Giving two different doses to a cow

drawnacrol

Instead of waiting 6-8 weeks to dose animals so the fluke have matured is it possible to mix two different types of oral drenches.

Albex will hit fluke eggs + adult fluke while Tribex will hit mature, immature and early immature fluke.

So if you gave a dose of each to an animal, one a time a few minutes apart would that work and kill all the fluke and parasites in their system?

Parishlad

Could be wrong here but thought that Albex would only do for adult liver fluke. Need something like Fasinex for early immature and immature fluke.

patsy_mccabe

I was looking in to all these yesterday on www.hpra.ie.

Apparently, only Triclabendazole based doses like Fasinex will cover all 3 stages of Liverfluke.

Trodax (Nitroxynil) will cover the last 2 stages, Mature and Immature.

Zanil and Levafas Diamond (both are Oxyclozanide) only cover the last stage, Mature.
Same for Closemectin (Closantel) and Ivomec Siper (Clorsulon).

Base price

drawnacrol wrote: »

Instead of waiting 6-8 weeks to dose animals so the fluke have matured is it possible to mix two different types of oral drenches.

Albex will hit fluke eggs + adult fluke while Tribex will hit mature, immature and early immature fluke.

So if you gave a dose of each to an animal, one a time a few minutes apart would that work and kill all the fluke and parasites in their system?

I imagine that the chemical companies could produce a combined dose that covers all stages but I reckon that the stress on the animal would be too severe and would probably trigger pneumonia or worse.
If they were my cattle I would not attempt it.

welton john

Base price wrote: »

I imagine that the chemical companies could produce a combined dose that covers all stages but I reckon that the stress on the animal would be too severe and would probably trigger pneumonia or worse.
If they were my cattle I would not attempt it.

Totally agree.wouldn't dream of mixing them. Know a lad who gave albex and zanil(or some similar mix)on the same day. He ended up loosing 3 cattle with severe nerve damage

Bullocks

Good thread lads . How long should you wait to be sure they are all mature enough to be killed .
What's yer dosing regime and what do ye find is cost effective?
I'm not great at dosing but what I found last year was I gave them two copper injections while they were in and one more going out and they all looked the better for it .
Is it possible for the vet to mix up dose with a vitamin drench so to get them all with one shot so to speak

freedominacup

We're bulk milk sampling for disease/infections. No fluke in cows all year. Albex at dry off/housing and at calving. Clear out the real problem at housing and nail anything you miss a calving.

Edit; in fairness our land would not be inclined to be flukey. Dry ground and no access for cattle to watercourses. Our regime might well be useless in a more susceptible area.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Bullocks wrote: »

Good thread lads . How long should you wait to be sure they are all mature enough to be killed .
What's yer dosing regime and what do ye find is cost effective?
I'm not great at dosing but what I found last year was I gave them two copper injections while they were in and one more going out and they all looked the better for it .
Is it possible for the vet to mix up dose with a vitamin drench so to get them all with one shot so to speak

My vet recommends waiting at least 10 days from housing and then use Fascinex/other Triclabendixole for fluke and the eggs will have mostly hatched and be at the susceptible stage for dosing.

I have no idea about the white drenches and how long to wait for fluke dosing.

I wouldn't ever, ever give 2 doses together, you never know how they would react together in the stomach.

patsy_mccabe

I've always waited about 4 to 6 weeks after housing the suckler cows and the few weanlings. Always used Trodax for fluke and Noromectin for worms and lice.
What was concerning me was build up of immunity to Trodax and not covering for Stomach Fluke.

I would NEVER double dose though. Heard of a guy that killed an animal by doing it twice, by accident, with Levafas Diamond.

Greysides might be the right man for all this...:cool:

Bullocks

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Greysides might be the right man for all this...:cool:

He would , and really I suppose we should be getting ten minutes with our own vets to get them to give localised advice . Our vet was to do a plan for me when he got time !
Our vets are actually giving a sheep talk next week that will cover all this craic for sheep , hopefully they'll have a cattle one aswell .

Parishlad

Bullocks wrote: »

Good thread lads . How long should you wait to be sure they are all mature enough to be killed .
What's yer dosing regime and what do ye find is cost effective?
I'm not great at dosing but what I found last year was I gave them two copper injections while they were in and one more going out and they all looked the better for it .
Is it possible for the vet to mix up dose with a vitamin drench so to get them all with one shot so to speak

My plan is as follows (right or wrong):

- Cattle will be housed 2 weeks before they get anything. (That's as much to do with me not having time to do them more than anything else. Otherwise I would dose for worms and do them for lice as soon as possible after housing.)

- Cows (sucklers) will get Albex for worms and Trodax for fluke. Will repeat Trodax again in 4/6 weeks to ensure immature fluke present now is caught later. **I'm assuming it's ok to give Albex and Trodax on same day. I'll be talking to the Vet tomorrow so i will ask.

- Cows also done for lice

- I have also got Zanil as I have a feeling some of them have stomach/rumen fluke. Don't want to give this the same time as Albex so will wait at least a week between these doses.

- Weanlings: Was just going to do them with Albex now for worms. Again I will ask the Vet tomorrow about what he recommends. Weanlings will be done for lice also of course.

Bull: Depends on whether or not I can get him up the crush!!:D:D

J.O. Farmer

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I was looking in to all these yesterday on www.hpra.ie.

Apparently, only Triclabendazole based doses like Fasinex will cover all 3 stages of Liverfluke.

Trodax (Nitroxynil) will cover the last 2 stages, Mature and Immature.

Zanil and Levafas Diamond (both are Oxyclozanide) only cover the last stage, Mature.
Same for Closemectin (Closantel) and Ivomec Siper (Clorsulon).

Are you sure that closantel doesn't cover late immature fluke similar to Trodax. The triclabendazole will kill susceptible fluke from 3 days although certain parts of the country had resistance years ago. I stand to be corrected but I think the resistance persists for years and years after the dose has stopped being used. Where it works its the best dose.
In relation to the OP's question I agree with everyone else about not mixing the dose. I think the best thing to do is wait a week and use Fasinex or if using a product that covers older fluke dose at housing and again after whatever length it takes fluke to hatch and become susceptible say 6 weeks (check actual length on product.
That said it's probably best to take advice from the local vet with respect to the dosing regime.

Brown Podzol

Fasinex Super is for the simultaneous treatment and control of mature and developing immature infections of stomach worms, gut worms and lung worms as well as all forms of liver fluke infection early immature, immature and adult stages in cattle. Mixed and all for you.:p

Dunedin

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Fasinex Super is for the simultaneous treatment and control of mature and developing immature infections of stomach worms, gut worms and lung worms as well as all forms of liver fluke infection early immature, immature and adult stages in cattle. Mixed and all for you.:p

OP was referencing mixing 2 doses for fluke

Certainly do not go with 2 doses at the one time especially containing Levafas Diamond of which is a hard enough dose on cattle on its own.

There are a few ‘white’ doses that do all 3 stages of Liver fluke – Endofluke, Fasinex, Curafluke. All will do the job – just leave the cattle in for 2 weeks and you will catch all. Trodax is a good injection and will catch all after 3-4 weeks. Personal choice versus cost which you want to go for i.e. dose versus injection.

I think it’s better to get in as early as possible so therefore the dose after 2 weeks is best. Endofluke is excellent and is also very cheap. I never agree with ‘Adult’ fluke only one’s because it takes 12 weeks for fluke to reach adult stage so they are in the shed 3 months with a lot of damage done to the liver in that time. Granted you will get the stomach fluke and the liver fluke but 12 weeks is too long in my view – better to do them at the 2 weeks and then do them separately afterwards for the stomach fluke if necessary.

No issue in injecting for worms at the same time and don’t forget about lice – Bimectin is a cheap but effective – both lung and round worms and lice.

All of the above said, the best money spent is on dung samples and you know exactly what you are dosing for then.

Kovu

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Greysides might be the right man for all this...:cool:

Indeed. I'm going to close this until he resurfaces and can get his expert opinion. Personally I wouldn't dose any animal with two separate mixes at once, but I am not a vet. Last thing we want is dead stock and fingers being pointed at this thread saying ''But s/he said it was ok.

Alri?

greysides

There's a few points to make on posts in this thread but to start with...

drawnacrol wrote: »

Instead of waiting 6-8 weeks to dose animals so the fluke have matured is it possible to mix two different types of oral drenches.

Albex will hit fluke eggs + adult fluke while Tribex will hit mature, immature and early immature fluke.

So if you gave a dose of each to an animal, one a time a few minutes apart would that work and kill all the fluke and parasites in their system?

Ignoring fluke eggs, which are a bit irrelevant as killing the adults will stop egg production anyway, Tribex (triclabendazole) will kill everything Albex (albendzole) will and more. Purely from the point of view of dealing with fluke, there's no point in using them together.

Using Albex at a worm only dose level with Tribex, in order to cover all stages of worms along with fluke, should be safe. That statement is based on reading the datasheets and noting, in both:

4.8 Interaction with other medicinal products and other forms of interaction
None known.

In general, flukicide pharmaceuticals should be used with care as to exceeding recommended dosage levels.

On the other hand, triclabendazole is a member of the benzimidazole family (as is albendazole) and they are reasonably safe in terms of overdosage.

greysides

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Zanil and Levafas Diamond (both are Oxyclozanide) only cover the last stage, Mature.
Same for Closamectin (Closantel) and Ivomec Super (Clorsulon).

From the Closamectin datasheet:

Liver Fluke (trematodes)
Fasciola gigantica, Fasciola hepatica
Treatment of fluke at 12 weeks (mature) >99% efficacy.
Treatment of fluke from 7 weeks (late immature) >90% efficacy

Closamectin is a step above Ivomec Super in dealing with fluke as it gets more than just adult fluke.

It gets late immature at >90% efficiency, but it also gets earlier immatures with a lesser efficiency.
It kills 43% at 4 and a half weeks rising to >90% at 7 weeks. The fluke not killed are stunted (44% reduction in size, 36% reduction in reproductive capacity).

greysides

Bullocks wrote: »

Good thread lads . How long should you wait to be sure they are all mature enough to be killed .

Roughly:

To get all fluke after housing with one dose:

Zanil, Albendazole, Clorsulon... 12 weeks

Trodax, Flukiver (Closantel)..... 6 weeks

Triclabendazole..... 2 weeks.

Is it possible for the vet to mix up dose with a vitamin drench so to get them all with one shot so to speak

That would be illegal under current legislation.

greysides

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

The triclabendazole will kill susceptible fluke from 3 days although certain parts of the country had resistance years ago. I stand to be corrected but I think the resistance persists for years and years after the dose has stopped being used. Where it works its the best dose.

I think triclabendazole is efficient enough to be used against fluke from 2 weeks housed in cattle, and, I believe, 2 days in sheep.

What I've heard about triclabendazole problems is that the ingredient in the dose requires activation in the liver to become effective and if the liver is already buggered enough then that isn't going to happen.

greysides

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Fasinex Super is for the simultaneous treatment and control of mature and developing immature infections of stomach worms, gut worms and lung worms as well as all forms of liver fluke infection early immature, immature and adult stages in cattle. Mixed and all for you.:p

Fasinex Super is a mixture of Fasinex (triclabendazole) and levamisole.

The datasheet says:

For the simultaneous treatment and control of mature and developing immature infections of stomach worms
(Haemonchus, Ostertagia, Trichostrongylus axei), gut worms (Trichostrongylus, Cooperia, Nematodirus, Bunostomum,
Oesophagostomum) and lung worms (Dictyocaulus) as well as all forms of liver fluke infection (early immature, immature
and adult stages of Fasciola hepatica and Fasciola gigantica) in cattle.

What it doesn't do is kill inhibited L4 stomach worm larvae.

The Albex datasheet says:

In cattle it is active against the following species:
Roundworms: Ostertagia, Haemonchus, Trichostrongylus, Nematodirus, Oesophagostomum, Bunostomum, Cooperia and
Strongyloides spp.. It is usually effective against inhibited larvae of Cooperia and Ostertagia.

I wouldn't suggest using Fasinex Super for winter-housed cattle where inhibited worms need to be controlled.

What are Inhibited worms?

In the late summer and autumn, a steadily increasing proportion of ingested stomach worm larvae burrow into the intestinal wall and 'hibernate' over the winter rather than becoming active in the gut lumen as would have been happening prior to this.
In the Spring these inhibited worms become active and return to the gut lumen, causing a condition known as 'Spring Scours' and contaminating pasture early in the grazing year.
If the number of inhibited larvae in the gut wall is particularly huge then they can cause scour earlier in the winter.

J.O. Farmer

greysides wrote: »

What I've heard about triclabendazole problems is that the ingredient in the dose requires activation in the liver to become effective and if the liver is already buggered enough then that isn't going to happen.

Your correct in that the liver does break down triclabendazole to an active form and in badly damaged livers this will not occur.
however I am referring to a resistant strain of fluke. I have seen studies referring to the Sligo strain of triclabendazole resistant fluke and believe that Fasinex would not have been recommended in parts of the country for sheep anyway.
The below is a link to an abstract of one such study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23597772

greysides

Dunedin wrote: »

There are a few ‘white’ doses that do all 3 stages of Liver fluke – Endofluke, Fasinex, Curafluke. All will do the job – just leave the cattle in for 2 weeks and you will catch all. Trodax is a good injection and will catch all after 3-4 weeks. Personal choice versus cost which you want to go for i.e. dose versus injection.

Endofluke and Fasinex have the same active ingredient, triclabendazole, and will get fluke after two weeks of housing.

Curafluke is fenbendazole (Panacur) and rafoxanide (Flukanide). Fenbendazole is perfect for winter dosing for worms but rafoxanide is only active against fluke from 8 weeks in the animal.

I never agree with ‘Adult’ fluke only one’s because it takes 12 weeks for fluke to reach adult stage so they are in the shed 3 months with a lot of damage done to the liver in that time. Granted you will get the stomach fluke and the liver fluke but 12 weeks is too long in my view – better to do them at the 2 weeks and then do them separately afterwards for the stomach fluke if necessary.

Of the adult only flukicides, albendazole and oxyclozanide (Zanil), only the oxyclozanide is active against adult Stomach fluke.

greysides

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

The below is a link to an abstract of one such study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23597772

Thanks.

danjoe

Does anyone get dung samples tested for fluke and worms at housing time?

Injuryprone

I did my in calf heifers with tramazole and endofluke together last week. I can report that they're all still alive and have not shown any adverse reaction to the double dose.