Luas Red Line - Late Night Christmas Services Returning

Jamie2k9

PLANS are in progress to introduce a late-night Luas service on the Red Line for the Christmas period.

The lack of late-night trams to areas such as Rialto and Tallaght during the festive season caused outrage last year.

Following a review, operators have opted to introduce the service this year in a bid to see what demand is like.

The proposal has yet to be approved by Transport Infrastructure Ireland, but a decision is expected shortly.

http://www.herald.ie/news/luas-plans-to-have-a-latenight-christmas-service-for-red-line-34180914.html

Vic_08

"Crimelink"

Rakish Paddy

Late night service on the red line? I hope they'll put on some extra security! (and I say that as a regular user of the red line myself).

Jamie2k9

Rakish Paddy wrote:

Late night service on the red line? I hope they'll put on some extra security! (and I say that as a regular user of the red line myself).

Would expect each tram (30 min freq) will have pair of security onboard who don't actually get off.

If it does happen it will pile pressure on Irish Rail to have Kildare line services out of Heuston.

braniganl

Only fair IMO. Both lines should either have late night festive services or none at all.

Jamie2k9

braniganl wrote: »

Only fair IMO. Both lines should either have late night festive services or none at all.

What rubbish, it's like saying that every single bus/train stop across Ireland should have late night services.

It's simple "use it or lose it"

LeinsterDub

So plans are in progress as of the 11th November! The early Christmas must of taken them by surprise this year. No wait that's easter

braniganl

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What rubbish, it's like saying that every single bus/train stop across Ireland should have late night services.

It's simple "use it or lose it"

What are you on about ? the reason the red line hasn't had a xmas service for years and the green line has is nothing to do with passenger numbers. If Veolia/transdev actually ran a red line xmas service people would most definitely use it instead if paying 20+ quid for a taxi to the likes of Tallaght, Clondalkin or Citywest.

Veolia/transdev just haven't bothered because it would require more security than the green. Which is fairly crap for the majority of well behaved passengers from the (less wealthy) areas the red line serves. If Luas wants to run xmas services they should have to run both lines equally. Would be like Dublin Bus only running nightlink services to the southside.

Jamie2k9

braniganl wrote: »

What are you on about ? the reason the red line hasn't had a xmas service for years and the green line has is nothing to do with passenger numbers. If Veolia/transdev actually ran a red line xmas service people would most definitely use it instead if paying 20+ quid for a taxi to the likes of Tallaght, Clondalkin or Citywest.

Veolia/transdev just haven't bothered because it would require more security than the green. Which is fairly crap for the majority of well behaved passengers from the (less wealthy) areas the red line serves. If Luas wants to run xmas services they should have to run both lines equally. Would be like Dublin Bus only running nightlink services to the southside.

It comes down to profit, they must at the very least meet operating costs which will include more security which must be factored. If a lot of things ran they would be used but it comes down to costs of providing and the return the operator gets.

LXFlyer

braniganl wrote: »

What are you on about ? the reason the red line hasn't had a xmas service for years and the green line has is nothing to do with passenger numbers. If Veolia/transdev actually ran a red line xmas service people would most definitely use it instead if paying 20+ quid for a taxi to the likes of Tallaght, Clondalkin or Citywest.

Veolia/transdev just haven't bothered because it would require more security than the green. Which is fairly crap for the majority of well behaved passengers from the (less wealthy) areas the red line serves. If Luas wants to run xmas services they should have to run both lines equally. Would be like Dublin Bus only running nightlink services to the southside.

Actually it is to do with passenger numbers.

Transdev have already stated publically on several occasions that the reason they haven't operated late night Red Line services is that the numbers that used them when they did operate did not justify the cost of running them.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

Actually it is to do with passenger numbers.

Transdev have already stated publically on several occasions that the reason they haven't operated late night Red Line services is that the numbers that used them when they did operate did not justify the cost of running them.

The cynic in me would suggest that they've deliberately ambushed late running by delaying the plans so late. They've not even got the plans signed off yet and the Christmas party season is about to begin and how many people will even know that the Luas is running late? Will they even have time for a ad campaign?

Badabing

I think what luas are saying is that the trams are empty past suir road etc.. and the demand isn't there to go to Tallaght. I live in Tallaght and would love to see a tram at 1.00 or 1.30 in the morning so i can relax after last orders and not worry about the last tram at 12.30. They could do that every weekend in December and the week of Xmas.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The cynic in me would suggest that they've deliberately ambushed late running by delaying the plans so late. They've not even got the plans signed off yet and the Christmas party season is about to begin and how many people will even know that the Luas is running late? Will they even have time for a ad campaign?

Too late?? Come off it.

It's only the 13th of November.

Late night Christmas services only generally operate in the two weeks prior to Christmas (last year LUAS ran from December 12th). That's four weeks away.

None of the extra Nitelinks or DART services etc. have been publicised yet.

They generally don't announce the specifics until early December each year.

Jamie2k9

I think what luas are saying is that the trams are empty past suir road etc.. and the demand isn't there to go to Tallaght. I live in Tallaght and would love to see a tram at 1.00 or 1.30 in the morning so i can relax after last orders and not worry about the last tram at 12.30. They could do that every weekend in December and the week of Xmas.

A valid point but surly Red Cow to town would be operated, I know it would be deeply unpopular but as Luas is private they don't really care about the politics element.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

A valid point but surly Red Cow to town would be operated, I know it would be deeply unpopular but as Luas is private they don't really care about the politics element.

The operator may be private, but the service is public.

The NTA dictate service levels.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

The operator may be private, but the service is public.

The NTA dictate service levels.

Not for night services, they can't force night services unless they give cash for them.

Like Nightlink it's optional and for profit only.

cgcsb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If it does happen it will pile pressure on Irish Rail to have Kildare line services out of Heuston.

Or even a DART service

Jamie2k9

cgcsb wrote: »

Or even a DART service

Dart, Maynooth and Northern Commuter have been running for the last 2 (possibly 3) Xmas/NY periods.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not for night services, they can't force night services unless they give cash for them.

Like Nightlink it's optional and for profit only.

Indeed, but I think you'll find that they would have significant influence.

cgcsb

Whatever happened to the NTA's plan to have 24hour buses on the main routes?
Disappeared into the either with the Dublin BRT proposals I suppose.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Indeed, but I think you'll find that they would have significant influence.

Influence does not always work, Irish Rail managed to not run such services for years and they are only doing it now as they make money.

The reality is the NTA are powerless unless they stamp up cash and/or have this as a specification when service contracts are renewed.

Whatever happened to the NTA's plan to have 24hour buses on the main routes?
Disappeared into the either with the Dublin BRT proposals I suppose.

Would really question viability, yes perhaps last buses out of town at around 01.00 but Nightlink does adequate job as other days it would bleed money.

cgcsb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Would really question viability, yes perhaps last buses out of town at around 01.00 but Nightlink does adequate job as other days it would bleed money.

The nightlink fares discourage use though so it's hardly an accurate measure of demand. If 2 people are travelling they could get a taxi to their door in most inner suburbs for the same/less than 2 nitelink fares. Dublin is congested with Taxis on Friday and Saturday nights because the bus services is not adequate.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Whatever happened to the NTA's plan to have 24hour buses on the main routes?
Disappeared into the either with the Dublin BRT proposals I suppose.

All these things take time.

They would have to recruit more drivers for a start - that's proving tough to do even just for the normal daytime operations.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It comes down to profit, they must at the very least meet operating costs which will include more security which must be factored. If a lot of things ran they would be used but it comes down to costs of providing and the return the operator gets.

i suspect they will make enough. anyway they shouldn't actually get a say in the matter. should be up to the NTA/RPA or whatever it is these days

braniganl

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Influence does not always work, Irish Rail managed to not run such services for years and they are only doing it now as they make money.

The reality is the NTA are powerless unless they stamp up cash and/or have this as a specification when service contracts are renewed.



Would really question viability, yes perhaps last buses out of town at around 01.00 but Nightlink does adequate job as other days it would bleed money.

You are away with the fairies (or a taxi driver) if you honestly believe that an infrequent 2 night per week, premium priced night bus service is adequate for an urban sprawl city like Dublin in the 21st century.

Regular priced, clock faced night services 7 nights a week on orbital routes (at a minimum) is what should be aimed for.

howiya

Personally don't see the attraction of a service that only runs every 30 minutes and I suspect this is why there were low numbers using it in years gone by. If I arrive at a luas stop and see that I've to wait anywhere above 20 minutes for a service that may or may not arrive I'm hailing the next taxi.

Jamie2k9

howiya wrote: »

Personally don't see the attraction of a service that only runs every 30 minutes and I suspect this is why there were low numbers using it in years gone by. If I arrive at a luas stop and see that I've to wait anywhere above 20 minutes for a service that may or may not arrive I'm hailing the next taxi.

Green line doesn't have that problem and anyway before close of service it's 15-20 minute gaps so 10 minutes will not make a difference. Also as they run at 30 minutes past the hour between 00.30-03.30 there is a clear time for people to turn up.

You are away with the fairies (or a taxi driver) if you honestly believe that an infrequent 2 night per week, premium priced night bus service is adequate for an urban sprawl city like Dublin in the 21st century.

Regular priced, clock faced night services 7 nights a week on orbital routes (at a minimum) is what should be aimed for.

The city center is dead most nights, exclude a few students who will always get taxi's and there is little demand for a night service. I fully accept some major route could do with a once or twice hourly service at night.

i suspect they will make enough. anyway they shouldn't actually get a say in the matter. should be up to the NTA/RPA or whatever it is these days

Red line alone will require around 20 staff in total for the extra night services now those costs add up significantly.

howiya

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Green line doesn't have that problem and anyway before close of service it's 15-20 minute gaps so 10 minutes will not make a difference. Also as they run at 30 minutes past the hour between 00.30-03.30 there is a clear time for people to turn up.

If you choose to get a taxi you will get home to most destinations in the vicinity of red line luas stops within the 20-29 minute waiting period. If there's a couple of you its a no-brainer and even if I was on my own I'd pick a taxi.

Its the same with buses on Sundays. Every half hour and that scheduled service may not turn up making it one bus every hour. Then people wonder why nobody uses them.

end of the road

QUOTE=Jamie2k9;97731035]The city center is dead most nights, exclude a few students who will always get taxi's and there is little demand for a night service. I fully accept some major route could do with a once or twice hourly service at night.[/QUOTE]

thats not been my experience. yours differs and i can't say otherwise. yes i'd agree every route won't justify a night service but the major ones may at least. a real go needs to be made at one for at least a year, every night. gauge demand and then proceed from there. make it attractive. if it doesn't work after a genuine go, fine nothing we can do. personally if there was a night bus when i was a student i would have got that rather then a taxi.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Red line alone will require around 20 staff in total for the extra night services now those costs add up significantly.

sure, but thats what providing a service means. and remember, this is a service.

Jamie2k9

howiya wrote: »

If you choose to get a taxi you will get home to most destinations in the vicinity of red line luas stops within the 20-29 minute waiting period. If there's a couple of you its a no-brainer and even if I was on my own I'd pick a taxi.

Its the same with buses on Sundays. Every half hour and that scheduled service may not turn up making it one bus every hour. Then people wonder why nobody uses them.

I fully accept that but if people are out socializing and they are getting bus/trams home then it's no unreasonable to accept that services run ever 30 minutes and you should be there at that time. For the majority there would be no waiting time as many would have another drink etc and if you want such a personal service public transport will never work. As I said after 9 ish trains are only 15-20 minutes and it is not a problem for people.

You are picking at small insignificant things to the majority, there is only waiting if you make it that way. Every heard of the app....I never wait for more than 2-3 minutes any any time of day for Luas.

As for the buses yes big problem here but this does not apply to Lias which runs very well 99.9% of the time.

howiya

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I fully accept that but if people are out socializing and they are getting bus/trams home then it's no unreasonable to accept that services run ever 30 minutes and you should be there at that time. For the majority there would be no waiting time as many would have another drink etc and if you want such a personal service public transport will never work. As I said after 9 ish trains are only 15-20 minutes and it is not a problem for people.

You are picking at small insignificant things to the majority, there is only waiting if you make it that way. Every heard of the app....I never wait for more than 2-3 minutes any any time of day for Luas.

As for the buses yes big problem here but this does not apply to Lias which runs very well 99.9% of the time.

I have heard of the app and I find it very unreliable. A recent example. Tuesday I used it to time my journey to work. Both the app and the on platform display said the tram's destination was The Point as did the display on the tram itself. One stop later and we get to Belgard and the driver turfs everyone out and says its the last stop.

Many other times the app will say x minutes and you'll see the tram in the distance as you approach the stop.

The service has to be attractive. Otherwise people won't use it.

Jamie2k9

howiya wrote: »

I have heard of the app and I find it very unreliable. A recent example. Tuesday I used it to time my journey to work. Both the app and the on platform display said the tram's destination was The Point as did the display on the tram itself. One stop later and we get to Belgard and the driver turfs everyone out and says its the last stop.

Many other times the app will say x minutes and you'll see the tram in the distance as you approach the stop.

The service has to be attractive. Otherwise people won't use it.

The app may be 30-60 slower but it's a good guide to people when going for a tram. As for you Tuesday one off things happen.

As I said been very picky and I expect there would be no pleasing you if frequency was every 20 minutes either.

As I said above people traveling on the Green Line have no problems with late night frequency over the period.

howiya

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The app may be 30-60 slower but it's a good guide to people when going for a tram. As for you Tuesday one off things happen.

As I said been very picky and I expect there would be no pleasing you if frequency was every 20 minutes either.

As I said above people traveling on the Green Line have no problems with late night frequency over the period.

If you can't rely on the app during the day, why would you think you can rely on it at three in the morinng?

Maybe I am being picky but I pay for a service and I expect it to be a good service.

You are assuming that because people use the service they have no problems with it

Jamie2k9

howiya wrote: »

If you can't rely on the app during the day, why would you think you can rely on it at three in the morinng?

Maybe I am being picky but I pay for a service and I expect it to be a good service.

You are assuming that because people use the service they have no problems with it

It's an app it will take a little delay to update the app from reality, it's a very good guide to when the next tram is. Anyway you should not be running for a tram so late if you have to purchase a ticket or scan leap card....

You pay for a service and it's a very good service, nothing is prefect.

howiya

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It's an app it will take a little delay to update the app from reality, it's a very good guide to when the next tram is. Anyway you should not be running for a tram so late if you have to purchase a ticket or scan leap card....

You pay for a service and it's a very good service, nothing is prefect.

Trams regularly depart Tallaght before the app says they should. It isn't uncommon for a tram to change its departure time from x amount of minutes to due all of a sudden. I've lost count of how many times this happens. Its not a case of running for a tram or being late. Scanning a leap card takes two seconds if even that.

Jamie2k9

howiya wrote: »

Trams regularly depart Tallaght before the app says they should. It isn't uncommon for a tram to change its departure time from x amount of minutes to due all of a sudden. I've lost count of how many times this happens. Its not a case of running for a tram or being late. Scanning a leap card takes two seconds if even that.

2 seconds if there is a queue...

Major changes only happen if there is disruption to services, I think there is no pleasing you so perhaps use a private car?

howiya

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

2 seconds if there is a queue...

Major changes only happen if there is disruption to services, I think there is no pleasing you so perhaps use a private car?

I would have thought it would take longer if there is a queue?

Changing the departure time of a tram is hardly a major change as you describe it. It simply discomodes the people the service is there for but the operators of Luas aren't worried about that. And it doesn't only happen if there is a disruption to services.

I don't use a private car but maybe I should. That's hardly the answer though. We'd be back to your use it or lose it phrase if everyone started driving instead of using public transport

Jamie2k9

Up on website Fri/Sat 11/12/18/19 Dec + NYE

30 minute service between Poont/Belgard from 01.00-03.00, on the hour to Tallaght and half past to Saggart.

Atlantic Dawn

Would it not make good financial sense to run them late every friday and saturday night or would the unions not allow that?

end of the road

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Would it not make good financial sense to run them late every friday and saturday night or would the unions not allow that?

how would the unions not allow it? even if on the off chance they could not allow it why would they take such a position? nobody is willing to fund such services, so they won't run. that is the only reason

loyatemu

IME the last Dart at ~2330 is usually fairly busy. An extra service around midnight on the weekends should be viable.