Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Remembrance Day sermon

  • 31-10-2015 7:53pm
    #1
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭


    I'm taking my first Remembrance Sunday service next week and I'm very nervous about how to tackle the sermon. I don't want to offend anyone, especially the few ex-defence force people, but my own take on the whole thing is about remembering the dead while not glorifying war.

    I was thinking of talking about the refugee crisis at the moment, with people fleeing the horrors of war, and talking about my own (indirect) connection with refugees as my German mother in law was, at five years old, a refugee from Poland. I want to humanise things, and focus on the people affected by war. But how do I do that without demonising the soldiers?

    Any thoughts or suggestions? Only a week to go!


Comments

  • #2
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Well, historically religion and the military have been intertwined as both have a commonality in promoting community. The former’s hierarchy nature is reflected in the Biblical example of the old Centurion who has men under authority []Matt?]. Hence perhaps it might be worth working that into how many modern soldiers are thus part of peacekeeping duties: that they have been placed in harm’s way in distance countries to act as a societal glue to bring back peace which had been racked by strife?

    Best of luck


  • #3
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Manach wrote: »
    Well, historically religion and the military have been intertwined as both have a commonality in promoting community. The former’s hierarchy nature is reflected in the Biblical example of the old Centurion who has men under authority []Matt?]. Hence perhaps it might be worth working that into how many modern soldiers are thus part of peacekeeping duties: that they have been placed in harm’s way in distance countries to act as a societal glue to bring back peace which had been racked by strife?

    Best of luck

    Oh, that's a good idea. Some of the attendees would have served in the Congo and other peace keeping situations, so that might be a good angle.

    Thanks


  • #4
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    I will often pause to remember those who suffered, lost their lives and sacrificed in wars (my grandfather fought in the trenches in WWI and my father served in Palestine when it was a UN mandate).

    However, I will often use a piece of anti-war poetry to stress the fundamental futility of war.

    I particularly like Wilfred Owen's poignant words:
    The Parable of the Young Man and the Old

    So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
    And took the fire with him, and a knife.
    And as they sojourned, both of them together,
    Isaac the first-born spake, and said, My Father,
    Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
    But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
    Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
    And builded parapets the trenches there,
    And stretched forth the knife to slay his son.
    When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
    Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
    Neither do anything to him. Behold,
    A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
    Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
    But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
    And half the seed of Europe, one by one.


  • #5
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Nick Park wrote: »
    I will often pause to remember those who suffered, lost their lives and sacrificed in wars (my grandfather fought in the trenches in WWI and my father served in Palestine when it was a UN mandate).

    However, I will often use a piece of anti-war poetry to stress the fundamental futility of war.

    I particularly like Wilfred Owen's poignant words:
    That's beautiful.


  • #6
    cattolico
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭cattolico


    I hope someday we will remember the 10's of thousands of Irish men who died in WW1. I would love if you posted your sermon. My great grand uncle died on the somme. I'm sure there are thousands of families in Ireland who had someone who died. Its a great pity we have forgotten these souls.


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    cattolico wrote: »
    I hope someday we will remember the 10's of thousands of Irish men who died in WW1. I would love if you posted your sermon. My great grand uncle died on the somme. I'm sure there are thousands of families in Ireland who had someone who died. Its a great pity we have forgotten these souls.

    I like to think we do remember them. In various ways.

    It's important to remember, though, that Remembrance day is about all those who died in all conflicts. It started after WW1, but any act of remembering has to encompass all of them.

    I'll think about posting what I put together. Depends on whether it's any good! :-)


  • #8
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    katydid wrote: »
    I'm taking my first Remembrance Sunday service next week and I'm very nervous about how to tackle the sermon. I don't want to offend anyone, especially the few ex-defence force people, but my own take on the whole thing is about remembering the dead while not glorifying war.

    I was thinking of talking about the refugee crisis at the moment, with people fleeing the horrors of war, and talking about my own (indirect) connection with refugees as my German mother in law was, at five years old, a refugee from Poland. I want to humanise things, and focus on the people affected by war. But how do I do that without demonising the soldiers?

    Any thoughts or suggestions? Only a week to go!

    You are definately on the right track there with the freugee crisis, you may also talk about the poppy fields in Flanders? Use the image of each poppy as a life lost in war. Feel free to expand the definition of the symbolism of the poppy, many Clergy nowadays remember all lives lost in all wars . . . .

    (That way everybody is included according to personal circumstances).

    Personally I will remember my grandad who died in the Great War, I will also remember several uncles who died in WWII, there are other family members on my wifes side of the family who were affected by war too. I would also remember the German losses too from both wars, this year I will think of and remember the Syrian losses too (such is the scale).

    So Remembrance can be expanded to remember death & loss in whatever for it takes. The poppy signifying individual loss, while also conveying the image of great loss, as in fields full of thousands of poppies, each one a human life lost in war.

    Keep it sombre and thought provoking too (the futility of war) and the great pain at the loss of human life.

    Hope this helps.


  • #9
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    LordSutch wrote: »
    You are definately on the right track there with the freugee crisis, you may also talk about the poppy fields in Flanders? Use the image of each poppy as a life lost in war. Feel free to expand the definition of the symbolism of the poppy, many Clergy nowadays remember all lives lost in all wars . . . .

    (That way everybody is included according to personal circumstances).

    Personally I will remember my grandad who died in the Great War, I will also remember several uncles who died in WWII, there are other family members on my wifes side of the family who were affected by war too. I would also remember the German losses too from both wars, this year I will think of and remember the Syrian losses too (such is the scale).

    So Remembrance can be expanded to remember death & loss in whatever for it takes. The poppy signifying individual loss, while also conveying the image of great loss, as in fields full of thousands of poppies, each one a human life lost in war.

    Keep it sombre and thought provoking too (the futility of war) and the great pain at the loss of human life.

    Hope this helps.
    It does, thanks. I have heard so many excellent addresses at these services, it's rather daunting to be at the other end. You can't really avoid the poppy symbolism, I guess, and I love the idea of each one representing a life lost. Important too, though, I think, is to move beyond the symbolism originating from WW1 and to be inclusive of all those who have died serving in all conflicts.


  • #10
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Does the Anglican Church know you're also on public forums diabolically preaching and accusing that Jesus Christ is a sinner and has committed sins, despite the doctrine of the Anglican Church and all other mainstream Christian denominations that Jesus is sinless ?


  • #11
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    Does the Anglican Church know you're also on public forums diabolically preaching and accusing that Jesus Christ is a sinner and has committed sins, despite the doctrine of the Anglican Church and all other mainstream Christian denominations that Jesus is sinless ?
    You're wasting your time posting to me; I have no time for people who hang around forums accusing people of dishonesty.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Did you or did you not accuse Christ of being a sinner and committing sins ?
    You then refused to answer what sins, and claimed you had. The proof is on this forum for everyone to read. You also denied that accusing Christ of being a sinner s against Anglican doctrine. I don't think I've ever heard a person claiming to be a Christian make such a literally diabolical claim about Christ.

    So, specifically, what sins did Jesus commit ?


  • #13
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Tricky one. It will involve a certain amount of the old "mental gymnastics".
    War is considered bad, but taking part in one should not be criticised at this event.

    Don't mention the refugees either. Or collateral damage in general.
    Focus on noble things like patriotism and sacrifice. But not British patriotism or futile sacrifice. Which makes the poppy symbol kind of awkward.

    Don't mention glory, the spirit of adventure, or the warrior creed because they are all contrary to Christian teaching. Concentrate on the undeniable fact that soldiers who die in battle never grow old, and treat that as a virtue to celebrate.


  • #14
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    :pac:
    recedite wrote: »
    Tricky one. It will involve a certain amount of the old "mental gymnastics".
    War is considered bad, but taking part in one should not be criticised at this event.

    Don't mention the refugees either. Or collateral damage in general.
    Focus on noble things like patriotism and sacrifice. But not British patriotism or futile sacrifice. Which makes the poppy symbol kind of awkward.

    Don't mention glory, the spirit of adventure, or the warrior creed because they are all contrary to Christian teaching. Concentrate on the undeniable fact that soldiers who die in battle never grow old, and treat that as a virtue to celebrate.
    Well, there would be no reason to mention British patriotism, since we're not British. :pac:

    But I don't see a problem with the poppy - it's not a British symbol - invented by an American, inspired by a poem by a Canadian...

    I disagree that I should mention patriotism in any way; that's a can of want to worms I don't to open.

    I like your last point.

    Thanks


  • #15
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    Did you or did you not accuse Christ of being a sinner and committing sins ?
    You then refused to answer what sins, and claimed you had. The proof is on this forum for everyone to read. You also denied that accusing Christ of being a sinner s against Anglican doctrine. I don't think I've ever heard a person claiming to be a Christian make such a literally diabolical claim about Christ.

    So, specifically, what sins did Jesus commit ?

    MOD NOTE

    Please don't derail the thread with a line of questioning from another thread.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #16
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Delirium wrote: »
    MOD NOTE

    Please don't derail the thread with a line of questioning from another thread.

    Thanks for your attention.

    I'm sorry, but as an ex service person myself, it's extremely relevant to the thread that someone who purports to be preaching on behalf of the Church of Ireland at a Church of Ireland remembrance service to fellow service personnel, heretically accuses Our Lord and Saviour, Christ of sin, and denies Christian teaching. Those attending, and the sevice have every right to know. This is a very serious matter for Christians and the Church of Ireland. I find it both diabolical and deplorable.


  • #17
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but as an ex service person myself, it's extremely relevant to the thread that someone who purports to be preaching on behalf of the Church of Ireland at a Church of Ireland remembrance service to fellow service personnel, heretically accuses Our Lord and Saviour, Christ of sin, and denies Christian teaching. Those attending, and the sevice have every right to know. This is a very serious matter for Christians and the Church of Ireland. I find it both diabolical and deplorable.

    Well go on then, give us a link to the thread where this can be discussed further, or failing that, why not Start a new thread so that this thing that irks you so greatly can be aired in a dedicated thread.

    But can we please keep this thread on topic namely "Remembrance Day sermon" . . . . .

    What say you La Fenetre?


  • #18
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    How did you get on, today Katy? Not stoned as a heretic in the Porch I hope!


  • #19
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Well go on then, give us a link to the thread where this can be discussed further, or failing that, why not Start a new thread so that this thing that irks you so greatly can be aired in a dedicated thread.

    But can we please keep this thread on topic namely "Remembrance Day sermon" . . . . .

    What say you La Fenetre?

    The thread is original sin, but what's most relevant here is the service personnel and the Church of Ireland have a right to know who is representing them at their Christain remembrance service, and their accusations about Chirst.


  • #20
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    How did you get on, today Katy? Not stoned as a heretic in the Porch I hope!

    It's next week...


  • #21
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    The thread is original sin, but what's most relevant here is the service personnel and the Church of Ireland have a right to know who is representing them at their Christain remembrance service, and their accusations about Chirst.

    I have found a thread from 2009 called 'original sin' http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055672991

    ..but there doesn't seem to be anything relevant to your accusations!

    Why dont you start a new thread to air your concerns?


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I have found a thread from 2009 called 'original sin' http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055672991

    ..but there doesn't seem to be anything relevant to your accusations!

    Why dont you start a new thread to air your concerns?

    Sorry the thread is called cleansing at baptism. My very relevant concern here is that my fellow sevice personnel and the Church of Ireland are not aware that the person taking the service, purporting to represent them, preaches that Christ has committed sin, in complete contrast to Church of Ireland and Christian doctrine. Not to mention the poster in question seems to have a history of sectarian commentary on this forum. For any Christian in attendance, That's a very serious matter for the service in question, and the Church of Ireland.


  • #23
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    OK La Fenetre, here's your thread > > > > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057510550

    Can't see anything wrong there with Katy's remarks, just lots of bickering between you guys :)

    This thread was about a Remembrance Day Sermon, before . . . .


  • #24
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    LordSutch wrote: »
    OK La Fenetre, here's your thread > > > > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057510550

    Can't see anything wrong there with Katy's remarks, just lots of bickering between you guys :)

    This thread was about a Remembrance Day Sermon, before . . . .

    Still is. Take no notice.

    Do you normally go to Remembrance services?


  • #25
    La Fenetre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    LordSutch wrote: »
    OK La Fenetre, here's your thread > > > > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057510550

    Can't see anything wrong there with Katy's remarks, just lots of bickering between you guys :)

    This thread was about a Remembrance Day Sermon, before . . . .

    Have you read Nick Parks comments and the Anglican doctrine ? i find it hard to believe the Church of Ireland, or my fellow service personnel, would be happy to know the person who is leading their Christian remembrance service, accuses Christ of sinning.


  • #26
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    katydid wrote: »
    Still is. Take no notice.

    Do you normally go to Remembrance services?

    Yes indeed, always attend on Remembrance day. Its one of those Sundays in the calander, along with Harvest Sunday, Easter Sunday, Christmas Day, etc that we alway attend....


  • #27
    homer911
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭homer911


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Yes indeed, always attend on Remembrance day. Its one of those Sundays in the calander, along with Harvest Sunday, Easter Sunday, Christmas Day, etc that we alway attend....

    I wouldn't be holding that out as a virtue!

    That would probably put you in the "cultural christian" category


  • #28
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but as an ex service person myself, it's extremely relevant to the thread that someone who purports to be preaching on behalf of the Church of Ireland at a Church of Ireland remembrance service to fellow service personnel, heretically accuses Our Lord and Saviour, Christ of sin, and denies Christian teaching. Those attending, and the sevice have every right to know. This is a very serious matter for Christians and the Church of Ireland. I find it both diabolical and deplorable.
    MOD NOTE

    Please note that mod instructions are not up for discussion on-thread, this is a site-wide rule.

    The thread is a request for input and putting together a Remembrance Day sermon.

    Your post is off-topic and unhelpful.

    Do not continue the off-topic tangent in this thread.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #29
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    katydid wrote: »
    I disagree that I should mention patriotism in any way; that's a can of want to worms I don't to open.

    I think that's very wise.

    I would be happy to open that particular can of worms on any of the other 51 Sundays of a year (believing as I do that patriotism is a thoroughly unChristian concept) but Remembrance Sunday is definitely the wrong day to go there! :)


  • #30
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Nick Park wrote: »
    I think that's very wise.

    I would be happy to open that particular can of worms on any of the other 51 Sundays of a year (believing as I do that patriotism is a thoroughly unChristian concept) but Remembrance Sunday is definitely the wrong day to go there! :)

    I've been thinking a lot about that Wilfred Own poem you cited. It wasn't one of the ones of his I was familiar with, but it's very moving and very profound. I am going to build the talk around it.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    MOD NOTE

    Post deleted.

    Le Fenetre, please honor your post and refrain from posting further in this thread.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #32
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    MOD NOTE

    La Fenetre banned for one day for ignoring numerous on-thread warnings and continuing to post after receiving an infraction.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #33
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    homer911 wrote: »
    I wouldn't be holding that out as a virtue!

    That would probably put you in the "cultural christian" category

    Never heard that term used before so maybe we are?

    We go to Church at least twice every month, sometimes three times a month every month, so its not as of we only go to those services mentioned, its just that we make a special effort to be in Church on Christmas day, Easter Sunday, Harvest festival, and Remembrance Sunday.

    Are we realy cultural Christians?

    Katy, I also noticed that you thanked Homer911 referring to us as "cultural christians" Why?


  • #34
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Never heard that term used before so maybe we are? Although we also

    We go to Church at least twice every month, sometimes three times a month every month, so its not as of we only go to those services mentioned, its just that we make a special effort to be in Church on Christmas day, Easter Sunday, Harvest festival, and Remembrance Sunday.

    Are we realy cultural Christians?

    In fairness, it sounded like you ONLY went on the big occasions.


  • #35
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    katydid wrote: »
    In fairness, it sounded like you ONLY went on the big occasions.

    No, I never said that and it was never inferred. You were too quick to thank Homer.


  • #36
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    LordSutch wrote: »
    No, I never said that and it was never inferred. You were too quick to thank Homer.

    Well, you didn't say it, but I DID infer it... My apologies.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Getting back to your sermon, how is it going?


  • #38
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Getting back to your sermon, how is it going?

    I'm working on it - I'm using the poem that Nick suggested as the basis. I'll spend HOURS on something that'll take ten minutes to deliver. Oh well, it's all in a good cause.


  • #39
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    katydid wrote: »
    I'm working on it - I'm using the poem that Nick suggested as the basis. I'll spend HOURS on something that'll take ten minutes to deliver. Oh well, it's all in a good cause.

    I only came across that poem recently. I remember studying Owen's poem 'Dulce et Decorum est' at school and, for the first time in my life, realising how words could paint such a graphic picture in our minds. 40 years later, I can still remember lines from then ("Gas! Gas! Quick boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling").

    Then there is the incredibly poignant story of how Owen was killed a week before the end of the war, with his parents receiving the news at home as the armistice bells were ringing on November 11th.

    Also, we sometimes have to be careful in Remembrance Services in that stressing the horrors, or even the futility of war, does not belittle those who served bravely in such conflicts. Owen's own life is instructive in that he came to see the sheer futility and wastefulness of war, suffered shellshock, and yet returned to the trenches and showed incredible courage and won the Military Cross. He was also a committed Christian who taught Bible Study classes in the Anglican Church before joining up.

    I only came across the poem about Abraham last week, it was quoted in Melvin Bragg's history of the King James Bible - "The Book of Books." I was listening to it as an audiobook version while driving my car, and when I heard the poem I had to pull up on the hard shoulder and replay it several times.


  • #40
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    I've noticed the tendency in several Catholic churches where the commemoration of the service given by Irish military personnel - UN Peacekeepers, men who enlisted with WWII Allied forces - are commemorated at Mass in or around 11th November every year.

    I can't say that I am entirely comfortable with military banners being paraded during the Mass.

    I am aware that in the Catholic Church November is a sacred month for us to remember and pray for those souls who have passed on. But this alignment with military commemoration especially at Mass doesn't sit well with me.


  • #41
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    For once I find myself in agreement with hinault (though he will possibly never know).


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    hinault wrote: »
    I've noticed the tendency in several Catholic churches where the commemoration of the service given by Irish military personnel - UN Peacekeepers, men who enlisted with WWII Allied forces - are commemorated at Mass in or around 11th November every year.

    I can't say that I am entirely comfortable with military banners being paraded during the Mass.

    I am aware that in the Catholic Church November is a sacred month for us to remember and pray for those souls who have passed on. But this alignment with military commemoration especially at Mass doesn't sit well with me.

    In our church, the military paraphernalia is kept at the back of the church; like you, many parishioners, and the rector, were uncomfortable with the flags being paraded in the body of the church during the service. The old guys assemble in the body of the church then, at the end of the service, we all go down to the end of the church, were there is a war memorial, and they do the flags and poppy laying stuff. Part of the ceremony takes part during the service, but not the military bit.

    It's a delicate balance, but working it out is worth it.


  • #43
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Also, we sometimes have to be careful in Remembrance Services in that stressing the horrors, or even the futility of war, does not belittle those who served bravely in such conflicts. Owen's own life is instructive in that he came to see the sheer futility and wastefulness of war, suffered shellshock, and yet returned to the trenches and showed incredible courage and won the Military Cross.
    And therein lies the problem; the bravery and the futility are intertwined. It is generally accepted that such men returned to the front partly out of a sense of patriotism, but mainly because of the "band of brothers" mentality. They could not remain at home knowing their mates were in mortal danger. And of course, the Germans returned to their trenches for exactly the same reasons.
    The Quakers and the pacifists took the most reasonable stance under the circumstances, but they were vilified at the time, and nobody honours or remembers them now.

    Is there anything going on in any churches these days for the July "national commemoration" day?
    The govt. tried to switch the focus to the Sunday nearest 11th July a few years ago. Supposedly because it was the date of an armistice in the anglo-irish war of independence. But more practically, to get away from poppies and the awkward legacy of Irishmen fighting in the British army, while also coinciding with the weekend of "the twelfth" in Norn Iron.
    Its possible that some day in the future, WW1, WW2, The Twelfth, and the various UN campaigns will all be remembered together at one national event. But unlikely. July just doesn't seem right for it. Samhain has always been the right time for remembering the fallen.


  • #44
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    I sing in a MV Choir, and back in July we attended a service of commeration for deceased Irish Army members, and all Irish war casualties. It was held in the little chapel attached to an old convent, and was multi denominational. It was addressed by clergy of the three largest Christian denominations, and each told a personal story of a family member who had served and died in past conflicts. A colour party from the Army was in attendance, but the tone of the ser ice was one of fond remembrance for family members and colleagues. It was actually very moving, and the songs we performed were not the "Blood and Glory" standards, but rather popular so gs from various era's.


  • #45
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    recedite wrote: »
    Is there anything going on in any churches these days for the July "national commemoration" day?
    The govt. tried to switch the focus to the Sunday nearest 11th July a few years ago. Supposedly because it was the date of an armistice in the anglo-irish war of independence. But more practically, to get away from poppies and the awkward legacy of Irishmen fighting in the British army, while also coinciding with the weekend of "the twelfth" in Norn Iron.
    Its possible that some day in the future, WW1, WW2, The Twelfth, and the various UN campaigns will all be remembered together at one national event. But unlikely. July just doesn't seem right for it. Samhain has always been the right time for remembering the fallen.

    The 11th of July you say. Well I guess most people are on holiday then, or at the beach, or both!

    Haven't heard any mention of it in Church, or anywhere else for that matter.

    The 11th hour, of the 11th day, of the 11th month, was when the Armistice was signed.
    Hence Remembrance Sunday being in November.


  • #46
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    LordSutch wrote: »
    The 11th hour, of the 11th day, of the 11th month, was when the Armistice was signed.
    Hence Remembrance Sunday being in November.
    That is true, since WW1 that exact moment in time has been remembered, but even before that, this time of year was always associated with remembrance of the dead. All Hallows Day and halloween etc..
    In the British Isles, it is known that churches were already celebrating All Saints on 1 November at the beginning of the 8th century to coincide or replace the Celtic festival of Samhain. James Frazer suggests that 1 November was chosen because it was the date of the Celtic festival of the dead (Samhain) – the Celts had influenced their English neighbours, and English missionaries had influenced the Germans. However, Ronald Hutton points out that, according to Óengus of Tallaght (d. ca. 824), the 7th/8th century church in Ireland celebrated All Saints on 20 April. He suggests that 1 November date was a Germanic rather than a Celtic idea


  • #47
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Well, sermon finally written. I took the Gospel reading for tomorrow, the story from Mark of the Widow's Mite, which shows the importance and value of trusting in God and not in earthly authorities, who can be corrupt and uncaring of the plight of the weak and helpless (and the story of Ruth and Naomi, where Naomi puts her trust in Ruth, who cares for her welfare) and linked them to the wonderful poem about the story of Abraham and Isaac, with a nasty twist, that Nick pointed me to, which is about what happens when you ignore God - in the poem, Abraham allowed his pride to win over his love for his son. And that although society seems not to have learned from the past and seems determined to keep repeating the cycle, we as human beings, and as Christians have the duty and the power to try to influence change by refusing to accept the right of the old men to dictate to us.

    That's the rough gist...I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks all for your ideas


  • #48
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Look forward to the podcast......!


  • #49
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    katydid wrote: »
    .. the wonderful poem about the story of Abraham and Isaac, with a nasty twist, that Nick pointed me to, which is about what happens when you ignore God - in the poem, Abraham allowed his pride to win over his love for his son..
    All of which ignores the fact that it was the old man with the grey beard, God, who put Abraham up to the grisly task in the original story, just to see how close to the brink Abraham would go.
    I hope the sermon is going well. Sometimes the style of delivery of these things is more important than the content anyway.


  • #50
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    recedite wrote: »
    All of which ignores the fact that it was the old man with the grey beard, God, who put Abraham up to the grisly task in the original story, just to see how close to the brink Abraham would go.
    I hope the sermon is going well. Sometimes the style of delivery of these things is more important than the content anyway.

    True enough. If one accepts God is an old man with a grey beard. You have to hand it to the ancient Israelites, though, they told a good story.

    All went well, thanks. I had to take two services, in fact, and I think the second one went better. I was nervous the first time round. People said afterwards the sermon was thought provoking - that might have had something to do with me saying that had Abraham actually killed Isaac, we mightn't be Christians, because Jesus was descended from Abraham's line... :-)

    It was quite sad and rather moving, to be honest. In the second service, there was one old man, 89 years old, who read the Ode of Remembrance; "They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old..." and cut a lonely figure going down the aisle with his wreath of poppies. He told me all about joining up on his 18th birthday in 1944, and his adventures in Germany over tea afterwards; we forget sometimes that all this isn't just history to people like him.


  • #51
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    In our Church this morning The last post was played on the main organ with "a setting" that totally fooled me into thinking that they had actually hired a trumpeter for the morning, very convincing :)

    The sermon was given by a visiting Rector who did a great job remembering the crazyness of WWI, including the assisination of Archduke Ferdinand and his wife! He then referenced the list of names on the war memorial in our small Church, and how that one little memorial was just a microcosim of a much much bigger picture of lost lives in Ireland & abroad. I actually got to learn that some of our Church wood carvings were created by local ex soldiers who kept themselves busy while in convalescence.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement