Changes/traumas/fears we acquire can be passed onto our kids/grandkids

steddyeddy

I realise this is After Hours but I think this bit of news has very broad implications. There's a field of study called epigenetics that has been in vogue recently. Basically genetics tells us that our DNA gets reshuffled and passed down to our kids. Half (roughly) comes from our mother and half from our father. DNA codes for skin, eye and hair colour and other physical characteristics. The prevailing wisdom told us that changes that happen to us in our lifetime such as post traumatic stress disorder, smoking damage, heartbreak, acquired fears or whatever else cannot be passed onto our children.

Over the last few decades scientists have found evidence that goes against that. There were three important moments that defined this research,

1. Studies conducted on the Swedish town of Överkalix. This was a town near the Arctic Circle and prone to famine. The grandchildren of those who lived through famine were found to be more prone to metabolic disease than the descendants of those who lived in relatively better times.

2. Children born to mothers who were in the vicinity of the 9/11 attacks were born with higher cortisol levels and were more prone to anxiety.

3. Grandchildren of holocaust survivors were more prone to stress and anxiety.

Interestingly studies show that negative experiences we have with animals, associated with certain smells and physical aspects like heights and fire can result in our grandchildren having phobias of those things even if they never experienced them themselves.

Study below. This might be a too long to read for some people but the take away message is very important. The experiences our parents and grandparents have can shape our moods, health and outlook on life. There's more being passed on the the genes. The amount you smoke in life will affect your grandchildren's health, the happiness of the life you lead can be inherited and the moods you carry around with you could be a result of a heartbreak your ancestor felt years ago. Senses of losses might not be yours but the distant "memory of some war a ancestor might have been in". I think this is fascinating as it connects us with our ancestors in a way not thought possible before.

Link to article "descendants Holocaust survivors have altered stress hormones" in Scientific American here.

MilesMorales1

Man you make a lot of topics in AH.

on topic - maybe its more of a psychological thing than physically passing changes on, I dunno.

steddyeddy

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

Man you make a lot of topics in AH.

on topic - maybe its more of a psychological thing than physically passing changes on, I dunno.

I have a very active mind.

Well they found the mechanism of inheritance. One of the DNA bases (A, T, C and G) gets methylated, I.E one carbon attached to three hydrogen atoms is added to one of the bases in response to some event. That marks the gene and tells affects the way it is read. These carbon markers get passed on.

So it's more a case of physical alterations being passed on and affecting psychological states in future generations.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

These are fundamentally personality traits and it has been known for decades that some aspects of our personalities are largely controlled by genetics. There's really nothing startling or new in the OP.

steddyeddy

Sophie Handsome Clip wrote: »

These are fundamentally personality traits and it has been known for decades that some aspects of our personalities are largely controlled by genetics. There's really nothing startling or new in the OP.

That's a really massive understanding of the implications here S. People most certainly didn't know trauma could be passed on. Even more importantly people strongly denied that acquired characteristics can be passed on.

Fleawuss

Shocking revelations OP. This science **** really works.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

You are falling in to a statistical quagmire here. Studies have also refuted some of those examples. There are hereditary traits around anxiety and stress but the causal issues are unproven. e.g. As a whole grandchildren of holocaust survivors are no more prone to stress that the population as a whole, according to wider studies (sorry no links).

The 9/11 example was also a very limited study.

Yes stress and anxiety can be passed to descendants but the general thinking is that the cause is unproven and unlikely to have been a single event in a single generation.

This is a huge and complicated field, so I'll bow out of it here as AH by it's very nature isn't my choice of venue for it.

steddyeddy

Sophie Handsome Clip wrote: »

You are falling in to a statistical quagmire here. Studies have also refuted some of those examples. There are hereditary traits around anxiety and stress but the causal issues are unproven. e.g. As a whole grandchildren of holocaust survivors are no more prone to stress that the population as a whole, according to wider studies (sorry no links).

The 9/11 example was also a very limited study.

Yes stress and anxiety can be passed to descendants but the general thinking is that the cause is unproven and unlikely to have been a single event in a single generation.

This is a huge and complicated field, so I'll bow out of it here as AH by it's very nature isn't my choice of venue for it.

S if you're refuting a scientific consensus the protocol isn't to fail to provide links and bow out of the conversation. I can't just take your word for it.

dar100

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's a really massive understanding of the implications here S. People most certainly didn't know trauma could be passed on. Even more importantly people strongly denied that acquired characteristics can be passed on.

Certain family therapies have been saying this for years

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

steddyeddy wrote: »

S if you're refuting a scientific consensus that protocol isn't to fail to provide links and bow out of the conversation. I can't just take your word for it.

I don't give a toss if you take my word for anything or not. This is the failing of a discussion here - that everything demands a link to some site or other. Ever read a book or a paper report on a piece research? Not every piece of work is available to link. So carry on with limited reference. I studied this field for years but I can't send you photos of the relevant pages of the books on my shelves.

Hence, I said this is not the place, for me personally, for a discussion of such complexity as genetics.

Kurtosis

The link in the OP doesn't seem to be working (for me anyway), could you repost it?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

penguin88 wrote: »

The link in the OP doesn't seem to be working (for me anyway), could you repost it?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/descendants-of-holocaust-survivors-have-altered-stress-hormones/

AND this does not link to the scientific papers quoted. It's just a media report.

steddyeddy

dar100 wrote: »

Certain family therapies have been saying this for years

Yes they have actually. Trans generational psychology has also been studying this for years. A lot of people have been proved right.

Maternal stress in rats and primates has been observed to provoke a response from the fetal pituitary, and can trigger an inflammatory response that affects brain development. It's thought that similar in humans may be a factor in behavioural problems.

In humans, fetal stress receptors have been noted as affected by extreme maternal stress, and this is thought to affect their ability to deal with stress themselves.

I imagine there are difficulties in assessing psychological and environmental influences and separating them from the biology in determining the extent of the influence of each, but the findings are unsurprising.

steddyeddy

Sophie Handsome Clip wrote: »

I don't give a toss if you take my word for anything or not. This is the failing of a discussion here - that everything demands a link to some site or other. Ever read a book or a paper report on a piece research? Not every piece of work is available to link. So carry on with limited reference. I studied this field for years but I can't send you photos of the relevant pages of the books on my shelves.

Hence, I said this is not the place, for me personally, for a discussion of such complexity as genetics.

This is the failing of your discussion here if I may say. If you read a report or a review on a subject they have to back up the claim "studies have shown" with a link or a reference.

By the way the evidence wasn't only statistical but involved molecular genetics and biochemical evidence. I don't accept your refutation or believe you have backed it up or can TBH.

The_Valeyard

I hate all use of that word 'vogue'

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

Maternal stress in rats and primates has been observed to provoke a response from the fetal pituitary, and can trigger an inflammatory response that affects brain development. It's thought that similar in humans may be a factor in behavioural problems.

Indeed. It goes far beyond statistical evidence.

In humans, fetal stress receptors have been noted as affected by extreme maternal stress, and this is thought to affect their ability to deal with stress themselves.

Yep.

I imagine there are difficulties in assessing psychological and environmental influences and separating them from the biology in determining the extent of the influence of each, but the findings are unsurprising.

I think it's a mistake to separate psychology from biology at all.

One eyed Jack

steddyeddy wrote: »

This is the failing of your discussion here if I may say. If you read a report or a review on a subject they have to back up the claim "studies have shown" with a link or a reference.

Hmm...

steddyeddy wrote: »

Interestingly studies show that negative experiences we have with animals, associated with certain smells and physical aspects like heights and fire can result in our grandchildren having phobias of those things even if they never experienced them themselves.

I see no links nor references there eddy

By the way the evidence wasn't only statistical but involved molecular genetics and biochemical evidence. I don't accept your refutation or believe you have backed it up or can TBH.

I think the last line in the article sums it up really -

Yet it is still too early in our investigation into the epigenetics of this complex stress-response system to know for sure whether these molecular changes indicate any real-world risks or benefits. “If you are looking for it all to be logical and fall into place perfectly, it isn't going to yet,” Yehuda says. “We are just at the beginning of understanding this.”

The idea has been around for decades though, certainly popularised by Richard Dawkins "The Selfish Gene", and the study of memetics, so there isn't anything breakthrough or revolutionary here at all really. My only concern is that researchers could fall foul of the correlation/causation fallacy, as so often seems to happen with studies where epidemiology, epigenetics and evolution are concerned.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think it's a mistake to separate psychology from biology at all.

Ooooh! Ouch!

I was just about to ask your opinion on the whole new and emerging field within the social sciences of evolutionary psychology. I personally don't think much of it myself tbh, and some of my criticisms of it are found in this particular article -

Criticism of evolutionary psychology


Also, I would be interested to understand how these studies tie in with the idea of neuroplasticity?


.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

steddyeddy wrote: »

This is the failing of your discussion here if I may say. If you read a report or a review on a subject they have to back up the claim "studies have shown" with a link or a reference.

By the way the evidence wasn't only statistical but involved molecular genetics and biochemical evidence. I don't accept your refutation or believe you have backed it up or can TBH.

The Scientific American article does not give links to the study either. It's just a media article. Sauce for the goose...