Fog in London

adam88

With all the advances in technology I was almost certain that aircraft were able to land in dense fog so what's with all the disruptions.
I know a little bit of cat category landings etc and minimums. I think certain runways might have a minimum height of say 100 m where if you can't see the runway you abort.

Is it that bad over there

cml387

Most modern jets can land in fog but the rate of landings needs to be reduced (remember the computer can land the plane blind but the pilots still have to find their way back to the terminal).
Since Heathrow is at capacity already in good weather, foggy weather leads to disruptions and cancellations.

arubex

The landing separation also has to be increased due to preceding aircraft interfering with and scattering the ILS signal whilst they are on approach. Not so much of a problem when doing Cat I clear-weather approaches but critical in Cat III autolanding.

adam88

arubex wrote: »

The landing separation also has to be increased due to preceding aircraft interfering with and scattering the ILS signal whilst they are on approach. Not so much of a problem when doing Cat I clear-weather approaches but critical in Cat III autolanding.

Ya I've seen the videos of the autolands. But just how automatic is automatic

BonkeyDonker

adam88 wrote: »

Ya I've seen the videos of the autolands. But just how automatic is automatic

The aircraft can perform the landing and roll out automatically to a safe taxi speed with the pilots in a monitoring mode.

CardinalJ

In was in LCY yesterday and the day before and almost every flight was cancelled.

Couldn't get over how many people just couldn't get their heads around the potential issues with an airport surrounded by water and not visability. One guy said his taxi could get there so why could his plane not...

BeardySi

CardinalJ wrote: »

In was in LCY yesterday and the day before and almost every flight was cancelled.

Couldn't get over how many people just couldn't get their heads around the potential issues with an airport surrounded by water and not visability. One guy said his taxi could get there so why could his plane not...

Given the nature of the approaches into LCY and the obstacles around it, I'd have thought understanding the problem would have been a no-brainer. Clearly I'm giving too much credit to our species in general...

Tenger

CardinalJ wrote: »

In was in LCY yesterday and the day before and almost every flight was cancelled.
.......................One guy said his taxi could get there so why could his plane not...

Treadhead wrote: »

.............Clearly I'm giving too much credit to our species in general...

Clearly you are. People also can't get over the fact that while the weather is 'nice' in Dublin the fog is London is preventing their aircraft getting to Dublin.

Avada

I've never had to deal with so much anger from people as I did over the weekend. I don't even work for an airline!

Arthur Daley

LCY seems to suffer a lot in november to february. It must impact quite a bit on cityjets operations and business model. Having one of your hub airports closed for days at a time. I know this time all the london airports were affected but London city is very prone to fog right near the thames.

LXFlyer

Arthur Daley wrote: »

LCY seems to suffer a lot in november to february. It must impact quite a bit on cityjets operations and business model. Having one of your hub airports closed for days at a time. I know this time all the london airports were affected but London city is very prone to fog right near the thames.

LCY wasn't shut all day long yesterday - flights resumed from 11:30.

Corruptedmorals

Flew from Glasgow to Dublin on Sunday night, it was fairly delayed but landed fine. People are definitely delusional- had a delightful ranting and raving man across the aisle who kept loudly blaming Ryanair because it 'wouldn't happen on aer lingus'.

caff

Can understand peoples anger in London city, was due to flight out Sunday at 18:00, totally disorganized and their call center closed between 18:00 sun - 08:00 mon
Their website wasn't updated at all on Sunday to inform people of delays so they kept arriving.

Irish Steve

What's not often made clearer is that there are a whole raft of conditions to be met to operate in CAT 3 conditions, effectively fog.

The airport has to have approved CAT 3 approaches, and a fair number don't, for all sort of reasons, sometimes terrain related, if there are significant fluctuations in the ground levels close in, that makes it unacceptable for CAT 3 operations.

The aircraft has to be fitted and certified with CAT 3 equipment, which has to be fully operational without any defects.

The operating crew have to be trained to CAT 3 standards, AND current to operate CAT 3, which can be difficult to maintain currency.

As well as the operational requirements, there are significant increases in separation for landing traffic, and departing traffic has to be kept further from the runway that in other condition, both to avoid any possible disruption to the ILS signals.

If the airport doesn't have very modern ground movement radar, there can be massive restrictions on the number of aircraft allowed to be engines running and moving at the same time, so all in all, fog causes significant disruption to operations, especially at places like Heathrow, which are close to maximum capacity in normal weather conditions.

If the Runway is only CAT 1 or CAT 2, then it doesn't matter if everything else is CAT 3, you will not be getting in there. It IS unfortunately that simple, and attempting to ignore the limits can be fatal, as was so tragically demonstrated at Cork a while back.

In the early days of Autoland, first introduced with the Trident, Heathrow was additionally equipped with a wire guidance system that allowed the aircraft to also use the on board systems to follow the route to and from the stand, but as far as I am aware, that system was not developed further, and went out of use, the system now relies on the high intensity lights that can be switched block by block to provide guidance to the right stand. The landing however is fully automatic, the crew are VERY attentive observers of the process, their main task at touchdown being to ensure that they are between the lights,

Growler!!!

Not every operator has the luxury of an auto land facility. Some of us still land manually in Cat2 conditions:D

smurfjed

Some of us still land manually in Cat2 conditions

Now that must be fun

Paully D

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Flew from Glasgow to Dublin on Sunday night, it was fairly delayed but landed fine. People are definitely delusional- had a delightful ranting and raving man across the aisle who kept loudly blaming Ryanair because it 'wouldn't happen on aer lingus'.

He certainly wasn't stuck in LGW all day and night on Monday with me and many others after Aer Lingus cancelled an afternoon flight while no Ryanair was pulled that day on the same route!

The cancellation can't be helped in fairness so that's not my reason for saying this - but the reputation Aer Lingus have over Ryanair really annoys me and is in many cases completely unjustified.

Tenger

Paully D wrote: »

He certainly wasn't stuck in LGW all day and night on Monday with me and many others after Aer Lingus cancelled an afternoon flight .............................................but the reputation Aer Lingus have over Ryanair really annoys me and is in many cases completely unjustified.

I would agree. Nowadays EI will abandon you as quick as anyone else.

It cuts both ways, and among all airlines. In an area of business the customer is often quick to point to the opposition.

*EI did manage to send a 260 seater A332 to LHR (not LGW) on day 3 of the fog....shame it wasn't avail on day 2.

PinOnTheRight

Tenger wrote: »

I would agree. Nowadays EI will abandon you as quick as anyone else.

It cuts both ways, and among all airlines. In an area of business the customer is often quick to point to the opposition.

*EI did manage to send a 260 seater A332 to LHR (not LGW) on day 3 of the fog....shame it wasn't avail on day 2.

I can't remember when it started but -DAA operated to LHR on 2nd and 3rd November. Is that day 2 and 3 or day 3 and 4 of the fog fiasco?