

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The one key factor which currently makes public transport significantly less attractive than the car is the time it takes to get from A to B. For anyone working in Citywest and living in Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey or further south, this requires traveling into the city by DART only to come out the other end by Luas. From experience, this journey takes 2 hours each way. On the other hand, by car it only takes 30 minutes thanks to the M50. Aside from the odd accident which causes severe tailbacks, that is a whole 3 hours which someone gets back in their day to day life. This means more personal time, better flexibility and longer sleeps.:D

Given the ever increasing amount of jobs springing up within a 2 to 3 mile radius of the M50, the demand for orbital travel is (obviously) also rising. To date, many of the orbital bus routes such as the 17 and 75 take between 80 to 90 minutes from their point of departure to their terminus. This is due in large part to the practice of meandering through housing estates and other side roads. Another flaw which cripples the performance is the excessive amount of stops along the way. If a change is being made at either end of the journey, it could easily end up taking over 2 hours. When a car can do the end to end journey in a quarter of the time, people will opt for the car.

Even if the public transport alternative tried to meet half-way (i.e. an hour), more people would consider making the switch. However, as of yet, any effort to that effect has been non-existent. Now, I know that the new Dundrum to Dublin Airport route is still going through a bedding in period. But, it will certainly be a good test to see if any limited stop orbital service can reduce the abysmally long tailbacks southbound in the AM and northbound in the PM. Either-way, it all comes back to one thing and that is how long it takes to get from A to B. In other words, journey time is key.

The 17 and 75 link up major traffic generators and that's why they take the routes that they do.

The 17 links Blackrock DART with the N11 and UCD, and then links UCD with Dundrum, Churchtown, Rathfarnham and Terenure. It also links up a lot of schools along the route. At the western end it offers a local link between communities in Rialto, Dolphin's Barn, Kimmage and Crumlin. You can't look at the 17 as an end to end route - it's mainly used for trips along sections of the route.

Similarly the 75 links shopping centres in Tallaght, Rathfarnham, Nutgrove, Dundrum, Stillorgan and Dun Laoghaire with residential communities en route, along with Tallaght Hospital and Sandyford Business Park.

Who would you see using the southern end of the Cityscape Dublin Airport to Dundrum service as a commuter?

It costs €4 or €7 each way depending upon how far you travel, meaning a daily cost of €8 or €14. That does not lend itself towards being a commuting option, particularly as it would inevitably require further transport to/from Red Cow (which would be limited to LUAS). That would mean a further cost of nearly €3 a day.

Add to all of this, the service doesn't accept LEAP, so no LEAP90 discount.

That fare is fine for people going on a one off trip to/from the Airport, but it certainly does not lend itself towards being a commuting option.

From the numbers that I've seen on it, the take up is very low. The fact that it misses the peak departures and arrivals periods at Dublin Airport sums it up to be honest and I'm afraid to say that I can't see it lasting.

For any orbital service to work along the M50 corridor, it has to be integrated with existing transport services, offer LEAP, and be part of the existing fare structure. Otherwise it simply won't be an option for most commuters.

lil5

braniganl wrote: »

It's the lack of priority or thought given to buses that irks me the most. Buses are by far the biggest people movers in the city but are treated like the poor relation after private cars, taxis, Luas and even bikes now.

Where there's a will, there's a way ...


http://www.tz.de/muenchen/stadt/bus-linien-50-60-sollen-schneller-ziel-5819037.html

Google Translate

For this, the lights are re-clocked - a green wave! 22 plants must renew for the Building Department. According to Munich Transport Company (MVG) half of which would in any case need to be replaced. ...

The 50 bus is his nine-minutes faster at the finish, the 60 to three, according to MVG calculations. The 50-line would thus even save a bus to get to other [lines] for use.

In 2005, the city council had taken the decision in principle to make all bus lines faster. ... 16 lines have already been optimized, thus has the MVG saved 15 vehicles. The bottom line customers thus have a time saving of a total of 117 minutes. About half of all 800 traffic lights in the capital has already been converted.

and as an aside ...
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/tram-und-u-bahn-passagiere-muessen-immer-oefter-warten-1.2627227
Google Translate

As unpunctual applies a train or bus at MVG if it is more than two minutes behind schedule. German Rail however registered a commuter train, a regional or long-distance train only as punctual when he was six minutes or more late.