Should people who work in property and financial sector be punished if...

experiMental

If something happens like the financial crisis, or severe housing shortage, should people who work in decision making positions of financial and property sectors be punished with heavier taxes on their wages?

If they solve the problem, their tax burden will be lifted, of course.

Are "punishments" like these a good way to improve the performance and accountability of financial and property sectors?

BoJack Horseman

No....

If people break laws they should be punished.....

Vengefully attacking business people who fail in their efforts would be beyond stupid.

Atlantic Dawn

No but if someone certified and signed off on a fire or building safety certificate for a property that should never have been certified they should be charged with attempted murder.

Manach

Then given the vast increase of state power over the economic sector, then simple justice would suggest that politicians whose decisions lead to such outcomes might also be punished by say blocking their pensions?

Iwasfrozen

experiMental wrote: »

If something happens like the financial crisis, or severe housing shortage, should people who work in decision making positions of financial and property sectors be punished with heavier taxes on their wages?

If they solve the problem, their tax burden will be lifted, of course.

Are "punishments" like these a good way to improve the performance and accountability of financial and property sectors?

That would be a very good way to drive every financial sector job out of the country.

We'd still be affected by top level decisions but we wouldn't be able to tax their salaries or profit from their spending.

Good job sir.

Godge

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

No but if someone certified and signed off on a fire or building safety certificate for a property that should never have been certified they should be charged with attempted murder.

That is illegal. Business decisions are not illegal.

eeguy

experiMental wrote: »

If something happens like the financial crisis, or severe housing shortage, should people who work in decision making positions of financial and property sectors be punished with heavier taxes on their wages?

If they solve the problem, their tax burden will be lifted, of course.

Are "punishments" like these a good way to improve the performance and accountability of financial and property sectors?

No.

That would imply retroactively punishing people for not doing things they didn't know they had to do.

Unfortunately, most of those who caused the economic collapse did so unwittingly and didn't gain anything in the long haul. It would be unfair to punish them.

Godge

Does anybody posting on here have a clue about risk, risk management and decision-taking?

realitykeeper

experiMental wrote: »

If something happens like the financial crisis, or severe housing shortage, should people who work in decision making positions of financial and property sectors be punished with heavier taxes on their wages?

If they solve the problem, their tax burden will be lifted, of course.

Are "punishments" like these a good way to improve the performance and accountability of financial and property sectors?

In cases where regulations are breached, criminal charges should be brought against individuals. If the individual tries to hide behind their institution, then the members of the institution must decide if they all want a criminal record, ASBO, probationary term and a lengthy spell of community service for the sake of the culpable individual.

Regarding the financial sector, I suggest that bonuses for selling loans should be paid after the loan has been repaid in full, on time and as agreed. In the case of long term loans, the seller could add the proceeds of the pending bonus to their will in case they die during the decades they are waiting for it.

Late payment of the loan would result in an equally late payment on the bonus as well as a reduction in the bonus for poor performance. The sellers of loans hate this suggestion but that in itself indicates that the idea is sound.

hmmm

experiMental wrote: »

If something happens like the financial crisis, or severe housing shortage, should people who work in decision making positions of financial and property sectors be punished with heavier taxes on their wages?

Only if we also tax every individual in the country who told their kids that "rent was dead money", "get on the property ladder" and "buy property, it always goes up". We should also tax everyone who voted for Fianna Fail, and anyone who refers to the outside lane as the "fast lane" should have their road tax doubled. We'll also need to tax every public employee who pushed for unsustainable wage increases through benchmarking, and we'll also need to tax everyone who voted for parties that promised to cut taxes based on unsustainable property boom tax receipts.

If you start taxing incompetence, you end up taxing most of us in some way or another.

The J Stands for Jay

realitykeeper wrote: »

In cases where regulations are breached, criminal charges should be brought against individuals. If the individual tries to hide behind their institution, then the members of the institution must decide if they all want a criminal record, ASBO, probationary term and a lengthy spell of community service for the sake of the culpable individual.

Regarding the financial sector, I suggest that bonuses for selling loans should be paid after the loan has been repaid in full, on time and as agreed. In the case of long term loans, the seller could add the proceeds of the pending bonus to their will in case they die during the decades they are waiting for it.

Late payment of the loan would result in an equally late payment on the bonus as well as a reduction in the bonus for poor performance. The sellers of loans hate this suggestion but that in itself indicates that the idea is sound.

Looks like someone doesn't know loans make most of their profits in the early years..

mjv2ydratu679c

hmmm wrote: »

Only if we also tax every individual in the country who told their kids that "rent was dead money", "get on the property ladder" and "buy property, it always goes up". We should also tax everyone who voted for Fianna Fail, and anyone who refers to the outside lane as the "fast lane" should have their road tax doubled. We'll also need to tax every public employee who pushed for unsustainable wage increases through benchmarking, and we'll also need to tax everyone who voted for parties that promised to cut taxes based on unsustainable property boom tax receipts.

I wouldn't disagree with taxing any of the above - about Irish society grew up and started taking responsibility for it's actions.

Lux23

It's not a crime to be incompetent, in many cases financial sector employees and property developers simply had bad judgement. At the moment this country is chucking money into the tech start up sector and we are bound to see plenty of failure there.

andrew

experiMental wrote: »

If something happens like the financial crisis, or severe housing shortage, should people who work in decision making positions of financial and property sectors be punished with heavier taxes on their wages?

If they solve the problem, their tax burden will be lifted, of course.

Are "punishments" like these a good way to improve the performance and accountability of financial and property sectors?

You're implying that these problems are being caused by a small number of individuals who just aren't making the right decisions. The reality is that these problems (and most problems) are much more complicated than that; they involve a lot of people and a lot of politics.

Take the financial crisis for example. Lets even take someone who objectively made some awful decisions, the former Governor of the Central Bank and the senior management team there at that time. Should they be prosecuted? Well, no, but if you were going to make a case you’d have a strong a one as you’ll get. They systematically ignored and downplayed the housing bubble for years. Why? In significant part because had they tried to cool the housing market when it was heating up, people would have gone mental. Heck, even after the largest property bubble the world has ever seen, people complained about the Central Bank’s mortgage rules. Politically, it would have been a non-starter. So in that respect, you can say that people in general, politically, are to blame for the Central Bank doing nothing. The same applies to the banks – they were acting in the best interests of their shareholders, who demanded growth and dividends at any cost – and those shareholders were lots of Irish people.

Or take the shortage of homes and high rents. One of the contributory factors is onerous planning legislation. Another is the fact that bet-sits have been banned. Also the lack of legislation to protect and promote long term tenancies. And Credit conditions probably aren’t great for construction companies either, so that’s probably another issue. The list of contributory factors is massive, and blaming one person wouldn’t be fair, nor would it achieve anything. It’d probably lead to people not making any decisions at all.

macraignil

experiMental wrote: »

If something happens like the financial crisis, or severe housing shortage, should people who work in decision making positions of financial and property sectors be punished with heavier taxes on their wages?

If they solve the problem, their tax burden will be lifted, of course.

Are "punishments" like these a good way to improve the performance and accountability of financial and property sectors?

I think it would be unfair to tax private sector workers based on their contribution to the performance of the economy of the country. To cut wages of those public sector employees who failed in their duties in financial oversight or in housing provision would sound more practical but that would imply keeping those incompetent to fulfill their positions employed.

Politicians' pensions should be linked to the average national wage so it's in their interest to look after the countries economic future.

realitykeeper

McGaggs wrote: »

Looks like someone doesn't know loans make most of their profits in the early years..

I wonder who that could be. Not that it matters, bonuses should not be paid until the borrower has coughed up every last cent.

Jim2007

Manach wrote: »

Then given the vast increase of state power over the economic sector, then simple justice would suggest that politicians whose decisions lead to such outcomes might also be punished by say blocking their pensions?

But who appointed the politicians??? It seems that the people who appointed them are paying the price. But like most addicts we choose to blame everyone else for our mistakes => it will happen again just as sure as day follows night.

Quorom

In Denmark people who work in financial institutions can be held personally responsible for losses incurred by the institution ( Danish Business Act ) from their actions. This Act puts the reins on reckless lending etc.

macraignil

Jim2007 wrote: »

But who appointed the politicians??? It seems that the people who appointed them are paying the price. But like most addicts we choose to blame everyone else for our mistakes => it will happen again just as sure as day follows night.

To me it seems even those who did not appoint the politicians are paying the price for their incompetence.

I have seen no effort being made to limit the huge pensions being paid to the political leaders who allowed the economy of Ireland to develop as it did when they were making the decisions. Just as bonuses are linked to performance why not make politicians pensions linked to the performance of the Irish economy. There were serious failings to address supply problems in housing in Ireland. Some saw prices of homes increasing could be interpreted as economic success and regulations and costs of building were increased when supply was still far from meeting demand.

There was even a TV program produced by RTE that pushed young adults unable to get out of their parents houses into buying into the hugely inflated "celtic tiger" property bubble. My brother reckons the participants in the show should be taking legal action against the producers.

I did not vote for these politicians who could sell their "celtic tiger" story to the more economically reassured home owners as I could clearly see as home ownership was becoming harder and harder to achieve Ireland was becoming a less attractive place to live and work.

While I would see limiting their pensions as being someway justified, since the current group of political leaders are still playing to the same group of voters I don't expect much to be done in terms of accountability. I agree with your point that as things are going it will happen again.

lochderg

Godge wrote: »

That is illegal. Business decisions are not illegal.

A taxi driver is fined €1050 for overcharging by €32- the legal profession regularly overcharge by hundreds of thousands with no consequences-which is legal/illegal?
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/dublin-taxi-driver-fined-1-050-for-charging-47-for-15-fare-1.2414140

Jim2007

macraignil wrote: »

To me it seems even those who did not appoint the politicians are paying the price for their incompetence.

Unfortunately that is how democracy works....

realitykeeper

Godge wrote: »

That is illegal. Business decisions are not illegal.

Absolute rubbish. Certifying a fire hazard for the sake of a quick buck is not a business decision. I suggest you take a crash course in Ethics 101, pronto.