What are the plans when buying off plans

prosaic

We're looking at buying in Hamilton Park, D15.

The agent says developer will not provide plans but the house will be the same as the show house and if we want dimensions, we should measure in the show house.

Why not provide plans? What guarantee that they will build exactly like the show house. Can we in some way insure that what we are buying is what we think we are buying. It's be nice to have some solid basis for the contract when placing deposit. Can/should we get it in writing that they will provide a house of the same dimensions as the show house?

We got the plans from Fingal planning and paced the rooms in show house; they are close to being the same but possibly a little shorter. I will need to bring a tape measure and do a full measurement of show house.

Any other things to beware of when buying from plans?

Any recommendations for Solicitors gladly accepted by PM.

handlemaster

Why would you buy without seeing the plans crazy .

tinkerbell

You would be insane to buy a house "off plans" with no actual plans / dimensions etc given to you as part of your contract.

Shedite27

They must have plans for the planning permission, have a look for that there...
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/planning-and-buildings/apply-or-search-for-a-planning-application/view-or-search-planning-applications/

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

Why would you buy without seeing the plans crazy .

tinkerbell wrote: »

You would be insane to buy a house "off plans" with no actual plans / dimensions etc given to you as part of your contract.

See comment below, nobody will provide dimensioned plans as part of a contract for a house that's not built yet, due to slight construction varaitions.

Shedite27 wrote: »

They must have plans for the planning permission, have a look for that there...
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/planning-and-buildings/apply-or-search-for-a-planning-application/view-or-search-planning-applications/

The OP has already viewed the Planning drawings online, but they will have no impact on the construction drawings that they want to see.

what kind of plan is the OP looking for?
The builder will not proved detailed measured plans as they may change slightly during construction to allow for compliance with Building Regulations etc

Under no circumstances should a buyer be pre-ordering furniture, carpets etc based off the show house or plans shown, as they should measure their actual home when they get it.

At the very least the OP should see a colourful site plan indication where their house will be and a brochure plan from the estate agent, but again it is not mandatory. We have bought twice from plans but then again I work in the industry.

@OP - Post up the Planning Reference number and ill see what I can dig out for you.

prosaic

Thanks for replies so far.

I have studied the plans on fingal website closely. The ref is fw14A/0066. I've also got the lovely cartoon pictures on the brochure.

I well understand that there may be quite small variations in dimensions, e.g. 5 or 10mm for example but it should be possible to say that the house will be built to a specification within a certain tolerance or error. This is the basis of contract between architect/builder and client. If it works for these people, it should work for anyone. It could be also subject to reasonable adjustments due to changes in building regs.

I presume they have have already supplied the builder with drawings that will be used to construct the specific house. My worry would be that they could change their minds in 5 months time, before construction commences, and give updated plans to builder for a house of different dimensions.

I understand from a recent conversation that absolutely nothing the estate agent says, or the lovely colourful brochures show, counts for anything when it comes to the legally binding contract. If it isn't in the contract that you sign when passing over the deposit, it isn't part of the contract. The extras of tiles, appliances etc can be pulled if they wish.

I've even heard it said that in the boom times, some cases happened where the developer upped the price after contract signed. No sure if that is true though.

Am I being unrealistic and naive to expect some level of specification to be in the contract that I sign? What's to stop them building something 10 or 20 sqm smaller than they previously suggest?

To answer question of insanity, that is a matter I will consider further. But, if you want to buy a house in a new development, you have to swing with the state of the market. If things are moving well, the developer has the upper hand. There will be another guy to step in when you walk away.

This kind of off "plans" contract should have better legal protection than appears to exist at present.

Gumbo

prosaic wrote: »

I have studied the plans on fingal website closely. The ref is fw14A/0066. I've also got the lovely cartoon pictures on the brochure.

Thanks, i'll see if I can some detailed drawings from a friend of a friend.

prosaic wrote: »

I well understand that there may be quite small variations in dimensions, e.g. 5 or 10mm for example but it should be possible to say that the house will be built to a specification within a certain tolerance or error. This is the basis of contract between architect/builder and client. If it works for these people, it should work for anyone. It could be also subject to reasonable adjustments due to changes in building regs.

Small variations to the tune of 100-200mm maybe, to allow for brick coursing etc

Also, once commenced, then new building regulations do not effect the house, as the builder constructs it to the regulations in effect at the time of Commencement Notice lodgement / works commencement.

prosaic wrote: »

I presume they have have already supplied the builder with drawings that will be used to construct the specific house. My worry would be that they could change their minds in 5 months time, before construction commences, and give updated plans to builder for a house of different dimensions.

Am I being unrealistic and naive to expect some level of specification to be in the contract that I sign? What's to stop them building something 10 or 20 sqm smaller than they previously suggest?

They cannot really alter the layout that much due to planning regulations and also building regulations are there are minimum room sizes etc in play here

Ask the solicitor for a copy of the construction drawings and the plans and specifications lodged to Fingal County Council Building Control Section through the BCMS system as these will be what they have to built to.

prosaic wrote: »

This kind of off "plans" contract should have better legal protection than appears to exist at present.

I agree, a construction pack should be mandatory when buying from plans.

kev22185

prosaic wrote: »

Thanks for replies so far.

I have studied the plans on fingal website closely. The ref is fw14A/0066. I've also got the lovely cartoon pictures on the brochure.

I well understand that there may be quite small variations in dimensions, e.g. 5 or 10mm for example but it should be possible to say that the house will be built to a specification within a certain tolerance or error. This is the basis of contract between architect/builder and client. If it works for these people, it should work for anyone. It could be also subject to reasonable adjustments due to changes in building regs.

I presume they have have already supplied the builder with drawings that will be used to construct the specific house. My worry would be that they could change their minds in 5 months time, before construction commences, and give updated plans to builder for a house of different dimensions.

I understand from a recent conversation that absolutely nothing the estate agent says, or the lovely colourful brochures show, counts for anything when it comes to the legally binding contract. If it isn't in the contract that you sign when passing over the deposit, it isn't part of the contract. The extras of tiles, appliances etc can be pulled if they wish.

I've even heard it said that in the boom times, some cases happened where the developer upped the price after contract signed. No sure if that is true though.

Am I being unrealistic and naive to expect some level of specification to be in the contract that I sign? What's to stop them building something 10 or 20 sqm smaller than they previously suggest?

To answer question of insanity, that is a matter I will consider further. But, if you want to buy a house in a new development, you have to swing with the state of the market. If things are moving well, the developer has the upper hand. There will be another guy to step in when you walk away.

This kind of off "plans" contract should have better legal protection than appears to exist at present.

FYI for the OP. That reference you've quoted appears to be for Diswellstown Manor and not Hamilton. I say this because:

a) there's no apartments planned for hamilton; and
b) there's no 5 beds planned either.

I haven't been able to find a planning permission application for Hamilton myself. To your original question and concerns, I've purchased a hamilton house off plans and was afforded access to the house before signing the contract. I got measure out all rooms myself. I'd have been reluctant to sign any contract with the basic information provided in the brochure as it's quite normal for houses to differ to the show houses for a number of reasons (as explained in previous posts)

Gumbo

kev22185 wrote: »

FYI for the OP. That reference you've quoted appears to be for Diswellstown Manor and not Hamilton. I say this because:

a) there's no apartments planned for hamilton; and
b) there's no 5 beds planned either.

I haven't been able to find a planning permission application for Hamilton myself. To your original question and concerns, I've purchased a hamilton house off plans and was afforded access to the house before signing the contract. I got measure out all rooms myself. I'd have been reluctant to sign any contract with the basic information provided in the brochure as it's quite normal for houses to differ to the show houses for a number of reasons (as explained in previous posts)

3 Commencement Notices lodged for the posted Planning Application :

1. September 2015

The development consists of 171 no. houses and 54 no. apartments, to be provided as follows: 62 no. 3 bed semi-detached houses (34 no. Type Band 28 no. Type C- 2 storey), 2 no. 3 bed detached houses (Type C1 - 2 Storey), 82 no. 4 bed semi-detached houses (37 no. Type D, 1 no. Type D2, 42 no. Type E1 and 2 no. Type E2- 2 storey), 11 no. 4 bed detached houses (2 no. Type D1, 5 no. Type E3 and 4 no. Type F- 2 storey), 12 no. 5 bed semi-detached houses (11 no. Type G1 and 1 no. Type G2- 3 storey), 2 no. 5 bed detached houses (1 no. Type G3 and 1 no. Type G4- 3 storey), An apartment block (6A) containing 22 no. 2 bed apartments (3 and 4 storey), An apartment block (6B) containing 8 no. 1 bed and 24 no. 2 bed apartments (4 storey). This notice is for 72 units.

2. May 2015

The development consists of 171 no. houses and 54 no. apartments, to be provided as follows: 62 no. 3 bed semi-detached houses (34 no. Type Band 28 no. Type C- 2 storey), 2 no. 3 bed detached houses (Type C1 - 2 Storey), 82 no. 4 bed semi-detached houses (37 no. Type D, 1 no. Type D2, 42 no. Type E1 and 2 no. Type E2- 2 storey), 11 no. 4 bed detached houses (2 no. Type D1, 5 no. Type E3 and 4 no. Type F- 2 storey), 12 no. 5 bed semi-detached houses (11 no. Type G1 and 1 no. Type G2- 3 storey), 2 no. 5 bed detached houses (1 no. Type G3 and 1 no. Type G4- 3 storey), An apartment block (6A) containing 22 no. 2 bed apartments (3 and 4 storey), An apartment block (6B) containing 8 no. 1 bed and 24 no. 2 bed apartments (4 storey).

3. October 2014

The development consists of 171 no. houses and 54 no. apartments, to be provided as follows:
62 no. 3 bed semi-detached houses (34 no. Type Band 28 no. Type
C- 2 storey),
2 no. 3 bed detached houses (Type C1 - 2 Storey),
82 no. 4 bed semi-detached houses (37 no. Type D, 1 no. Type D2,
42 no. Type E1 and 2 no. Type E2- 2 storey),
11 no. 4 bed detached houses (2 no. Type D1, 5 no. Type E3 and 4 no. Type F- 2 storey),
12 no. 5 bed semi-detached houses (11 no. Type G1 and 1 no. Type
G2- 3 storey),
2 no. 5 bed detached houses (1 no. Type G3 and 1 no. Type G4- 3 storey),
An apartment block (6A) containing 22 no. 2 bed apartments (3 and
4 storey),
An apartment block (6B) containing 8 no. 1 bed and 24 no. 2 bed apartments (4 storey).

prosaic

I see that kceire got reply in before I finished this one, but I'll post anyway as it mentions a bit on layout. I see I've added a smiley at the top (or rather my five year old did). Unintended but seems I can't delete it?

kev22185 wrote: »

FYI for the OP. That reference you've quoted appears to be for Diswellstown Manor and not Hamilton. I say this because:

a) there's no apartments planned for hamilton; and
b) there's no 5 beds planned either.

I haven't been able to find a planning permission application for Hamilton myself.

I've looked over FW14A-0066 a great deal and it is indeed the one for Hamilton Park. Phase one comprises just semi-d houses of 5, 4 and 3 bed varieties. If you look at the landscape plans doc you see the type code for each house. Then on the Plans, Elevations and Sections doc you see the plans for each house type. 5 beds are type G1 and G2. They are over nearest the motorway on Diswellstown way. On the brochure, they are just greyed out and not described. There are apartment blocks there too. Two apt blocks are in phase one and a couple more are in phase 2.

Obviously, they're not mentioning in the brochure some of what is planned.

kev22185

prosaic wrote: »

I see that kceire got reply in before I finished this one, but I'll post anyway as it mentions a bit on layout. I see I've added a smiley at the top (or rather my five year old did). Unintended but seems I can't delete it?



I've looked over FW14A-0066 a great deal and it is indeed the one for Hamilton Park. Phase one comprises just semi-d houses of 5, 4 and 3 bed varieties. If you look at the landscape plans doc you see the type code for each house. Then on the Plans, Elevations and Sections doc you see the plans for each house type. 5 beds are type G1 and G2. They are over nearest the motorway on Diswellstown way. On the brochure, they are just greyed out and not described. There are apartment blocks there too. Two apt blocks are in phase one and a couple more are in phase 2.

Obviously, they're not mentioning in the brochure some of what is planned.

This is all a bit confusing. I've had discussions with the estate agent when we paid the booking deposit and she said there was no plans to build apartments. Regardless - http://documents.fingalcoco.ie/NorthgatePublicDocs/00467929.pdf that may be of interest to you. The ask about money site has a thread on Hamilton and Diswellstown Manor. Someone posted FW14A/0044 over there.

seamus

prosaic wrote: »

Am I being unrealistic and naive to expect some level of specification to be in the contract that I sign? What's to stop them building something 10 or 20 sqm smaller than they previously suggest?

Well, exactly. As others have said they can't just randomly decide to deviate from the approved plans, but if you've agreed to buy "House Type A", and they get an approved planning application to change the layout/size of "House Type A", then you could be stuck with that.

When you do get yourself a solicitor, I would suggest you sit down with them for some kind of pre-consultation to discuss what you're being told by the agent, so the solicitor can help you guide the discussion.

The signed contracts should at the very least include full drawings for the buildings along with any accepted deviations, as well as the power for you to withdraw without penalty or amend the agreed price for any changes outside of this.

A former colleague managed to escape negative equity on that basis. Signed contracts, put down €40k on an apartment in mid-2008. Arse started properly falling out of everything, apartment got finished and the builder came along looking for his €350k for a two-bed apartment. So he went down to the finished apartment with a surveyor and an architect and found it was 5 sq.m. smaller than the plans, so got his solicitor to rip up the contracts and get the deposit back.

Other things to look out for are;

- Taking in charge - is maintenance going to be taken over by the council, or will there be a management company set up and management fees payable. Yes, even with a house.

- Locations/Districts - Builders will always market the location of a development with the best name they can find, when in fact it may not be there at all. Find out exactly what townland/postal district the development is in. That will be your address, not the one on the brochure. Looking at that one - the marketing says it's Castleknock, but An Post put it firmly in Carpenterstown.

- Local development plans for the area. Are you going to slap bang in the middle of other estates being built for the forseeable future?

prosaic

@Seamus, thanks for the good advice re solicitor.

On the point of what it will be called, the development name "Hamilton" is just a marketing gimmick and will be dropped. No name for the area, just a group of roads with names like Diswellstown Heath/Meadow/Moore/Slough/Whatever. It is Diswellstown in the civil parish of Castleknock. Townlands and parishes in the area are higgledy piggledy and pretty meaningless. It's next door to Carpenterstown. Castleknock civil parish also includes Blanchardstown and parts of west Finglas as well as the western half of Aras an Uachtarain.

It will be taken in charge. It's one of the last green field developments possible in the area which is already miles upon miles of estates. I'm very familiar with the area over many years. I should look over the development plans again though.

rohansingla

Hi - I am looking to buy a new house myself and am currently considering between Hamilton Park and Royal Canal Park. Both from what I understand are managed by same agent and both don't have area plan for rooms.

It might be a bit off topic, I was wondering if anyone of you here would have any idea or if anyone has compared the two options while looking to buy a house? RCP has considerably risen in price in the past 2-3 months, not sure if it is really worth 370-380k.

cronos

rohansingla wrote: »

Hi - I am looking to buy a new house myself and am currently considering between Hamilton Park and Royal Canal Park. Both from what I understand are managed by same agent and both don't have area plan for rooms.

It might be a bit off topic, I was wondering if anyone of you here would have any idea or if anyone has compared the two options while looking to buy a house? RCP has considerably risen in price in the past 2-3 months, not sure if it is really worth 370-380k.

Curious what you decided?

RaulDublin

Any one knows about the next phase at Hamilton park ? I'm interested in the 4 bed Osborne style and wanted to know how much did the go for in the last phase.