Who's in the wrong here?

n97 mini

Spotted this vid on youtube.

As far as I can make out prior tp the incident in question the chap on the bike had committed multiple offences, but leaving that aside, the incident in question, the biker came up the inside of the 4x4, and would have continued to overtake on the inside (an offence) had the 4x4 not gone to pull in, but the 4x4 went to pull in presumably when the biker had positioned himself in his blind spot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibIRxdHntiE

RustyNut

The jeep 100%. He entered a lane that was not clear. Anything the biker done before that is not relevant.

n97 mini

The biker positioned himself in the 4x4's blind spot by coming up on the inside from behind. Can you blame the 4x4 driver for not seeing him?

(Blue areas are blind spots)

duffman3833

he was in that lane for a good while, the jeep should have checked his mirrors and be able to see him, if not, his mirrors aren't setup correct. But bikes on the m50 are a pain as they weave in and out of traffic and can come out of no where behind you, gotta be very careful

RustyNut

n97 mini wrote: »

The biker positioned himself in the 4x4's blind spot by coming up on the inside from behind. Can you blame the 4x4 driver for not seeing him?

(Blue areas are blind spots)

The jeep driver is responsible for checking that the lane he/she is entering is clear, no excuses.

kingtut

50/50 for when the incident occurs but holy sh1t that biker is reckless for the majority of the video! :eek:

n97 mini

duffman3833 wrote: »

the jeep should have checked his mirrors and be able to see him, if not, his mirrors aren't setup correct.

Correctly set-up mirrors still have blind spots. No-one would go to change lane in traffic like that without checking mirrors first, so I'd be pretty sure the 4x4 driver did. I'd apportion blame to the biker for being in the blind spot as he came up from behind on the inside.

Del2005

The bike was in his mirrors for a good time before coming into the blind spot. If the 4x4 driver had been using their mirrors they'd have noticed that the bike was no longer behind. Still doesn't matter as the 4x4 driver should have done a shoulder check before changing lanes, there's a reason it's called a life saver.

challengemaster

kingtut wrote: »

50/50 for when the incident occurs but holy sh1t that biker is reckless for the majority of the video! :eek:

There's probably a good 200 offences on video there :pac:

Micky Dolenz

Pot, kettle stuff.
Why would anyone post such a vid on youtube? Talk about incriminating yourself.

n97 mini

challengemaster wrote: »

There's probably a good 200 offences on video there :pac:

The same author has a similar video where he's giving out about another biker overtaking on the inside ("undertaking" as he calls it) while overtaking on the inside himself, in a different lane!

RustyNut

n97 mini wrote: »

Correctly set-up mirrors still have blind spots. No-one would go to change lane in traffic like that without checking mirrors first, so I'd be pretty sure the 4x4 driver did. I'd apportion blame to the biker for being in the blind spot as he came up from behind on the inside.

Sitting in someone's blind spot is not clever but entering a lane that is not clear is negligent.

So many examples of idiots who haven't the faintest idea how to use a motorway. Bloody hell.

duffman3833

From 4:33 to 5:00 the driver had time to look in his mirrors and see the bike. If you mirrors are setup correct, he definitely should have seen him in the 30 seconds he was sitting in that lane

bk

The 4x4 only indicates when s/he already starts entering the lane (too late) and is thus clearly in the wrong here. The correct procedure is:

- Check mirrors
- Signal your intention to change lanes
- Check mirrors again.
- Check over your shoulder for the blind spot
- Change lane.

Clearly this wasn't done here.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

Spotted this vid on youtube.

As far as I can make out prior tp the incident in question the chap on the bike had committed multiple offences, but leaving that aside, the incident in question, the biker came up the inside of the 4x4, and would have continued to overtake on the inside (an offence) had the 4x4 not gone to pull in, but the 4x4 went to pull in presumably when the biker had positioned himself in his blind spot.

What an absolute tosser! that bike rider should be banned from driving anything with wheels even a bicycle!

Undertaking,

dangerously changing lanes between trucks and vans only a few feet apart,

Driving on the hard shoulder,

Whinging about debris on the road hard shoulder,

driving without due care and attention by not anticipating the movement of the jeep.

That guy should be locked up for the protection and safety of all road users! it is people like him that cause major accidents and walk away from the carnage without a scratch.

challengemaster

bk wrote: »

The 4x4 only indicates when s/he already starts entering the lane (too late) and is thus clearly in the wrong here.

Indicating has no legal bearing so there's no "thus is clearly in the wrong". Even if they had indicated, it does not grant right of way.

Stranger Danger

It's only a matter of time before the biker gets taken out of it if that's his usual style.

"I exist Mr KE 5505"?

Not for much longer.

cython

challengemaster wrote: »

Indicating has no legal bearing so there's no "thus is clearly in the wrong". Even if they had indicated, it does not grant right of way.

Indicating ahead of the manoeuvre would not have put the 4x4 in the right, but failure to indicate until midway through the manoeuvre is clearly wrong. That being said the biker had been a tosser for most of the video an unfortunately will probably take from the incident that he was most at risk when driving in the same manner as most traffic, and thus see the previous carry on as perfectly ok.

n97 mini

Looking at one of the guy's other videos, "Good Driver, Bad Driver" he films himself complaining about the car in front while he does 85 km/h through a 60 zone, 75 through a 50 and so on. He hasn't put up a video in months, I really hope his driving hasn't been his downfall.

I like the one where he eats the Chinese food while he drives

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

I like the one where he eats the Chinese food while he drives

At 46km/h in traffic! :eek:

I think maybe he will pull off his videos, he looks so bad.

Kimbot

OMG what an absolute fool, the biker has a few videos up of him doing all the wrong things on the road and he thinks he has a right to pull others up in the wrong.

Del2005

jonny24ie wrote: »

OMG what an absolute fool, the biker has a few videos up of him doing all the wrong things on the road and he thinks he has a right to pull others up in the wrong.

If people didn't think that they where superior to everyone else youtube would have nothing on it. Loads of people post videos of other people doing dodgy/illegal/dangerous things on the road while they actively put themselves into similar situations to get the video. At least the biker in the OP didn't selectively edit their own bad bits out.

Terrlock

If you drive like an idiot can you really complain about another idiot taking you out?

magicbastarder

someone should paste the URL for this thread into the comments on the video.

bk

challengemaster wrote: »

Indicating has no legal bearing so there's no "thus is clearly in the wrong". Even if they had indicated, it does not grant right of way.

If you were to do what the 4x4 driver did during your driving test, you would fail the test.

Indicating certainly doesn't grant you right of way, I didn't claim it does. However you are supposed to indicate in order to give other drivers an indication of your intentions. Had the 4x4 driver indicated earlier like he is supposed to do so, they the motorbiker would have had time to slow down and make space for him.

There is no point in using the indicator after you start your manoeuvre, it is too late and a complete misuse of the indicator.

BTW yes, the motorcyclists is a complete moron in the lead up to the incident. But for the 30 seconds are so the motorcyclist was besides the 4x4, he wasn't doing anything wrong at all and the 4x4 driver was 100% wrong in their manoeuvre.

Alun

magicbastarder wrote: »

someone should paste the URL for this thread into the comments on the video.

Seeing as he posted the video in question back in June 2014, and hasn't posted anything at all since 8 months ago (his most recent hobby appears to be beer tasting!) I doubt there's much point.

bk

BTW here is the Rules of the Road say on changing lanes for anyone who in confused:

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/good-driving-practice/changing-traffic-lanes.html

You must give way to traffic already in the lane into which you are moving.

Clearly the 4x4 driver didn't do this.

If you have good reason to change lanes, use your mirrors and check in plenty of time to ensure that the way is clear. To check your blind spot when travelling at speed, take a quick sideways glance to check the position of a vehicle that may have disappeared from your view in the mirror.

Signal your intention and change lane when it is clear and safe to do so.

duffman3833

Ive often wondered, if you upload video like this to YouTube, can gardai send you a ticket or something if there is a viable reg. number. Like that 4x4, can he get done for that if a guard seen this video?

seamus

n97 mini wrote: »

The biker positioned himself in the 4x4's blind spot by coming up on the inside from behind. Can you blame the 4x4 driver for not seeing him?

(Blue areas are blind spots)

Just to note - a blind spot doesn't mean, "I can't see this area and woe betide anyone who's there". Yes, you can blame the 4x4 for not seeing him, because you're supposed to check your blind spots before every manoeuvre.

You should remain out of another vehicle's blind spots precisely because everyone else is a complete moron who won't check their blind spots, not because you're liable for things that happen there.

"He was in my blind spot" is not an excuse for an accident, in fact it's an admission that you were driving without due care and attention.

Aside from that, the video reminds me of exactly why I got off the motorbike. Holy jeebus, I'd never filter at those speeds, madness.

n97 mini

As the biker moved up from the inside into the 4x4's blind spot, from two lanes over by the looks of it, I think he bears some responsibility. I think if there had been a smack he would have been done for dangerous driving. The 4x4 driver would probably be done too, but for careless driving.

RustyNut

n97 mini wrote: »

As the biker moved up from the inside into the 4x4's blind spot, from two lanes over by the looks of it, I think he bears some responsibility. I think if there had been a smack he would have been done for dangerous driving. The 4x4 driver would probably be done too, but for careless driving.

Was that you driving the jeep?

challengemaster

bk wrote: »

If you were to do what the 4x4 driver did during your driving test, you would fail the test.

Indeed, but for the reason you outlined in your later post (not yielding to traffic already in the lane) - nothing to do with indicators.

However you are supposed to indicate in order to give other drivers an indication of your intentions. Had the 4x4 driver indicated earlier like he is supposed to do so, they the motorbiker would have had time to slow down and make space for him.

There is no point in using the indicator after you start your manoeuvre, it is too late and a complete misuse of the indicator.

Indeed, and I don't disagree one bit. Indicator misuse is still not why the 4x4 was in the wrong though.

seamus wrote: »

Just to note - a blind spot doesn't mean, "I can't see this area and woe betide anyone who's there". Yes, you can blame the 4x4 for not seeing him, because you're supposed to check your blind spots before every manoeuvre.

You should remain out of another vehicle's blind spots precisely because everyone else is a complete moron who won't check their blind spots, not because you're liable for things that happen there.

"He was in my blind spot" is not an excuse for an accident, in fact it's an admission that you were driving without due care and attention.

I do agree with everything you've said seamus, but just one point. Take a look at the thumbnail for the video, which is conveniently just at the point the 4x4 starts moving left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibIRxdHntiE

With the set up of the various pillars and high doors on the 4x4 and in relation to the position of the bike, it looks to me like even if you did do an over the shoulder check you still would not see the bike. It looks like a literal blind spot, even if you did attempt to check them.

magicbastarder

challengemaster wrote: »

With the set up of the various pillars and high doors on the 4x4 and in relation to the position of the bike, it looks to me like even if you did do an over the shoulder check you still would not see the bike. It looks like a literal blind spot, even if you did attempt to check them.

In the thumbnail above, I cannot see how he would be the blind spot. I drive a different car, but there's no way he'd be in my blind spot on mine I reckon.

Vic_08

bk wrote: »

If you were to do what the 4x4 driver did during your driving test, you would fail the test.

Indicating certainly doesn't grant you right of way, I didn't claim it does. However you are supposed to indicate in order to give other drivers an indication of your intentions. Had the 4x4 driver indicated earlier like he is supposed to do so, they the motorbiker would have had time to slow down and make space for him.

There is no point in using the indicator after you start your manoeuvre, it is too late and a complete misuse of the indicator.

BTW yes, the motorcyclists is a complete moron in the lead up to the incident. But for the 30 seconds are so the motorcyclist was besides the 4x4, he wasn't doing anything wrong at all and the 4x4 driver was 100% wrong in their manoeuvre.

Yes the 4x4 driver didn't do himself any favours but the biker is an utter moron.

As well as all his other reckless riding he is crap at reading other drivers too. It was perfectly obvious to me that the 4x4 was going to change lanes, he dawdled behind the car in L2 even though the gap in his lane was there and he drifted towards the left edge of his own lane seconds before he started moving over (a lot of crap drivers do this).

As well as that the bike was in the far left of his lane where he was most likely to be unseen by the 4x4 driver and he also started accelerating towards the car slightly infront in lane 2. It is likely the 4x4 saw the bike at the beginning when he was in a more visible position to his mirrors and only moved over when the bike had apparently gone, not realising the biker was "filtering" in fast moving traffic.

There is some irony in a biker who puts up videos to highlight the stupidity of the cagers riding in a manner where his life depends on none of those cagers having a moment of inattention while he dodges past them.

rameire

for the specific incident in question the 4 wheeled vehicle driver should have checked before moving and indicated better, thus he was in the wrong.
as an ex biker, I found the bikers driving stressful to watch, and I liked to filter through traffic.

Irish Steve

Pot, Kettle. black, the number of offences from quite a few people is mind numbing.

The 4 x 4 should not have been in Lane 3 for as long as he was, and only moved out when someone started "pushing" from behind, and the biker should not have been trying to pass the 4 x 4 on his nearside, but with his track record over the previous few minutes, he's clearly not bothered about his driving standards, or where he positions his bike in relation to other drivers.

Different 4 x 4's have different mirrors, and some are a lot better than others, I have a similar 4 x 4, and even with big mirrors on mine, there are times when seeing what's going on behind on the nearside can be a challenge, especially at night in the rain, and the last thing I need is someone coming at me at speed on that side. That said, the 4x4 driver didn't do it right in terms of how he moved, or the way he did it, but that's only a small proportion of the many failings that are so evident on that video.

The bike rider has some neck, and as for complaining about the 4 x 4 driver, there's plenty of drivers that could legitimately complain about the manner in which he was driving, but he clearly doesn't care about that.

And before I get slammed by the bikers, I have a full bike licence, and used it for a good number of years on a decent size and performance bike, so I do know what I'm talking about in that area too.

The whole video is a damning indictment of just how bad overall driving standards are in this country, and it's one of the reasons why, if at all possible, I avoid the M50 at peak periods.

MadDog76

challengemaster wrote: »

There's probably a good 200 offences on video there :pac:

The jeep, one offence (maybe) .......... the biker 199 offences (at least) ....... and the biker puts the video on YouTube?!!???!!! WTF!!??!!!! :eek:

The biker: "I know it's illegal but probably safer ........ f*ck it, better to be safe", then undertakes a rake of cars on the "hard-shoulder" ...... what a f*cking idiot!!!!

Red Kev

Jeep driver at fault for not being fully aware.

Biker should have started to brake when he saw the Jeep moving over, he seems to be a bad driver.

Biker drives like a tosser anyway.

His commentating on himself is somewhere between embarrassing and disturbing.

muddle84

bk wrote: »

If you were to do what the 4x4 driver did during your driving test, you would fail the test.

This could not happen in a driving test as you can't go onto the motorway in a driving test.:D

muddle84

The 4x4 was definitely in the wrong moving into the lane when the bike was there, the bike was there long enough for the 4x4 to be aware of him. But so what! At least the 4x4 moved into the lane slow enough that the bike could avoid him safely. The M50 is littered with people that don't know how to use a motorway including both the biker and the 4x4 in this video. If you want to be safe on the road you need to be completely aware of your surroundings and all other road users and you have to allow for people making stupid mistakes like the 4x4 in this video. How many times does this sort of stuff happen on every dual carriageway and motorway in the country every day?

Infini

Bikers the one in the wrong flat out. Even looking at his driving hes driving in between the traffic into peoples blind spots. At speed for that matter. One thing about driving on the road is dont argue with something bigger than you and for bikers this means dont argue with ANYONE since if you pull up on someone changing lanes and are in their blind spot your the one gonna come off worse.