Greenways debate

pedigree 6

It was being brought up in the IFA wages thread about this interview.
I heard it on Saturday and the Keep Ireland Open guy just came across as a total knob head. I think the IFA guy was in the galway studios and was waiting for prompts and hadn't the face to face advantage that the KIO guy had with Damien.
Straight to podcast here.



http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20875718%3A1523%3A07%2D11%2D2015%3A

ganmo

KIO are a horrible organisation...and that's being polite

paddysdream

Heard the tail end of this debate last Saturday morning and to be fair to the IFA guy, the other (KIO) spokesman came across as someone who was a few slices short of the full sliced pan ,to phrase it in a nice way.
Very difficult to debate or even reason with a person like that.

djmc

Just had a look at their website as l never heard of them they seem to think that they should have the right to take down farmers fencing and walk through our private property at will.
They mentioned other countries having that right
If they did that in parts of the USA. They could be shot dead on sight no questions asked and property owners would have the law on their side to shoot them.

Markcheese

Kind of wrecked that part of the programme though, I was interested in finding out what the problem , issues were with the green way , ( where the route was following ect) , didnt get much info because yr man was a bit of a knob ...

trixi2011

djmc wrote: »

Just had a look at their website as l never heard of them they seem to think that they should have the right to take down farmers fencing and walk through our private property at will.
They mentioned other countries having that right
If they did that in parts of the USA. They could be shot dead on sight no questions asked and property owners would have the law on their side to shoot them.

In scotland anone can walk on your land without permission complete balls of a rule

pedigree 6

trixi2011 wrote: »

In scotland anone can walk on your land without permission complete balls of a rule

Talks of it happening in Wales now too.

jfh

The guy from kio was well able to debate, although completely lost credibility with his total bias, not sure where the ifa guy was got, not up to ability to argue his point

vicwatson

Expected a debate here, but.

Markcheese

Is the galway / athlone line a completely new route ? Or does it follow an old road/ railway or route way ?
Heard the ifa guy rightly saying how it would cut farms in two and limit expansion opportunities, but surely not beyond the witt of man to overcome that reasonably cheaply - ( thinking cattle grids- stock crossing signs with flashing lights, even under passes in some places)

Username John

Markcheese wrote: »

Is the galway / athlone line a completely new route ? Or does it follow an old road/ railway or route way ?
Heard the ifa guy rightly saying how it would cut farms in two and limit expansion opportunities, but surely not beyond the witt of man to overcome that reasonably cheaply - ( thinking cattle grids- stock crossing signs with flashing lights, even under passes in some places)

Remind me again how cheap an under pass is?


I will say I don't see why people can't just walk roads, but maybe that's just me...

pedigree 6

Markcheese wrote: »

Is the galway / athlone line a completely new route ? Or does it follow an old road/ railway or route way ?
Heard the ifa guy rightly saying how it would cut farms in two and limit expansion opportunities, but surely not beyond the witt of man to overcome that reasonably cheaply - ( thinking cattle grids- stock crossing signs with flashing lights, even under passes in some places)

Have no idea. I think they were talking about CPO's being put on land and the IFA brought it to court and stopped it. I think they were saying it would be a 30m corridor of land, it seems very wide for a cycle path.

farmerjj

The IFA man was a embarrassment. Not a clue how to debate, and seemed to have no level of knowledge about the topic, final nail in the IFA coffin for me anyway

djmc

It only makes since that the route be discussed with land owners.
I like the idea of greenways lovely safe place to take the kids for a day out but I would rather see the route go along by the boundary's ditch than through the middle of the farm or through the farmyard. It's hard enough to keep stuff locked away with all the theft in rural areas lately.

mf240

Markcheese wrote: »

Is the galway / athlone line a completely new route ? Or does it follow an old road/ railway or route way ?
Heard the ifa guy rightly saying how it would cut farms in two and limit expansion opportunities, but surely not beyond the witt of man to overcome that reasonably cheaply - ( thinking cattle grids- stock crossing signs with flashing lights, even under passes in some places)

Im thinking a digger and a couple of dumpers for the weekend. And they can fcuk off and cyclye through someone elses work place and private property.

vicwatson

^^^^^

Nice

Bullocks

Markcheese wrote: »

Is the galway / athlone line a completely new route ? Or does it follow an old road/ railway or route way ?
Heard the ifa guy rightly saying how it would cut farms in two and limit expansion opportunities, but surely not beyond the witt of man to overcome that reasonably cheaply - ( thinking cattle grids- stock crossing signs with flashing lights, even under passes in some places)

In Galway where we are its following the old railway from Clifden to Galway, I don't know where from thereafter . Its going through an outfarm of ours but won't really impact us either way . Ive been to a few meetings and the people that have issues are those that built houses and farm yards on them . Around Conemara the old railway was a great place to feed cattle/ horse on as it was up over the fields and a solid place to drive on and drop a bale .
They should never have been given permission to build on or use the railway for anything when it was closed but noone stopped them so thats a council fault IMO
The anti green way people who spoke at these meetings I was at were ignorant and blowing things out of proportion big time , the last meeting I was at I had to leave as I couldn't listen to the tripe out of some of the locals .
The IFA man present to give him credit spoke well and sensibly about it , I can't remember his name but he was from Athlone side I think and dealt with alot of CPOs , I didn't fancy his job of dealing with some of the people after :rolleyes:

Bullocks

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Have no idea. I think they were talking about CPO's being put on land and the IFA brought it to court and stopped it. I think they were saying it would be a 30m corridor of land, it seems very wide for a cycle path.

Its a 3m wide corridor they want not 30m

20silkcut

djmc wrote: »

It only makes since that the route be discussed with land owners.
I like the idea of greenways lovely safe place to take the kids for a day out but I would rather see the route go along by the boundary's ditch than through the middle of the farm or through the farmyard. It's hard enough to keep stuff locked away with all the theft in rural areas lately.

I love the idea of greenways as well. A safe place to walk and cycle and enjoy the rural countryside. This initiative has the potential to really breathe life back into rural Ireland. There are business opportunities here too. Walking and cycling are thirsty pursuits these people will need refreshments along the way.

kowtow

Bullocks wrote:

Its a 3m wide corridor they want not 30m

Shpuld be enough to cope with the larger sort of cyclist?

Grueller

I thought it was 10 metres wide mentioned. Could be wrong though.
1. In dairy country walking cows across four times a day would be a hassle. Especially when you will get cyclists and pedestrians who think that they will have the right of way to plough through them.
2. Will the farmer be responsible for cleaning the road 4 times daily? If he is and was negligent or even slow on this will he be sued by a cyclist?
3. No way will the government fund an underpass for everyone.
4. The amount of picnic leftover rubbish etc during the summer would be a nuisance.
5. It is a back door to a farm for undesirable types to case it out.

I say all this as someone who runs about 50 miles per week and am always looking for routes off the public road which are safe and so much the better if they are scenic. I would not want this through my farm and if it were to come to my door I would want an underpass big enough for machinery to run through.

Bullocks

kowtow wrote: »

Shpuld be enough to cope with the larger sort of cyclist?

I think the worry was that it would be wide enough for the ambulance to carry the larger cyclist up if needs be

20silkcut

Grueller wrote: »

I thought it was 10 metres wide mentioned. Could be wrong though.
1. In dairy country walking cows across four times a day would be a hassle. Especially when you will get cyclists and pedestrians who think that they will have the right of way to plough through them.
2. Will the farmer be responsible for cleaning the road 4 times daily? If he is and was negligent or even slow on this will he be sued by a cyclist?
3. No way will the government fund an underpass for everyone.
4. The amount of picnic leftover rubbish etc during the summer would be a nuisance.
5. It is a back door to a farm for undesirable types to case it out.

I say all this as someone who runs about 50 miles per week and am always looking for routes off the public road which are safe and so much the better if they are scenic. I would not want this through my farm and if it were to come to my door I would want an underpass big enough for machinery to run through.

Criminals drive around in high powered audis and BMWs they are hardy going to bother sauntering around walk ways casing places out walking maybe 20 mins between farms.
The criminal activity I would be worried about on these walkways would be more the stalking weirdo types.
But then if you were to worry about that then why bother doing anything or going anywhere.

djmc

20silkcut wrote: »

Criminals drive around in high powered audis and BMWs they are hardy going to bother sauntering around walk ways casing places out walking maybe 20 mins between farms.
The criminal activity I would be worried about on these walkways would be more the stalking weirdo types.
But then if you were to worry about that then why bother doing anything or going anywhere.

They can also use high powered motorcycles on a perfect getaway pathway that garda cars can't travel with multiple exit points clearly visible on Google earth.
A young scout on a bicycle having done the ground work for him.
Criminal gang's are getting more organized with the last number of years.

ganmo

Too many people think that they have the right to walk across private ground of its a shortcut for them.

And then there's dogs...

Markcheese

Grueller wrote:

I say all this as someone who runs about 50 miles per week and am always looking for routes off the public road which are safe and so much the better if they are scenic. I would not want this through my farm and if it were to come to my door I would want an underpass big enough for machinery to run through.

Why would you want an underpass that big ? I wouldn't think most farmers would even need an under pass ?
Some dairy farmer might need more than 1. Especially if the path goes
through the middle of the farm.
I agree with you about anti-social behaviour, kids on motorbikes and quads ect.especially near towns. Shouldn't be impossible to deal with ,using cameras and byelaws allowing gards to impound bikes on the spot.
Should nothing ever be built anywhere because of a fear of what may happen ?
No motorways or bypasses, no power stations or transmission lines, mobile phone masts? .feic it I wouldnt really want a school right next to my house....

pedigree 6

Bullocks wrote: »

Its a 3m wide corridor they want not 30m

I think Damien said 30m, he must have left out the decimal point.:D
KIO talk of benefits to farmers. The only benefit I can see would be the sale of land in the first place.
Maybe someone with land beside the track could set up a camper van park.
The amount of camper vans that come off the boat in rosslare is unbelieveable and everyone of them has a few bicycles on the back. So maybe something to accommodate them.
If it was coming on my farm I would have reservations, in that the council or whoever maintain the track and the fence and that people stay to the track.
The government rubbed people up the wrong way with issuing CPO's instead of sitting down individually with each landowner and going through their issues.
Then the interview on countrywide just took the biscuit, KIO are never going to get anywhere with that attitude.

Grueller

Markcheese wrote: »

Why would you want an underpass that big ? I wouldn't think most farmers would even need an under pass ?
Some dairy farmer might need more than 1. Especially if the path goes
through the middle of the farm.
I agree with you about anti-social behaviour, kids on motorbikes and quads ect.especially near towns. Shouldn't be impossible to deal with ,using cameras and byelaws allowing gards to impound bikes on the spot.
Should nothing ever be built anywhere because of a fear of what may happen ?
No motorways or bypasses, no power stations or transmission lines, mobile phone masts? .feic it I wouldnt really want a school right next to my house....

Enough for a stockman tractor and spinner/topper etc to go through. If my land was to be split I would not want it to change my farming practices at all.

20silkcut

djmc wrote: »

They can also use high powered motorcycles on a perfect getaway pathway that garda cars can't travel with multiple exit points clearly visible on Google earth.
A young scout on a bicycle having done the ground work for him.
Criminal gang's are getting more organized with the last number of years.

Motorcycles are hardly a criminals vehicle of choice if he is going in around a farm yard looking to rob an ifor Williams or power tools. Never saw a ball hitch on a motorbike or anything the size of a car boot either.
The motorway is the biggest boon ever to criminality in rural Ireland. Cycle paths and walkways are not.
They are hardly high speed corridors for quick getaways to say so is just a red herring.
It is hardly the case either that these walkways are going to be forced through farmyards.
Presumably there would be consultation process. Having a stock proof fenced walkway on the edge of your farm is no bad thing.

Mickeroo

Greenway from westport to achill has been nothing but a benefit to the area, place is booming more than ever, small businesses all over the place that wouldn't have been viable before. None of our farm machinery, children or livestock have been taken by the cyclists so far.

Banjoxed

mf240 wrote: »

Im thinking a digger and a couple of dumpers for the weekend. And they can fcuk off and cyclye through someone elses work place and private property.

The farmers in England and Wales must be living under the jackboot of oppression then with all those rights of way, bridleways and public footpaths traversing their land.

http://footpathmaps.com

Of course that is mild compared to the Irish farmers' nightmare that is Scotland and it's right to roam..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/freedomtoroam

So, just how free are we in Ireland, really?

djmc

I am not against greenways as I said I'd like to see more of them
A greenway from Tralee to fenit in my county is having the same problems.
I am simply debating the concern's being a farmer.
As for motorcycles don't know but I do know of a case where a fence was cut quad stolen driven to the farm next door and stole cow box loaded up with tool and equipment and driven back across field to 4x4 waiting at the road so after that and stories like it nothing would surprise me
There shouldn't be much problem with it if discussions with every farmer along the route about the best route through their land
If they can't go through or another route along the boundary ditch they can go around through another farm at either side failing those 3 options then CPO could be considered.
At the other side if the cie track is not their property how much claim can farmers have other than squatters rights.
It issue of if a cyclist falling of on cow dung and who is responsible for injury claim is another concern.

Banjoxed

djmc wrote: »

I am not against greenways as I said I'd like to see more of them
A greenway from Tralee to fenit in my county is having the same problems.
I am simply debating the concern's being a farmer.
As for motorcycles don't know but I do know of a case where a fence was cut quad stolen driven to the farm next door and stole cow box loaded up with tool and equipment and driven back across field to 4x4 waiting at the road so after that and stories like it nothing would surprise me
There shouldn't be much problem with it if discussions with every farmer along the route about the best route through their land
If they can't go through or another route along the boundary ditch they can go around through another farm at either side failing those 3 options then CPO could be considered.
At the other side if the cie track is not their property how much claim can farmers have other than squatters rights.
It issue of if a cyclist falling of on cow dung and who is responsible for injury claim is another concern.

I agree with you, that is blackguarding behaviour and there should be no liability on landowners for people's malice or stupidity. Criminal damage and theft are a matter for the Gardaí and as a rural dweller myself I too have concerns regarding the state of rural policing.

Ultimately it is a matter for agreement. I thought that the Leader II programme a number of years ago was a fair way forward for responsible access but it was scuppered.

ganmo

20silkcut wrote: »

Motorcycles are hardly a criminals vehicle of choice if he is going in around a farm yard looking to rob an ifor Williams or power tools. Never saw a ball hitch on a motorbike or anything the size of a car boot either.
The motorway is the biggest boon ever to criminality in rural Ireland. Cycle paths and walkways are not.
They are hardly high speed corridors for quick getaways to say so is just a red herring.
It is hardly the case either that these walkways are going to be forced through farmyards.
Presumably there would be consultation process. Having a Human proof fenced walkway on the edge of your farm is no bad thing.

Its not unknown for people to climb over stock fences.

davidk1394

Just listened to it now. Taught both speakers were very bad. I don't live anywhere near the greenway. This farmer seems to focus on cattle and cows. If i was a farmer up there and i had sheep the biggest fear is people walking dogs with or without leads. People say "ooh my dog wouldn't hurt a fly" put it near a field of sheep and you'd find out very quickly.

blue5000

Grueller wrote: »

I thought it was 10 metres wide mentioned. Could be wrong though.
1. In dairy country walking cows across four times a day would be a hassle. Especially when you will get cyclists and pedestrians who think that they will have the right of way to plough through them.
2. Will the farmer be responsible for cleaning the road 4 times daily? If he is and was negligent or even slow on this will he be sued by a cyclist?
3. No way will the government fund an underpass for everyone.
4. The amount of picnic leftover rubbish etc during the summer would be a nuisance.
5. It is a back door to a farm for undesirable types to case it out.

I say all this as someone who runs about 50 miles per week and am always looking for routes off the public road which are safe and so much the better if they are scenic. I would not want this through my farm and if it were to come to my door I would want an underpass big enough for machinery to run through.

All valid points. Is there going to be public toilets on the route? I noticed the councils along the shannon have closed the facilities in all the mooring places for the winter.

We've been approached about a walkway for the Bearra one, it's an outfarm along a riverbank. Local businesses will benefit, but farmers who are actually providing the resource for the walkers aren't going to benefit at all.

Deepsouthwest

Just listened to the podcast now, and yes the IFA guy is poor and ill prepared, but the keeping Ireland open guy is an incredible prick, so removed from the realities of farming, yet so assured in his opinion. I love the ideas of these greenways, I think they'd be a great addition to rural Ireland. But the audicity of the govt to think they can just take land at will is incredible. Would like to see some people's reactions if they had a cycle way passing through their gardens

Markcheese

I reckon that some people ( who are trying to aquire old railway lines )will have green ways going through their front gardens .... pity about them .
The galway greenway is a bit different though .. thats not been a railwsy since the 30's and IE never made a claim on it . As long as neither side dig their heels in it should be possible to work it out .