Online Purchase (Poor quality, Who pays labour costs?)

DakarVert

Okay, Bit of an awkward one.

Is their anyone one here that's familiar with Consumer Rights for online purchases?

-Basically purchased 2 rear Air Suspension Units in Late September (Cost just under €1k!)
-Fitted by main dealer.
-Car wasn't 100%
-Returned to dealer, Who had an independent suspension test done (Both shocks weak with a 7% Imbalance!)
-There is also a very loud knocking coming from the rear suspension.


Contacted company, They will send out a new pair ONLY on receipt of old pair.... Leaving the car immobile and on a lift for a week or 2. (Who pays for this?)

Is their anyway I can simply return the shocks (As they're ****e) and get my money back with them paying original garage labour? (Basically leaving me in the exact position I was before I bought them)


I paid with PayPal, So maybe worth starting a dispute? (But could they also claim for labour costs on my behalf or only original cost?)

davo10

You supplied the materials, the dealer supplied the labour. The materials you supplied to the dealer are substandard, that is not the dealers fault, had they supplied them, they would be responsible for replacement. So you pay the dealer for labour, if you can recover costs from online supplier is your business. This is the downside of supplying materials yourself, it's your fault if they are s**t.

DakarVert

davo10 wrote: »

You supplied the materials, the dealer supplied the labour. The materials you supplied to the dealer are substandard, that is not the dealers fault, had they supplied them, they would be responsible for replacement. So you pay the dealer for labour, if you can recover costs from online supplier is your business. This is the downside of supplying materials yourself, it's your fault if they are s**t.

I know it's not the dealers fault, I'v already paid the dealer.

My problem lies with the online retailer.... They supplied a **** product, Who should I be caught with labour costs?

davo10

DakarVert wrote: »

I know it's not the dealers fault, I'v already paid the dealer.

My problem lies with the online retailer.... They supplied a **** product, Who should I be caught with labour costs?

You, the labour is a completely separate item of service from the product supplied. The seller only sold you the product, what you did with it was up to you, they will replace it or refund you only what you paid for it. You will now have to pay the dealer to take it off and put the second set of new ones on. It's ****ty but that is the joy of direct labour, you might save a few quid if it all works out but you get caught in the middle if it doesn't.

runawaybishop

DakarVert wrote: »

Okay, Bit of an awkward one.

Is their anyone one here that's familiar with Consumer Rights for online purchases?

-Basically purchased 2 rear Air Suspension Units in Late September (Cost just under €1k!)
-Fitted by main dealer.
-Car wasn't 100%
-Returned to dealer, Who had an independent suspension test done (Both shocks weak with a 7% Imbalance!)
-There is also a very loud knocking coming from the rear suspension.


Contacted company, They will send out a new pair ONLY on receipt of old pair.... Leaving the car immobile and on a lift for a week or 2. (Who pays for this?)

Is their anyway I can simply return the shocks (As they're ****e) and get my money back with them paying original garage labour? (Basically leaving me in the exact position I was before I bought them)


I paid with PayPal, So maybe worth starting a dispute? (But could they also claim for labour costs on my behalf or only original cost?)

PayPal won't go near the labour cost, its nothing to do with them. Get a copy of the bill for labour and send it on to the faulty parts supplier, they should cover it. What country are you in and what country did you buy from?

DakarVert

In Ireland,Bought from a German company. (Who also have a UK base)

runawaybishop

DakarVert wrote: »

In Ireland,Bought from a German company. (Who also have a UK base)

Grand so, faulty items must be repaired or replaced with absolutely no extra cost to the consumer, not even shipping costs.

slimjimmc

davo10 wrote: »

You, the labour is a completely separate item of service from the product supplied. The seller only sold you the product, what you did with it was up to you, they will replace it or refund you only what you paid for it. You will now have to pay the dealer to take it off and put the second set of new ones on. It's ****ty but that is the joy of direct labour, you might save a few quid if it all works out but you get caught in the middle if it doesn't.

Actually you are entitled to claim for reasonable costs directly related to the faulty units which means the seller can be liable for the labour cost of replacing them. If the seller won't cover the labour costs up-front then you'll just have to pay up yourself and lodge a claim through the Small Claims Court. No judge is likely to rule against you as you used the suspension units for the purpose they were designed for .i.e. to be fitted to a vehicle.

davo10

slimjimmc wrote: »

Actually you are entitled to claim for reasonable costs directly related to the faulty units which means the seller can be liable for the labour cost of replacing them. If the seller won't cover the labour costs up-front then you'll just have to pay up yourself and lodge a claim through the Small Claims Court. No judge is likely to rule against you as you used the suspension units for the purpose they were designed for .i.e. to be fitted to a vehicle.

Good luck with that. The purchaser didn't fit it, he paid someone else to do it.

runawaybishop

davo10 wrote: »

Good luck with that. The purchaser didn't fit it, he paid someone else to do it.

So?

davo10

runawaybishop wrote: »

So?

Just so.

runawaybishop

davo10 wrote: »

Just so.

Ah no. That's not how it works, if anything having a professional fit it strengthens the ops case.

Edit: in fact, had the OP fitted it then he wouldn't be able to claim his own time.

slimjimmc

davo10 wrote: »

Good luck with that. The purchaser didn't fit it, he paid someone else to do it.

Doesn't matter. It's supposed to be fitted to a car, that's why the OP bought it, it's an natural and reasonable expectation when buying the product. Installation is necessary to use the product as intended, therefore if the product was installed as intended and found to be defective the seller becomes liable the full cost of replacement.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1980/act/16/section/21/enacted/en/html#sec21

(4) The measure of damages for breach of warranty is the estimated loss directly and naturally resulting, in the ordinary course of events, from the breach of warranty.

davo10

runawaybishop wrote: »

Ah no. That's not how it works, if anything having a professional fit it strengthens the ops case.

If the op has a Ford and bought a generic part to save money, if the part is not of the same standard as a Ford part then that is the chance that the op took, even if it was fitted by Ford. To be fair, the supplier has agreed to replace without even seeing it. No damage was done to the car by the part and the new one could be of the same lesser standard as a genuine Ford part. That is the chance you take when you supply the part yourself and pay a dealer to fit. The garage won't care, all they supplied was the labour. I laugh sometimes when I see advice given that the SCC is guaranteed to provide a remedy to every consumer in every case. What if the supplier argues that it was fitted incorrectly? And why would a company in Germany worry about the SCC here when they have replaced the part without quibble?

Regarding the above reference, if supplier fitted it, yes they would be liable for labour costs but they didn't, their contract was to supply the op with the part, they had no contract to fit nor remove it.

DakarVert

All advice taken.

Yes the seller is offering to replace ONLY on receipt of other shocks.

Basically I need to take the car somewhere, remove shocks... LEAVE car on the lift. (I'v nothing to fit) Send them away, Await new shocks and then refit. Possibly leaving the car on a lift for 2 weeks or so.


How does that work?


Just to add, Main dealer couldn't source genuine shocks.....Hence why I ordered from another company, Who specialise in air suspension. (That's all they sell)

slimjimmc

DakarVert wrote: »

All advice taken.

Yes the seller is offering to replace ONLY on receipt of other shocks.

Basically I need to take the car somewhere, remove shocks... LEAVE car on the lift. (I'v nothing to fit) Send them away, Await new shocks and then refit. Possibly leaving the car on a lift for 2 weeks or so.


How does that work?


Just to add, Main dealer couldn't source genuine shocks.....Hence why I ordered from another company, Who specialise in air suspension. (That's all they sell)

See if a refundable security deposit is enough to assure the seller that the dud parts will be returned after the new ones are delivered.

As for the assertion you take a chance when installing non-genuine parts, that's irrelevant unless you're trying to hold the fitter in some way liable for their failure. You have the same legal rights and the seller has the same legal obligations regardless.

runawaybishop

davo10 wrote: »

If the op has a Ford and bought a generic part to save money, if the part is not of the same standard as a Ford part then that is the chance that the op took, even if it was fitted by Ford. To be fair, the supplier has agreed to replace without even seeing it. No damage was done to the car by the part and the new one could be of the same lesser standard as a genuine Ford part. That is the chance you take when you supply the part yourself and pay a dealer to fit. The garage won't care, all they supplied was the labour. I laugh sometimes when I see advice given that the SCC is guaranteed to provide a remedy to every consumer in every case. What if the supplier argues that it was fitted incorrectly? And why would a company in Germany worry about the SCC here when they have replaced the part without quibble?

Regarding the above reference, if supplier fitted it, yes they would be liable for labour costs but they didn't, their contract was to supply the op with the part, they had no contract to fit nor remove it.

What's this nonsense about genuine parts? The item is faulty and the op doesn't bear the cost of refitting it. This is enshrined in EU and Irish law so yes, a German company would have to deal with it. If you sell into a country you need to adhere to their laws.

Have you any link to anything that backs up your assumption?

runawaybishop

DakarVert wrote: »

All advice taken.

Yes the seller is offering to replace ONLY on receipt of other shocks.

Basically I need to take the car somewhere, remove shocks... LEAVE car on the lift. (I'v nothing to fit) Send them away, Await new shocks and then refit. Possibly leaving the car on a lift for 2 weeks or so.


How does that work?


Just to add, Main dealer couldn't source genuine shocks.....Hence why I ordered from another company, Who specialise in air suspension. (That's all they sell)

They can insist on seeing the items to verify they are faulty. They should pay for the pickup/postage but may refund you after you post it, if you agree. You'll need to explain clearly to them the costs involved in them delaying the replacement and they will probably send them out directly.

davo10

runawaybishop wrote: »

What's this nonsense about genuine parts? The item is faulty and the op doesn't bear the cost of refitting it. This is enshrined in EU and Irish law so yes, a German company would have to deal with it. If you sell into a country you need to adhere to their laws.

Have you any link to anything that backs up your assumption?

It's an assumption, not a statement. Go ahead and show me a link to back up your statement. Again. The contract was to supply the part, not to fit it, they was no contract to fit, if there was then yes, the labour costs apply. The op paid the supplier for delivery costs, what he did after that is his business but if you can show me a link that says the supplier is liable for anything beyond delivery, I will bow to your supplier knowledge.

runawaybishop

davo10 wrote: »

It's an assumption, not a statement. Go ahead and show me a link to back up your statement. Again. The contract was to supply the part, not to fit it, they was no contract to fit, if there was then yes, the labour costs apply. The op paid the supplier for delivery costs, what he did after that is his business but if you can show me a link that says the supplier is liable for anything beyond delivery, I will bow to your supplier knowledge.

Slim already posted one. The item is faulty, if it wasn't labour wouldn't come into it.

davo10

runawaybishop wrote: »

Slim already posted one. The item is faulty, if it wasn't labour wouldn't come into it.

The Ford reference was an analogy, if you bring your car to a dealer and pay for new shocks to be supplied AND fitted, then they cannot charge you twice for labour if the first shocks are faulty. If you buy the shocks from an online supplier, you are paying for supply NOT fit (labour) so they are covered by consumer law for the supply only. Your contract for fit is with the dealer, not the online supplier. Again if you can show me a link to a case that says otherwise, I'll apologise profusely for my inadequacies.

For argument sake, let's say the supplier argued that the mechanic didn't fit them correctly, could the op prove they were? On the balance of probability they probably were but as the seller wasn't involved in the fit, it is difficult to prove one way or the other.

runawaybishop

davo10 wrote: »

The Ford reference was an analogy, if you bring your car to a dealer and pay for new shocks to be supplied AND fitted, then they cannot charge you twice for labour if the first shocks are faulty. If you buy the shocks from an online supplier, you are paying for supply NOT fit (labour) so they are covered by consumer law for the supply only. Your contract for fit is with the dealer, not the online supplier. Again if you can show me a link to a case that says otherwise, I'll apologise profusely for my inadequacies.

Don't worry bout an apology. If slims link isn't enough for you I am not too bothered.

davo10

runawaybishop wrote: »

Don't worry bout an apology. If slims link isn't enough for you I am not too bothered.

Great response, so no link then? Again I would interpret slims reference to a scenario where the business was trying to charge again for labour where they had supplied and fitted an item. But who knows for sure? There is nothing set in stone unless of course you can show otherwise.

My point being, the fact that the op bought the item on a supply only basis, there is no guarantee that the SCC. would find in his favour on labour costs as he had no contract with supplier for fit.

DakarVert

Okay, So company have basically said no refund.... Return 'New' Shocks and they will then send on another pair. No other alternatives. (Like the Little Britain Sketch ''Computer Says Noooooo'')

I'v nothing to put under the car, So effectively leaving the car on a lift for up to 2 weeks.... No garage will allow this, Never mind the costs!!


Have been onto PayPal, The company responded to the claim within 4 minutes. Will see where it leads!


Any thought??

runawaybishop

DakarVert wrote: »

Okay, So company have basically said no refund.... Return 'New' Shocks and they will then send on another pair. No other alternatives. (Like the Little Britain Sketch ''Computer Says Noooooo'')

I'v nothing to put under the car, So effectively leaving the car on a lift for up to 2 weeks.... No garage will allow this, Never mind the costs!!


Have been onto PayPal, The company responded to the claim within 4 minutes. Will see where it leads!


Any thought??

Paypal will only deal with the cash that went through them, i.e the price of the shocks. They wont deal with anything else. You'll need to speak firmly to the supplier and get stuff back from them in writing before you can proceed.

DakarVert

runawaybishop wrote: »

Paypal will only deal with the cash that went through them, i.e the price of the shocks. They wont deal with anything else. You'll need to speak firmly to the supplier and get stuff back from them in writing before you can proceed.

Yes I know unfortunately, Will see how I get on with a refund first and chase labour after.

Spent 15mins on the phone to Supplier, Eventually told me there's nothing they can do. Send them back for replacement and then they said I have to end the conversation now and hung up.

I also have various emails of me advising them of a problem, They again saying return for replacement.

And I have an independent suspension test showing a 7% imbalance.

sconhome

What were the T&C of return on their website at the time of purchase?

If their T&C say "in case of faulty goods, you must return item before issue is dealt with" you're on a hiding to nothing trying to go any other route. Why not throw the old shocks in or block up the springs so the car can come off the ramp?

Sooner its dealt with the quicker you get it resolved.

In general I would think the risk is entirely your own where parts are self supplied and labour separately contracted, where liability lies is something I would expect you would need to resolve or attempt to resolve in parallel with getting the car fixed ASAP and out of the garage.

Technoprisoner

car parts are a bit of a tricky one because there are so many variables in it. The labour should be covered if it is a genuinely faulty part. You said there is a 7% imbalance...this isnt a great amount and no 2 shocks will be the same but there are other factors that could throw that figure out for example a slightly flat tyre ect. I know the parts where fitted by a dealer but doesnt mean that they where fitted correctly or without damaging some other part of the car giving you the knocking noise. so i can understand why the supplier is requesting the old parts before sending new...i know this doesnt really help you but just gives you a little more insight

DakarVert

AKW wrote: »

What were the T&C of return on their website at the time of purchase?

If their T&C say "in case of faulty goods, you must return item before issue is dealt with" you're on a hiding to nothing trying to go any other route. Why not throw the old shocks in or block up the springs so the car can come off the ramp?

Sooner its dealt with the quicker you get it resolved.

In general I would think the risk is entirely your own where parts are self supplied and labour separately contracted, where liability lies is something I would expect you would need to resolve or attempt to resolve in parallel with getting the car fixed ASAP and out of the garage.

It's simply not possible to move the car without Rear Suspension in place, It's also Air Suspension, No springs.

Okay, Fit old ones move car... Then get new ones again and remove old... (Will costs hundreds and hundreds in labour)

RETURNS:
''The cancellation period will expire after 30 days from the day on which you acquire, or a third party other than the carrier and indicated by you acquires, physical possession of the goods''

I received them on September 29th, So 37 days ago today. Fitted on October 2nd and I'v been in contact with them since October 5th regards issues.

They offer a 2 year Warranty,

''6) Liability for defects
The statutory consumer rights will apply''

Can anyone explain this,
''Any contractual relationships between the parties are governed by British law excluding the UN-Convention on Contract for the International Sale of Goods and the courts of the State where the Client is domiciled will have exclusive jurisdiction over any dispute relating to these relationships''

DakarVert

Technoprisoner wrote: »

car parts are a bit of a tricky one because there are so many variables in it. The labour should be covered if it is a genuinely faulty part. You said there is a 7% imbalance...this isnt a great amount and no 2 shocks will be the same but there are other factors that could throw that figure out for example a slightly flat tyre ect. I know the parts where fitted by a dealer but doesnt mean that they where fitted correctly or without damaging some other part of the car giving you the knocking noise. so i can understand why the supplier is requesting the old parts before sending new...i know this doesnt really help you but just gives you a little more insight

Should ad, Aswell as 7% Imbalance both shocks are very weak and there is a loud knocking coming from the suspension now.

I have every faith in the garage as they have always looked after the car with 0 issue.


Coincidentally, I was told on the phone yesterday I had received old stock.... As of last night, The particular item I ordered is now showing as out of stock.

sconhome

Thanks I wasn't aware of the issues with the type of suspension.

It reads though that the car is sitting immobile for the last month while you are trying to figure out what to do? My point is why not do what they say, return the goods, get replacements and then sort out the surrounding issues. Legally if you have to but the longer you leave the car sitting the more it will cost you (?)

Technoprisoner

DakarVert wrote: »

Should ad, Aswell as 7% Imbalance both shocks are very weak and there is a loud knocking coming from the suspension now.

I have every faith in the garage as they have always looked after the car with 0 issue.


Coincidentally, I was told on the phone yesterday I had received old stock.... As of last night, The particular item I ordered is now showing as out of stock.

7% isnt that big to be fair...if i remember correctly an nct fail is 30%. I work in the parts trade and know from experience, and seeing it first hand that the most reliable mechanics make mistakes every now and again and i have seen a number of faults due to incorrect fitment. i am not saying that this is the case this time im just saying keep it in mind

DakarVert

AKW wrote: »

Thanks I wasn't aware of the issues with the type of suspension.

It reads though that the car is sitting immobile for the last month while you are trying to figure out what to do? My point is why not do what they say, return the goods, get replacements and then sort out the surrounding issues. Legally if you have to but the longer you leave the car sitting the more it will cost you (?)

Sorry, I'll explain better. The car is on Air Suspension. (Not possible to get the car from factory WITHOUT Air Suspension)

Car is driveable, But there is a very loud knocking noise. (Don't want to do further damage)

It's not actually possible to return, Unless I leave the car on a lift for 2 weeks or so. (Which they informed me was my problem)
The costs are going to be eye watering.


They other option is to purchase a new pair again, But I really don't feel comfortable giving these shower another €1k!

DakarVert

Technoprisoner wrote: »

7% isnt that big to be fair...if i remember correctly an nct fail is 30%. I work in the parts trade and know from experience

I agree, But for new suspension?

Also bare in mind they are both weak, I have a print to prove this.
They're actually weaker than the original fronts. (Around 8 years old now)

There's also a very loud knocking, (Like a very bad top-mount) It can't be a Top-Mount though as the suspension is an all in 1 unit.

TheChizler

DakarVert wrote: »

They other option is to purchase a new pair again, But I really don't feel comfortable giving these shower another €1k!

Maybe the garage would agree to refund you if you do this if they find a fault with the first ones sent out?

JimsAlterEgo

buy new ones somewhere else and then pursue them for a refund.