Conn Ultra Advice - Training Pace's

PDCAT

Hi Folks

Looking for some advice around training pace's for Conn Ultra.
My backround is 7 marathons (pb 3.11 - chicago 2015).
Looking to run this sub 5.45 maybe sub 5.30.

I'm basically using the P&D 55 mpw plan (5 days per week) - moving some run's around (for example Sunday LSR moved to Saturday, Midweek medium long run moved to Sunday). Adding a few miles onto these to bring mileage up. My highest weekly mileage will be 60+.
Plan to run Donadea 50k in Feb, Tralee Marathon in March.

My weekly plan looks like:
Mon - Rest
Tues - 5/6 mile recovery
Weds - 8 mile (Alternating between LT or GA runs)
Thurs - 5/6 mile recovery
Fri - Rest
Sat - Between 16 - 24 miles
Sun - Between 10 - 16 miles

My questions revolve around my training paces.
Sub 5.30 for Conn Ultra is approx 8.20 - 8.25 pace (i think)

What pace's should i run my Sat & Sun long run's?
For marathon training - i 'd run these at 8.20 - 8.25 pace.
Should i slow these down for Ultra Training?

I've also included some LT run's in the plan to try and maintain some speed as i don't want to lose too much speed while training for this ultra.
Is this ok?

Also P&D include VO2 Max sessions in the plan. What should i replace these with as i'm assuming these sessions will likely lead to injury with the added mileage?

All advice welcome.

menoscemo

All good as per your plan IMO. Try to run your Saturday run on the easy end of your LSR pace and if possible the Sunday run a little faster.
In general the training paces should be the same is if you were training for a Marathon.
My Only advice would be make sure not to be too tempted to run the 50k or Tralee marathon too hard!!

PDCAT

menoscemo wrote: »

All good as per your plan IMO. Try to run your Saturday run on the easy end of your LSR pace and if possible the Sunday run a little faster.
In general the training paces should be the same is if you were training for a Marathon.
My Only advice would be make sure not to be too tempted to run the 50k or Tralee marathon too hard!!

Thanks Meno.
My plan for Donadea & Tralee would probably be to run at 8.20 - 8.25 pace similar to the plan for Conn Ultra. (use them as an MP run so to speak).

Would Saturday LSR 9 minute mile pace, Sunday 8.30 pace be ok?

Also what do you think of LT & VO2 Max runs during the week?

menoscemo

PDCAT wrote: »

Thanks Meno.
My plan for Donadea & Tralee would probably be to run at 8.20 - 8.25 pace similar to the plan for Conn Ultra. (use them as an MP run so to speak).

Would Saturday LSR 9 minute mile pace, Sunday 8.30 pace be ok?

Also what do you think of LT & VO2 Max runs during the week?

Personally I'd try to keep the LSR paces the same as for your Marathon training. Maybe 8:30 on Saturday and 8;15 on sunday (if it feels ok) in your case.

Definitely a good idea to keep doing one session during the week and a few strides too. I'd even throw in the odd race. You shouldn't lose too much speed in this cycle at all tbh.

PDCAT

menoscemo wrote: »

Personally I'd try to keep the LSR paces the same as for your Marathon training. Maybe 8:30 on Saturday and 8;15 on sunday (if it feels ok) in your case.

Definitely a good idea to keep doing one session during the week and a few strides too. I'd even throw in the odd race. You shouldn't lose too much speed in this cycle at all tbh.

Cheers Meno, makes sense.

Also, good that i can keep tipping away at the faster stuff.....

Killerz

Some useful guidance there, I've a similar plan for Spring, albeit without Tralee in the middle

Ed Mc

I raced conn ultra this year but my training approach would have been a little different to what your planning.

I ran mainly all easy miles with no sessions at all.
There were lots of back to backs peaking at 30/25 twice(IIRC)
These were around 9min. Mile and slower. I never really ran any faster than 8min. Mile on any runs.

On the day I ran 1:45/1:45/1:53 finishing in 5:23

Positive split really is the way to approach this course IMO.

Anyway I know my approach would have been very different to most but it really worked for me.
I wasn't too concerned about losing speed,I didn't have much to lose, but 4weeks after conn I did knock 11mins. Off my marathon pb.

I suppose I was planning on going further after conn were you are probably planning on shorter stuff.

All the best anyway.

PDCAT

Ed Mc wrote: »

I raced conn ultra this year but my training approach would have been a little different to what your planning.

I ran mainly all easy miles with no sessions at all.
There were lots of back to backs peaking at 30/25 twice(IIRC)
These were around 9min. Mile and slower. I never really ran any faster than 8min. Mile on any runs.

On the day I ran 1:45/1:45/1:53 finishing in 5:23

Positive split really is the way to approach this course IMO.

Anyway I know my approach would have been very different to most but it really worked for me.
I wasn't too concerned about losing speed,I didn't have much to lose, but 4weeks after conn I did knock 11mins. Off my marathon pb.

I suppose I was planning on going further after conn were you are probably planning on shorter stuff.

All the best anyway.

Fair play Ed on those back to back run's. Not sure that i'd be able to take 30/25 on....Thats some mileage.
My plan for the day is exactly as you have above 1.45/1.45/?.
Hopefully the last section will be less than 2 hours. That's the plan anyway.
Plan at the moment is after Conn, to drop back to shorter stuff for a while. No real plans to push on with longer ultras.

martyboy48

Hey PDCAT, I did Conn ultra this year also. It was my first ultra so was glad to get feedback from around here..

My runs also were easyish miles around the 8:20/8:25/mile mark(coming from a 3:27DCM'14).

I didn't do any sessions as such, but looking back on strava, I did a couple of 12 mile runs around 7:30 pace just to change it a little, probably of no real benefit just for the head..

I maxed out at just over 90 miles for the week with a 30 miler on the saturday(8:27pace), and a 15 miles on the sunday(8:19 pace).

I ran about a 3:33 marathon distance, and finished in a little under 5:35 for ultra distance.

As Ed says, a positive split the was to go, the final third is the meaty end with a few little hills and can be tough going when tired.. I had a few short walk breaks in the final third between running out of energy(only drank water) and maybe not enough strength in the legs...

All in all, it was a great event, one which I may revisit in future... You may see my run here and an idea od my build up mileage wise..

Run

Log(Go back to April )

I separated them in case my accound isn't fully unlocked...

Anyway, I'm sure you'll enjoy it after all the training, enjoy

Enduro

Gotta disagree with you lads advocating a positive split. Having this as an aim is most likely to result in going out a little too fast and having a disastrous finish. I even-splitted this race the last time I ran it (which was a negative split effort wise). The fact that the last one third is the hardest is an even bigger reason to avoid aiming for a positive split. It compounds any slowdown caused by getting the pacing wrong. You should be arriving to the start of the last half marathon thinking "That's the end of the lead in, now time to dig in and start racing", and not "phew, that's the fast bit over with, now just have to jog to the finish".

martyboy48

Kinda see what you're saying but for me doing it, if I was going for even splits or a bit of a negative,. I'd probably go at it way to conservatively being my first one. If I was doing it next year I could use what I learned from it...

I'd just be of the thinking that the positive split is fairly normal on that course from memory, not saying it's definitely the way to go, but maybe to be expected for your first one.

I realise that somewhat is different to what I posted earlier :-P

Enduro

martyboy48 wrote: »

Kinda see what you're saying but for me doing it, if I was going for even splits or a bit of a negative,. I'd probably go at it way to conservatively being my first one. If I was doing it next year I could use what I learned from it...

I'd just be of the thinking that the positive split is fairly normal on that course from memory, not saying it's definitely the way to go, but maybe to be expected for your first one.

I realise that somewhat is different to what I posted earlier :-P

Going out too conservatively is easy to compensate for... you just charge up the last "hell of the west climb", overtaking everyone in sight, and sprint home to the finish. I'm willing to bet that that just wouldn't happen though, as the chances of getting this race wrong by being too conservative in the early stages are very slim indeed. The chances of being too aggressive are extemely high indeed though, and will only be further heightened by having this as pretty much your actual race plan! And there is no recovering from that, just a crappy slowdown of a race finish being overtaken by the few people who pace their race more effectively.

I absolutely agree that a positive split in this race is normal. It's probably normal in most races. The reason being that most people tend to go out too fast and die off in the second half, whatever the distance. But just because it is normal doesn't mean its effective. Just like other races a negative split is much more likely to be more effective. Just because this race is longer than a marathon doesn't make this any less the case, it just means it takes a little more discipline to execute correctly.

Oisin11178

PDCAT wrote: »

Hi Folks

Looking for some advice around training pace's for Conn Ultra.
My backround is 7 marathons (pb 3.11 - chicago 2015).
Looking to run this sub 5.45 maybe sub 5.30.

I'm basically using the P&D 55 mpw plan (5 days per week) - moving some run's around (for example Sunday LSR moved to Saturday, Midweek medium long run moved to Sunday). Adding a few miles onto these to bring mileage up. My highest weekly mileage will be 60+.
Plan to run Donadea 50k in Feb, Tralee Marathon in March.

My weekly plan looks like:
Mon - Rest
Tues - 5/6 mile recovery
Weds - 8 mile (Alternating between LT or GA runs)
Thurs - 5/6 mile recovery
Fri - Rest
Sat - Between 16 - 24 miles
Sun - Between 10 - 16 miles

My questions revolve around my training paces.
Sub 5.30 for Conn Ultra is approx 8.20 - 8.25 pace (i think)

What pace's should i run my Sat & Sun long run's?
For marathon training - i 'd run these at 8.20 - 8.25 pace.
Should i slow these down for Ultra Training?

I've also included some LT run's in the plan to try and maintain some speed as i don't want to lose too much speed while training for this ultra.
Is this ok?

Also P&D include VO2 Max sessions in the plan. What should i replace these with as i'm assuming these sessions will likely lead to injury with the added mileage?

All advice welcome.

I did 5.31 off a 3.10 pb a couple of months before it. I can tell you what I did it may be of some help to you. I continued my marathon training and just extended my long run to around marathon distance at around 3.45 pace. On the day I got a little faster in the 3 sections. I think about 3.42/43 for marathon and pushed on a little bit. If you do the right training you should never aim for a positive split in my opionion. Its a tough race with the 2 hills at the end but not impossible

Ed Mc

@Enduro
If you were targeting conn ultra as your goal race
what sessions and long runs would you be including?

Enduro

Ed Mc wrote: »

@Enduro
If you were targeting conn ultra as your goal race
what sessions and long runs would you be including?

In broad terms, a somewhat lenghtened Marathon programme, making sure to have long back to backs most weekends. In my own case I'd have to put more emphasis on speedwork, so I definitely agree with the advice above of making sure to keep the speedwork sessions.

My thinking on back to back long runs is that the second one is the one where you're getting the ultra training in, as you're in a more fatigued state starting. So if one has to be longer, then it would be the second one. The pace simply just has to be slow enough that you can run the whole thing non-stop. It's about time on feet rather than speed for these sessions. Build out the distance/time over the weeks. For something of the distance of the conn ultra I'd be working up to getting that run to the expected race duration (but, again, that's for me, that's an easy target in my case).

PDCAT

Thanks Folks for the feedback.
Lots to think about, both for the Training Plan & how to pace the ultra on the day.
I'm happy enough with the plan i've got, the pace's are fine, speedwork included.
Only issue i have is (as i've kept the running to 5 days), my longest mileage weeks are 60,61,63. Still a little light compared to a few of the guys above.

i've included three 40 mile weekends including Donadea 50k & Tralee marathon aswell. At the moment i'm happy to keep the plan as is.
However, i may decided after christmas to through in a extra day to boost up the miles a little.

Enduro

One thing I forgot to add.... hills!

It's an undulating couse, so it's very benificial to incorporate hills into your training. If you're well trained for hills you'll find the hills in Conn to be an opportunity to overtake people, rather than obstacles in your way.