No overall story arc or end in sight... (comic and TV spoilers)

BigStupidGuy

I've read all the comics and seen everything to do with the show, and half of me regrets it now.

Kirkman has no idea when the comics are going to end, he seems like he just wants to keep going until he can squeeze every last cent out of the franchise. Whilst I do not have anything personal against the guy I can't help but notice the effect this has had and I feel compelled to share my comments and criticisms...

The story just keeps going round in circles... Our hero survivors establish a base somewhere, "bad guy" humans from nearby ruin everything. In the process some people die, and some new characters join. Repeat.

This is fine once or twice, as long as it serves an overall story arc which the writer originally had in mind, but god damn... Kirkman doesn't seem to have any clue where he's going with the comic. I mean, in the comic letters he's quite clear that he just want to keep going as long as possible and as long as some people are reading.

For me at least, it's made the comic quite boring now, I feel like I'm going to be a rotting corpse myself before the story goes anywhere near the only questions anyone really cares about. Like, for example why are there dead people walking around the place?... seriously like WTF how has that question been avoided so long? Let alone more complex questions like why haven't the walkers disintegrated into ash without any source of energy the past several years? He says there's a reason for this, but I seriously doubt it's a good one (if there even is one). I call BS, he's just holding out until he has lost a certain amount of sales and then is going to give some half baked excuse why the whole thing happened whilst cashing in a check (materialized by the hopes of faithful readers) not being able to believe how lucky he got stringing people along with a half baked story.

Does anyone else feel this way? Like, the story is SERIOUSLY lacking... Negan and Carl are the best characters now.

JaCrispy

I couldn't agree more. It's all getting very very repetitive.

BigStupidGuy

I do wonder what's going to happen to the TV series, apparently it'll last around 8 seasons, so they're going to have to wrap it up pretty soon. (before the comic's finished I guess)

5starpool

I have heard that AMC have said they have no specific timeline for ending the show. If it is still as popular in season 8 as it is now you can be sure they will commission a 9th and 10th season. Using the comics as a guide, even as it is now, they have enough for another 5 seasons and they still have got nowhere as said above. If they do decide to timebox the tv show rather than just ending abruptly, it might be best for all. I'd rather have an ending decided by the tv showrunners than no ending at all.

I'd love Kirkman (or whoever) to say that they do have an endgame in mind for the story, even if they don't know when it might be concluded. The conclusion might not be a cure, or even an explanation, although that would be nice, but just that they know how it will end eventually. It may be that it ends with people dying by attrition and the last survivor or 2 go for months without seeing another person and know that humanity is truly dead. That would be a bit crap, but at least it would be an ending. I'd just like to know there is something in mind rather than, as said above, just continuing on in the same vein as they have for over a decade now.

Nervous Wreck

Imo, the comics went downhill after the prison arc. They were decent enough for a short while after but really, by the end of that arc, they'd played their hand.

Keplar240B

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Imo, the comics went downhill after the prison arc. They were decent enough for a short while after but really, by the end of that arc, they'd played their hand.

I think they where still pretty good until the wider world arc ie. after jesus came in.
They took way too long to resolve the Negan arc tons of filler and the conflict was baldy written also the tiger and jesus etc.

27 issues to warp up Negan that's over two seasons of TV at current rate I say TV show will do it in one

I think since the time jump the whispers arc is pretty good not as good as before but better than negan arc

Keplar240B

BigStupidGuy wrote: »

I've read all the comics and seen everything to do with the show, and half of me regrets it now.

Kirkman has no idea when the comics are going to end, he seems like he just wants to keep going until he can squeeze every last cent out of the franchise. Whilst I do not have anything personal against the guy I can't help but notice the effect this has had and I feel compelled to share my comments and criticisms...

The story just keeps going round in circles... Our hero survivors establish a base somewhere, "bad guy" humans from nearby ruin everything. In the process some people die, and some new characters join. Repeat.

This is fine once or twice, as long as it serves an overall story arc which the writer originally had in mind, but god damn... Kirkman doesn't seem to have any clue where he's going with the comic. I mean, in the comic letters he's quite clear that he just want to keep going as long as possible and as long as some people are reading.

For me at least, it's made the comic quite boring now, I feel like I'm going to be a rotting corpse myself before the story goes anywhere near the only questions anyone really cares about. Like, for example why are there dead people walking around the place?... seriously like WTF how has that question been avoided so long? Let alone more complex questions like why haven't the walkers disintegrated into ash without any source of energy the past several years? He says there's a reason for this, but I seriously doubt it's a good one (if there even is one). I call BS, he's just holding out until he has lost a certain amount of sales and then is going to give some half baked excuse why the whole thing happened whilst cashing in a check (materialized by the hopes of faithful readers) not being able to believe how lucky he got stringing people along with a half baked story.

Does anyone else feel this way? Like, the story is SERIOUSLY lacking... Negan and Carl are the best characters now.

Kirkman has said he wants to the comic to last up to 250-300 issues repeatedly.

The Tv producers have said
Executive producer David Alpert said in 2014, that the original comics have given them enough ideas for Rick Grimes and company over the next seven years. "I happen to love working from source material, specifically because we have a pretty good idea of what Season 10 is gonna be", Alpert said. "We know where seasons 11 and 12 [will be]... we have benchmarks and milestones for those seasons if we're lucky enough to get there.

why are there dead people walking around the place?
This question will never be answered its not the point of show TPTB have said this.
Its about struggle to survive in and adapt to a world filled with zombies and some humans who are even more dangerous than the zombies themselves
its about group dynamics infighting and conflicts interactions with other groups good, bad and everything in-between. A group of wretched refugees rebuilding civilization that's the arc.

The zombies are repetitive and getting more decayed and boring
despite the show constantly introducing zombies in every type of situation they can think of (water fire, mud, buried, sewer etc )
The show uses the zombies too much I think they cannot even go for a walk without clutches of them popping out behind very tree,

On the TV show They also overegged the human baddies the Termnius and the wolves where just small groups of bandits (hunters and DC scavengers) in Comics less would have been more IMO
perhaps they should have went for fewer better episodes.


I don't think the Human Group dynamics are as simple or repetitive as you say
the different camps and groups
the have encountered have all had different makes ups and behaviors and styles its not just "good and bad"

They where refugees on road before farm a community smaller than them that took them in the farm was overrun by a herd ,

they they took a a prison
and clashed with another good community but which had a "bad" Governor
eventually the Governor was routed and two groups merged
but then after the Super FLU ravaged the prison the Governor came back
six months later with a new group and TANK and routed them.

They are refugees again and began there trek to DC encountered various groups along the way

before being taken in by a much bigger group in secure town

The next stage is they are introduced to a wider community of 4 groups
3 "good" plus one mafia type group(negan) demanding supplies for protection
eventually Negan is beaten and the remains of his group become another equal member of network .

Next this thriving network of 4 encounter the bizarre nomadic whispers group.

All of these situation are different and the situation is constantly evolving
towards civilization from a group of wretched refugees in a quarry to a network of small towns threat-ed by nomadic barbarian tribe that's the arc

as for the ending i don't know they either build a sustainable civilization or they get wiped out , I guess we will see another evolution of the groups(city state?) to deal with whispers after that I don't know. I suppose they could show that newborns don't have the bug does giving hope for future.

Sand

BigStupidGuy wrote: »

The story just keeps going round in circles... Our hero survivors establish a base somewhere, "bad guy" humans from nearby ruin everything. In the process some people die, and some new characters join. Repeat.

This is fine once or twice, as long as it serves an overall story arc which the writer originally had in mind, but god damn... Kirkman doesn't seem to have any clue where he's going with the comic. I mean, in the comic letters he's quite clear that he just want to keep going as long as possible and as long as some people are reading.

There's a lot of repetition. The comic introduces, disposes of and then replaces characters and locations in the story fairly routinely. For example, Tyreese and Abraham play exactly the same role in the comics. An alpha male type who is physically stronger than Rick, conflict arises before they recognise Ricks innate brilliance and become a loyal right hand man. The scene is set, the cast is introduced, stuff happens, and then everything is reset in a new scene, some new faces but basically the same story.

You're right that the comic series does not seem to have a defined beginning, middle or end. Nobody could say where exactly in the arc the comic is. It plays out more as a series of "and then this happened" accounts. I think the TV series does it better and benefits from being Kirkmans second version, lessons learnt, etc but it is limited to a certain extent by the series having to follow the same broad brush strokes as the comic its based on.

A lot of episodic stories do this though - its not a flaw unique to the walking dead. So long as there is an audience, entertainers will continue to give them what they want. The writers of any comic or show have to keep enough loose ends to serve another season whilst not letting it get so far out of control that they cant tie it up with a neat conclusion when the the audience is growing bored and its time to move on to a new project.

I enjoy the story, so long as its well told.

For me at least, it's made the comic quite boring now, I feel like I'm going to be a rotting corpse myself before the story goes anywhere near the only questions anyone really cares about. Like, for example why are there dead people walking around the place?... seriously like WTF how has that question been avoided so long? Let alone more complex questions like why haven't the walkers disintegrated into ash without any source of energy the past several years?

I don't think those questions will ever be addressed, but I don't think its necessary either. There is no valid, logical explanation for the dead to suddenly rise up and attack the living, so why waste time with pseudo-science? I think its perfectly fine for a storyteller to simply state the dead are rising up, and then leave the "why" for the reader to worry about. The characters have more immediate concerns.

Keplar240B wrote: »

All of these situation are different and the situation is constantly evolving
towards civilization from a group of wretched refugees in a quarry to a network of small towns threat-ed by nomadic barbarian tribe that's the arc

You can argue its the same story, but retold on a progressively larger scale - from the conflict between the individuals of original group at the camp to the conflict at between the settlements. There is always the backdrop threat of the walkers, distrust of or dissent against Ricks leadership which is ultimately resolved in Ricks favour, and a dangerous human rival or group who poses a clear danger to Rick personally and his loved ones. This antagonist forces some terrible loss or sacrifice upon Rick prior to or as part of their own defeat. Shane initially all the way up to Negan. Rick succeeds, the stage is reset and the stakes are raised for the next telling of the story.

If we talk about an arc, do you think the story is still beginning, in the middle or closing to the end?

BigStupidGuy

Sand wrote: »

If we talk about an arc, do you think the story is still beginning, in the middle or closing to the end?

In all honestly I don't think the writer even knows. I would reckon though, that the series is about halfway through it's lifespan.

Keplar240B

Sand wrote: »

There's a lot of repetition. The comic introduces, disposes of and then replaces characters and locations in the story fairly routinely. For example, Tyreese and Abraham play exactly the same role in the comics. An alpha male type who is physically stronger than Rick, conflict arises before they recognise Ricks innate brilliance and become a loyal right hand man. The scene is set, the cast is introduced, stuff happens, and then everything is reset in a new scene, some new faces but basically the same story.

You're right that the comic series does not seem to have a defined beginning, middle or end. Nobody could say where exactly in the arc the comic is. It plays out more as a series of "and then this happened" accounts. I think the TV series does it better and benefits from being Kirkmans second version, lessons learnt, etc but it is limited to a certain extent by the series having to follow the same broad brush strokes as the comic its based on.

A lot of episodic stories do this though - its not a flaw unique to the walking dead. So long as there is an audience, entertainers will continue to give them what they want. The writers of any comic or show have to keep enough loose ends to serve another season whilst not letting it get so far out of control that they cant tie it up with a neat conclusion when the the audience is growing bored and its time to move on to a new project.

I enjoy the story, so long as its well told.



I don't think those questions will ever be addressed, but I don't think its necessary either. There is no valid, logical explanation for the dead to suddenly rise up and attack the living, so why waste time with pseudo-science? I think its perfectly fine for a storyteller to simply state the dead are rising up, and then leave the "why" for the reader to worry about. The characters have more immediate concerns.



You can argue its the same story, but retold on a progressively larger scale - from the conflict between the individuals of original group at the camp to the conflict at between the settlements. There is always the backdrop threat of the walkers, distrust of or dissent against Ricks leadership which is ultimately resolved in Ricks favour, and a dangerous human rival or group who poses a clear danger to Rick personally and his loved ones. This antagonist forces some terrible loss or sacrifice upon Rick prior to or as part of their own defeat. Shane initially all the way up to Negan. Rick succeeds, the stage is reset and the stakes are raised for the next telling of the story.

If we talk about an arc, do you think the story is still beginning, in the middle or closing to the end?

Why does a story have to have 3 phases? can it not be a set of distinct chapters if the story is rebuilding civilization clearly there are not proceeding in a linear fashion
sometimes they talk a step forward and then take three back.

I am not sure where the comics go from here
I assume the four trading villages win or consume the whispers
and in doing so they become a united mini-city state with a standing army and laws and such...
another evolution ...
or do the whispers win and the survivors are thrown into another great migration?

Kirkman has repeatedly said he wants 300 issues roughly I don't see it though where could it possible go after this chapter.

During a Reddit AMA session held earlier today, Robert Kirkman reiterated his previous position that The Walking Dead will run around 300 issues -- but clarified that it's not a specific number, as much as the general plan he has.
"I do plan on doing at least 300 issues, but if I'm having this much fun then I won't stop there," Kirkman told a fan who asked about the number, which he's mentioned in interviews before. "Also, if I suddenly start having a lot LESS fun, I may end it earlier, but I don't see that happening. I'm in for the long haul, and Charlie Adlard is too."
http://comicbook.com/blog/2014/03/20/the-walking-dead-planned-for-around-300-issues-depending-on-how-fun-it-is/

"I hope The Walking Dead goes on long enough that at the end, everyone is like, ‘Good thing we took care of those zombies,'" Kirkman said on Marc Maron's WTF Podcast.
"People talk about how The Walking Dead is bleak, and if you take a certain cross-section of the story, then yeah. Horrible. People have their loved ones eaten and they have a horrible time," he said. "But I see the story from beginning to end, over many, many years about humanity overcoming this insurmountable apocalyptic situation."
http://uk.eonline.com/news/678303/robert-kirkman-wants-the-walking-dead-to-end-in-a-surprising-way

BigStupidGuy

I have no great ideas where the story could go that others haven't already said, but if the writer doesn't even have a "set plan" for the future issues, that's a really REALLY bad sign to me.

Nervous Wreck

Keplar240B wrote: »

Why does a story have to have 3 phases? can it not be a set of distinct chapters if the story is rebuilding civilization clearly there are not proceeding in a linear fashion
[\quote]

Because that's how all story-telling works.

Keplar240B

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Because that's how all story-telling works.

Freytag's analysis was intended to apply to ancient Greek and Shakespearean drama, not modern.

Contemporary dramas increasingly use the fall to increase the relative height of the climax and dramatic impact (melodrama). The protagonist reaches up but falls and succumbs to doubts, fears, and limitations. The negative climax occurs when the protagonist has an epiphany and encounters the greatest fear possible or loses something important, giving the protagonist the courage to take on another obstacle. This confrontation becomes the classic climax

Nervous Wreck

Keplar240B wrote: »

Freytag's analysis was intended to apply to ancient Greek and Shakespearean drama, not modern.

Contemporary dramas increasingly use the fall to increase the relative height of the climax and dramatic impact (melodrama). The protagonist reaches up but falls and succumbs to doubts, fears, and limitations. The negative climax occurs when the protagonist has an epiphany and encounters the greatest fear possible or loses something important, giving the protagonist the courage to take on another obstacle. This confrontation becomes the classic climax

Relevance?

Agricola

I hate how the momentum of season 1, which obviously served its purpose of hooking people into the series, has never been regained. Endless episodes and now seasons of survival and human conflict dramas with never a mention of the bigger picture is getting very old. Even if we buy the idea that the survivors have given up on actually finding out anything about the reason for the apocalypse, it's complete nonsense to think people would NEVER talk about their lives before it or actually speculate on what happened and if its global. Instead we get this noticeably slowed down dragged out melodrama with the odd decent episode per season and the rest, filler.
Im really beginning to think its time to give up on this.

conorhal

I've lost interest in the show as a result of this TBH, the show has effectively become the worlds most popular snuff movie. I'd begun to fell a bit like a walker shuffling endlessly behind this group of miserable ba$tard$.
Part of the problem for me is a lack of humour, I don't mean jokes per se, but even in the most dire of situations, sombody's cracking wise or having a laugh. I'm thinking particularly of that scene in Saving Private Ryan when Ryan, on learning of the death of his brothers, recollects how he and his brother cock blocked their older other brother who was about to get in on with a fatty in the barn. That's life, none of the characters on TWD seems to have much in the way of a sense of humor or even a conversation that isn't all exposition, so i've come to the conclusion that the series is just pretty poorly written.

For those more interested in narrative arc I'd reccomend the Arisen series:
https://www.goodreads.com/series/84669-arisen

I'm addicted to the audiobooks. It's a bit 'hoo-ra!' which is probably unavoidable given that the central characters are a bunch of Delta Force guys tasked with saving the world from the zombie apocalypse.
The rough ark follows them on a mission to recover research from universities and pharma labs around the world that had been working on a vaccine before the fall of civilization. It's pretty epic as compared to the navel gazing nihilism of TWD and at least it feels like it's going somewhere as humanity struggles to defend its last outpost and rebuild.

Sand

conorhal wrote: »

For those more interested in narrative arc I'd reccomend the Arisen series:
https://www.goodreads.com/series/84669-arisen

I'm addicted to the audiobooks. It's a bit 'hoo-ra!' which is probably unavoidable given that the central characters are a bunch of Delta Force guys tasked with saving the world from the zombie apocalypse.
The rough ark follows them on a mission to recover research from universities and pharma labs around the world that had been working on a vaccine before the fall of civilization. It's pretty epic as compared to the navel gazing nihilism of TWD and at least it feels like it's going somewhere as humanity struggles to defend its last outpost and rebuild.

I've read a lot of those books, and I enjoyed them a lot initially. I'd agree there is some optimism, in that the survivors have a defined goal and are struggling to achieve it so there is a story that can be told as opposed to a simple account of events.

But it has a different flaw to TWD. The ****storm of events that regularly descend on the protagonists in an increasingly unbelievable fashion really jar the immersion factor. The dead coming out of their graves seeking the brains of the living is more credible than the relentless series of screwups and misfortune. For example:

The Spec Ops guys are sent to raid the US on the worlds last functioning aircraft carrier. In the course of literally 24 hours, the aircraft carrier suffers a violent mutiny by hundreds of sailors, a simultaneous zombie outbreak hundreds strong, a huge hull breach due to an explosion in the mutiny, runs aground on the US coast, narrowly averts a nuclear meltdown, a jet plane is taken down by zombies, another jet plane collides with a third plane when they are the only planes in the air on the entire Altantic coast of the north american continent, oh and literally millions of zombies assault the marooned carrier in a hive like horde because they sensed the vibration of the carrier running aground. And that is just the supporting cast story to the main event of the Spec Ops raid where even more completely unbelievable stuff is happening.

Christ, as soon as they were building an ammo store on the deck of the carrier, I knew what would happen next because it was the worst thing that could happen.

BigStupidGuy

Thanks for the suggestion! I know it's been a while but I still feel the same way about TWD...

The thing is though, I'm going to finish watching it because I've just invested too much at this stage, I always finish shows I start. But yeah, the humor is a great point! Let's be honest, the show sucks I'm not going to look at it through fan boy goggles anymore. The best thing about TWD is how much money is thrown at it for production. No story, no humor, no clear plot driving us towards a conclusion, it just a money making machine now, not art. Actually, maybe I'll reconsider having to finish watching it.