Garage won't give me the original certificate of destruction of my old car

mille100piedi

I bought a second hand car at a garage and I left my old car there since they told me that they can destroy the car. I took off the registration plate from my old car because I need to bring it back to my country (the car didn't have a Irish registration plate). The man at the garage was complaining because I was removing the plate and he clearly told me that he wanted to try to sell the car (he didn't offer me any money for my old car). I explain he can't sell it because it is not an Irish car and I should register the car in Ireland and then I could sell it, but I prefer to buy another one. I asked him to send me the certificate of destruction and he agrees but he send me a copy and I need the original one. I asked him but he said the he sent me the original which is not true. In the document I don't see the facility where my car has been destroyed and I am wondering if this is a valid document or not?What I should do to get the original certificate of destruction?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Did you not sign over your old car to the garage at the trade in stage?

mille100piedi

Caiden Brief Puppy wrote: »

Did you not sign over your old car to the garage at the trade in stage?

yes I did sign it , but he didn't buy my old car. He couldn't buy it because it is not an Irish car. If I don't bring the original certificate of destruction back to my country I will have to go to court. If I don't have the original certificate they can claim I sold the car or parts of it

davo10

mille100piedi wrote: »

yes I did sign it , but he didn't buy my old car. He couldn't buy it because it is not an Irish car. If I don't bring the original certificate of destruction back to my country I will have to go to court. If I don't have the original certificate they can claim I sold the car or parts of it

But if you signed over the car, ownership transferred to the garage. It is now up to them what they do with it.

percy212

If you are really concerned, send a copy of what he gave you to Shannon, with a letter explaining you are no longer the owner of the car.

davo10

percy212 wrote: »

If you are really concerned, send a copy of what he gave you to Shannon, with a letter explaining you are no longer the owner of the car.

Why? If the car was that good, one can only presume the op wouldn't have given it away. The garage will probably use it for spares and then scrap it. Once the op transfers ownership, it really isn't any of his/her concern what happens to it afterwards.

percy212

Because he is worried and it would put his mind at ease, and he asked for advice.

Why do you care that he would write a letter?

mille100piedi

davo10 wrote: »

Why? If the car was that good, one can only presume the op wouldn't have given it away. The garage will probably use it for spares and then scrap it. Once the op transfers ownership, it really isn't any of his/her concern what happens to it afterwards.

The car was good and I would it sell it myself if it was so easy, I wouldn't gave it away for free. In order to sell it I should have informed the motor office in my country (so they can delete the car from their record and I will not be called for the National car service testing and I will not pay taxes anymore)and then register it in Ireland.
Maybe he sold my car or part of it and I still have to pay taxes back to my country and to be fined because I don't bring my car for the service.

mille100piedi

percy212 wrote: »

If you are really concerned, send a copy of what he gave you to Shannon, with a letter explaining you are no longer the owner of the car.

I don't know which office is in Shannon, but I have to explain to the office back to my country that my car has been scrapped and I am not sure this is the case.
Also here in Ireland is an offence:

It should be noted that it is an offence for either the registered owner (or an authorised treatment facility) to fail to comply with the law on the disposal of end-of-life vehicles. In particular, it is an offence not to obey the rules concerning vehicle certificates of destruction or not to deposit at an authorised treatment facility a vehicle that is intended to be discarded as waste.
Penalties for offences set out under the Waste Management Acts apply. On summary conviction a fine of up to €3,000 and/or 12 months can be imposed. For conviction on indictment a fine of up to €15,000 and/or 10 years imprisonment is available to the court.
Dublin City Council as the Enforcement Authority of the afore-mentioned Legislation can and will pursue all offenders who fail to comply in full with the Regulations

davo10

Yes cars must be scraped legally and correctly, you can't just set it alight in a field. But the scrapping of the car is no longer your concern as you signed over ownership to another party. It is up to them now to comply with the law relating to disposal.

Oryx

Apart from the copy of the cert of disposal, what other paperwork did you get from the garage when they took your car? Sounds like you left it for destruction with an unauthorised person, so you have no guarantee they destroyed it at all.


This site may help you with contact info where you can check if the copy document you have is genuine or not, and if an original can be supplied.

mille100piedi

davo10 wrote: »

Yes cars must be scraped legally and correctly, you can't just set it alight in a field. But the scrapping of the car is no longer your concern as you signed over ownership to another party. It is up to them now to comply with the law relating to disposal.

The scrapping of the car is still my concern because I have to bring proof to my country that the car has been scrapped. The Irish scrapping companies do not communicated to the rest of the world the foreign cars that have been scrapped here in Ireland and neither the garage does this and this is the reason why I need a valid document to proof that my car is not in the road anymore.

mille100piedi

Oryx wrote: »

Apart from the copy of the cert of disposal, what other paperwork did you get from the garage when they took your car? Sounds like you left it for destruction with an unauthorised person, so you have no guarantee they destroyed it at all.


This site may help you with contact info where you can check if the copy document you have is genuine or not, and if an original can be supplied.

thanks, I received also a document of the purchase of the car. But I don't need to bring back to my country this document.
I contacted the waste regulation office and they are checking if the copy of the certificate of disposal is valid

slimjimmc

mille100piedi wrote: »

I explain he can't sell it because it is not an Irish car

mille100piedi wrote: »

He couldn't buy it because it is not an Irish car.

Why not? If he is a motor dealer he can buy and sell foreign registered cars if he is authorised by Revenue.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/authorisation-motor-traders-section-136-finance-act-1992.html

mille100piedi

slimjimmc wrote: »

Why not? If he is a motor dealer he can buy and sell foreign registered cars if he is authorised by Revenue.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/authorisation-motor-traders-section-136-finance-act-1992.html

I could have sold my foreign car as well, but there are procedures that have to be follow. It is obvious that the same car can't be registered in two different countries.
In order for me to sell my foreign car in Ireland I have first unregistered the car in my country and then I can sell it here.
Otherwise you will see cars driving around with two registration numbers plates

Oryx

What does it take to get a cert of permanent export in your own country?

mille100piedi

Oryx wrote: »

What does it take to get a cert of permanent export in your own country?

I didn't want to export my car to Ireland. It was too old and insurance are more expensive for left hand drive cars.
I just wanted to buy another car and I don't understand why I am having so many problems to obtain the certificate of destruction.

slimjimmc

mille100piedi wrote: »

I didn't want to export my car to Ireland. It was too old and insurance are more expensive for left hand drive cars.
I just wanted to buy another car and I don't understand why I am having so many problems to obtain the certificate of destruction.

Because you didn't bring the car to an Authorised Treatment Facility. It seems that you transferred ownership to a garage who can now do what they like with it. If there is any dispute over legal ownership all the garage has to say is that they took it in part payment for the other car.

mille100piedi

slimjimmc wrote: »

Because you didn't bring the car to an Authorised Treatment Facility. It seems that you transferred ownership to a garage who can now do what they like with it. If there is any dispute over legal ownership all the garage has to say is that they took it in part payment for the other car.

He said that it was authorised to scrap the car and I trusted him. He sent me a copy of a certificate of destruction, if is lying and the certificate is false we are going to find out this and he will not able to do what he likes at that point.
If he wanted to sell the car why would he send me a copy of the certificate of destruction?I don't see a reason

slimjimmc

mille100piedi wrote: »

He said that it was authorised to scrap the car and I trusted him. He sent me a copy of a certificate of destruction, if is lying and the certificate is false we are going to find out this and he will not able to do what he likes at that point.
If he wanted to sell the car why would he send me a copy of the certificate of destruction?I don't see a reason

I'm not sure if what you wrote is what you meant but the phrase "He said that it was authorised to scrap the car" has completely different meaning to "He said that he was authorised to scrap the car".

The following website has a PDF file showing all the ATFs, you can check if your guy is listed.
http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Waste/ProducerResponsibilityObligations/EndOfLifeVehicles/

mille100piedi

slimjimmc wrote: »

I'm not sure if what you wrote is what you meant but the phrase "He said that it was authorised to scrap the car" has completely different meaning to "He said that he was authorised to scrap the car".

The following website has a PDF file showing all the ATFs, you can check if your guy is listed.
http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Waste/ProducerResponsibilityObligations/EndOfLifeVehicles/

I meant He said he was authorised to scrap the car, it is a big garage so I would be surprised if it is not authorised.
Anyway I wrote to environ and they are checking the matter for me, I hope everything will be fine!

slimjimmc

mille100piedi wrote: »

I meant He said he was authorised to scrap the car, it is a big garage so I would be surprised if it is not authorised.
Anyway I wrote to environ and they are checking the matter for me, I hope everything will be fine!

It's possible he's an ATF but it's not common for dealers to be such, they generally don't have the facilities and systems required by law. Fingers crossed it'll all be sorted soon.

davo10

Op, why do you have to show that the car was scraped? Do you recieve a payment when you present this documentation?

For the record, once you sell your car to someone else, what they do with it is up to them. If the garage wants to use it for spares then they do not have to tax or insure it, they just scavage what they need and scrap the rest. That is no business of yours now.

If there is some kind of scrappage scheme payment and you want to avail of it, then you should not have allowed someone else to take ownership of it, you should have had it scraped yourself by a registered yard..

The car now belongs to someone else and they can do what they like with it as long as they don't drive it. The car being scraped was not yours, it was theirs and you have a purchase document which confirms that.

slimjimmc

This is more appropriate in the Motors forum

mille100piedi

davo10 wrote: »

Op, why do you have to show that the car was scraped? Do you recieve a payment when you present this documentation?

For the record, once you sell your car to someone else, what they do with it is up to them. If the garage wants to use it for spares then they do not have to tax or insure it, they just scavage what they need and scrap the rest. That is no business of yours now.

If there is some kind of scrappage scheme payment and you want to avail of it, then you should not have allowed someone else to take ownership of it, you should have had it scraped yourself by a registered yard..

The car now belongs to someone else and they can do what they like with it as long as they don't drive it. The car being scraped was not yours, it was theirs and you have a purchase document which confirms that.

what about Ireland? if you are scrapping/selling your Irish car in Cambodia how do you explain to the motor tax office that you don't need to pay the tax for your car because the car is located somewhere in Cambodia?Do you just write a letter to them explain this and everything is fine and you don't need to pay any taxes because they will delete the car on their record?can you confirm that is really that easy?and I had several friends that bought cars in garage and they left their old foreign car there, the garage gave them the certification of destruction with no problem

Stheno

Did you hand over any documentation with the car to him such as the logbook?

mille100piedi

Stheno wrote: »

Did you hand over any documentation with the car to him such as the logbook?

no, I have still the logbook and I need to bring this document along with the cert of destruction back to the office in my country in order to deregister the car and don't pay any further taxes

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

robtri

mille100piedi wrote: »

no, I have still the logbook and I need to bring this document along with the cert of destruction back to the office in my country in order to deregister the car and don't pay any further taxes

just sign the car over to the dealer and sent the registration form to your country's offices... just liek selling the car anywhere, your country's motor office will then stop chasing you as they will see you no longer own it...
what the dealer does with it then is his problem

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

robtri

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

wasn't aware of that...

OP... what country is the car registered in

mille100piedi

robtri wrote: »

wasn't aware of that...

OP... what country is the car registered in

yes, selling a car it is complicated and I wanted to avoid this and just get rid of my old car. I was thinking that was very simple also because some friend of mine did the same and everything went smooth. The old car was registered in Italy

JackHeuston

OP, I'm from Italy and I currently exported my Italian registered car to Ireland. It's currently registered in both countries and I'm about to cancel it from the Italian register.

You DON'T need to show to Italy that your car has been scrapped. You said you took off your licence plates. You simply need to go to the Italian Consulate with the plates, the receipt of payment to the motor register, and the certificate of ownership for the car and they'll cancel the registration.

You don't need to destroy a car to cancel it from Italy.

JackHeuston

More infos:
http://www.aci.it/i-servizi/guide-utili/guida-pratiche-auto/esportazione.html

You exported your car in the first place: you simply need to tell them that the car has been permanently exported, even if you didn't registered it in Ireland after the export. About this last point, I'm not sure how the garage you sold the car to has dealt with the whole matter of buying it / scrapping it / selling it, but it's not your business anymore.

If you haven't registered the car in Ireland, you need to bring them the Italian licence plates, the certificate of ownership (you use it to file the cancellation, there's a form in the back of the paper) and the Italian vehicle registration certificate (libretto di circolazione).

I've received some conflicting information from the Consulate and from the ACI. The Consulate also assumed I had the Irish vehicle registration certificate and asked for it to make a copy, while in that website it says you still can cancel the Italian registration without the foreign registration certificate if you have the items I just listed.

You can try this way. Or you can try get the receipt for the car disposal, but I'm wondering if Italy would be okay with seeing an Italian car disposed in a foreign country without completing the export procedure first.

I'd say you should have checked better with the garage, as it sounds it's like the guy tried to make the best out of your car, thinking of selling it etc... Anyway, have you tried using that copy? They won't accept it?

Another question, how did you deal with this garage? Did you sell the car to them? Did you give it to them with precise instruction to dispose of it, because you thought that was the only way to dispose of the car? The guy wanting to sell your car with the Italian registration still on makes me think he understood you were selling it. Sorry if I didn't read the whole thread but I wanted to give you these infos as I exported my car from Italy (but then registered it in Ireland).

mille100piedi

JackHeuston wrote: »

More infos:
http://www.aci.it/i-servizi/guide-utili/guida-pratiche-auto/esportazione.html

You exported your car in the first place: you simply need to tell them that the car has been permanently exported, even if you didn't registered it in Ireland after the export. About this last point, I'm not sure how the garage you sold the car to has dealt with the whole matter of buying it / scrapping it / selling it, but it's not your business anymore.

If you haven't registered the car in Ireland, you need to bring them the Italian licence plates, the certificate of ownership (you use it to file the cancellation, there's a form in the back of the paper) and the Italian vehicle registration certificate (libretto di circolazione).

I've received some conflicting information from the Consulate and from the ACI. The Consulate also assumed I had the Irish vehicle registration certificate and asked for it to make a copy, while in that website it says you still can cancel the Italian registration without the foreign registration certificate if you have the items I just listed.

You can try this way. Or you can try get the receipt for the car disposal, but I'm wondering if Italy would be okay with seeing an Italian car disposed in a foreign country without completing the export procedure first.

I'd say you should have checked better with the garage, as it sounds it's like the guy tried to make the best out of your car, thinking of selling it etc... Anyway, have you tried using that copy? They won't accept it?

Another question, how did you deal with this garage? Did you sell the car to them? Did you give it to them with precise instruction to dispose of it, because you thought that was the only way to dispose of the car? The guy wanting to sell your car with the Italian registration still on makes me think he understood you were selling it. Sorry if I didn't read the whole thread but I wanted to give you these infos as I exported my car from Italy (but then registered it in Ireland).

I had friends that didn't register the car in Ireland and bought another one and left the old one at the garage. The garage gave them the certificate of destruction and they just brought this document, the plates and the document of ownership of the car to the Italian office. And the issue was resolved. My car was very old and there was not point make the registration here in Ireland, I understood that they guy at the garage wanted to makes some money from my car ( I was very clear to him that the car can't be sold, he didn't give me any money for it and he said that he was not going to sell it but he lied to me) probably he didn't know the rules very well. anyway he provided me a certificate of destruction, but since it is not the original I don't know if it is valid (and the office in Italy are asking me the original since I am still the owner of my old car)and at the moment they are investigated this for me. If you scrap your Italian car here, I don't think you have to register it first, what's happen if you have an accident and the car is broken and you can't use it anymore, I am sure you can scrap it here and get a certificate of disposal. The only problem I have is that the seller at the garage has been dishonest to me

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

percy212

Bring the document the garage gave you to the consulate with your plates etc. Tell them that's all you have. Let them know the car was not working properly etc. Let them call the garage to confirm the sale/disposal.

JackHeuston

mille100piedi wrote: »

The only problem I have is that the seller at the garage has been dishonest to me

If they won't accept the copy I think you're in the hands of this person, since you as the car owner must receive the certificate of destruction. Is this garage authorised to dispose of cars? Because if it's not, they probably did your friend a favour while with your car they saw an opportunity for some money or who knows what.

You didn't pay anything for the disposal, right?

You can still try insisting with the Italian office that you can't in any way get better documentation than the one you have.

And last question, what does make you think that's not the original document? Is it in paper? Or did they emailed it to you?

mille100piedi

percy212 wrote: »

Bring the document the garage gave you to the consulate with your plates etc. Tell them that's all you have. Let them know the car was not working properly etc. Let them call the garage to confirm the sale/disposal.

The waste regulation office is investigating the issue for me and they will confirm if the car has been properly disposed by the garage

mille100piedi

JackHeuston wrote: »

If they won't accept the copy I think you're in the hands of this person, since you as the car owner must receive the certificate of destruction. Is this garage authorised to dispose of cars? Because if it's not, they probably did your friend a favour while with your car they saw an opportunity for some money or who knows what.

You didn't pay anything for the disposal, right?

You can still try insisting with the Italian office that you can't in any way get better documentation than the one you have.

And last question, what does make you think that's not the original document? Is it in paper? Or did they emailed it to you?

My friends bough their car in a different garage. I don't trust the person that sold me the car he didn't want me to remove the plates from my car and then he didn't want me to give me the certificate, then he gave me a copy and when I asked the original he said that he can't help me. Then I asked where my car has been disposed so I can go directly there and ask for a duplicate of the original. again no help. I told him that I am going to hire a solicitor to resolve the matter and then he told me that he will arrange to issue another certificate with another number (different from the one that is written in the copy he previously sent me) and Friday will be ready. I honestly I don't understand what is all this mess about. I know he was thinking he could make some money from my old car but then he realized that it is not possible and now I don't know if my car has been disposed. The waste regulation office is checking if the certificate he gave me is valid.
The certificate he sent me is a photocopy and there is my signature. (I was not the one that sign the form...he signed the form with my signature!) I think is a cowboy. lol
no I didn't pay for the disposal, I am not sure you have to pay for this

scrap_man

On the certificate of destruction the second section has the name and address and waste facility number of the scrap yard that scrapped it. give them a ring and they can send you another copy of the cert

scrap_man

Just read your last post there, and yes he is having you on.
for a start most scrapyards wouldn't take a car without a logbook or number plates and secondly how could they issue a cert of destruction without knowing the registration number of the car?
Also if the cert he gave you was a legitimate one, then there would have been a copy sent to the department of transport in Shannon, so they cant just issue a new one with a new number on it. i'll try an upload a picture of a proper cert of destruction later so you can see if its the same.
it sounds like they just printed off something themselves to keep you quiet

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

snaps

I'm having a similar problem with a car that was written off in uk. My car was Polish registered and in poland similar to Italy it needs to be deregistered off the system to avoid being insured (all cars in Poland have to have insurance on them).

I took my plates off my car, and have been trying to get the original destruction cert too, all I've been able to get is a dodfy fax copy.

I'm about to contact dvla about this now, or failing that, try and transfer ownership to the recovery garage!

slimjimmc

mille100piedi wrote: »

no I didn't pay for the disposal, I am not sure you have to pay for this

No, an Authorised Treatment Facility must accept the car for free if the car still contains the main (valuable) components e.g. engine and gearbox. I think that's the same rule across the EU. However if you hire someone to deliver the car to the ATF then that person can charge you for the delivery service.

JackHeuston

How did it end OP?

mille100piedi

JackHeuston wrote: »

How did it end OP?

the treatment facility issued another certificate of destruction with the same code number and I took it to the office in Italy and since it was the original document they accepted it