A solution for the Luas Red Line

Stephen15

Anyone seen the security on the Rome metro. I saw them and at I thought they were like the stt lads on the luas but no I thought I was seeing things they had a little certain something on they're belt that most gardai in Ireland don't even have. I looked at they're badges and they said private security not police. Not a junkie in sight as there were plenty off them at every station. Surely if these lads were deployed on the red line luas there would be no more messing.

Captain Chaos

No because the STT/STI or Brinks lads have those badges on their arms here too. The problem is Irish law which effectively dis arms any security in this country and favours the attackers. Security staff here have no legal physical force unless they are personally attacked by a set individual and only on that individual. The scum here know the law all too well too. They know exactly how far they can push things without crossing any lines that effect them legally.

Two words for this country and that is: Vigilante action. There is no fear of the law and law hands are tied up far to much. Major law reform is badly needed all round in the justice system as it is far too light handed and cotton wool.

Jamie2k9

While I would support more powers to the Luas security, giving some powers to some who patrol the Luas line would be dangerous.

I will also say some of the flack the Red Line get far form reality, yes there are issues but I don't think it's that significant in the grand scheme of things.

cgcsb

The legal profession in Ireland makes millions out of the tax payer by defending the worst scum in Ireland and finding any and every neat little loophole to get them off. You also have a lack of prisons and a lack of judges willing to inflict meaningful sentences.

The best way in Ireland to deal with it is to just stand up for yourself(and eachother). Once a junky threatened me with a needle on the red line, so I broke his nose and pushed him off the tram. Before the doors closed, he was shouting 'I'm gonna sue you!' They're actually not physically tough at all, just weedy little things with a sense of entitlement, a swift kick and they're quickly corrected, no need for lawyers. That being said I'm a man and almost 6 and a half foot tall, if you were woman on your own, you'd really be relying on the kindness of strangers.

Del.Monte

Whilst this have a go mentality is all very laudable it's as likely to end up with you in A+E or worse, and other passengers are unlikely to come to your aid. What's needed is zero tolerance of scumbags enforced by a well trained and equipped transport police backed up by the courts. It won't happen of course and that's why after ticking off both Red lines in my spotters book before they became off-limits, I won't be back.

cgcsb

Del.Monte wrote: »

What's needed is zero tolerance of scumbags enforced by a well trained and equipped transport police backed up by the courts.

A political impossibility

newacc2015

We could throw millions every year at this and push the social issue elsewhere in the city. Or we could actually deal with the addicts in this city. If someone is out of it on Heroin. Its easy to "ah scum etc etc". But they arent in the right state of mind. If they were sober would they have done the same thing? Probably not

The massive social issues on the NYC subways werent solved by throwing money at security. They were resolved by making NYC a safer and better city to live in. We can become like the US and give harsher/longer prison sentences. But with 1% of the US population in jail(significantly higher than any other country in the world). They still have have massive social and crime issues.

cgcsb

The US also has massive amounts of poverty, poor educational opportunities and little/no social mobility. What more could the Irish welfare state possibly give to address those 'social issues' i.e. crime.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

No because the STT/STI or Brinks lads have those badges on their arms here too. The problem is Irish law which effectively dis arms any security in this country and favours the attackers. Security staff here have no legal physical force unless they are personally attacked by a set individual and only on that individual. The scum here know the law all too well too. They know exactly how far they can push things without crossing any lines that effect them legally.

thats how it should be. private security should never be given any powers of authority. only the police force should be able to use force and have authority, and we need to fund them properly.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Two words for this country and that is: Vigilante action. There is no fear of the law and law hands are tied up far to much. Major law reform is badly needed all round in the justice system as it is far too light handed and cotton wool.

"Vigilante action" dear god. seriously. we have enough thugs as it is without more of them trying to take over the "business" or whatever you want to call it. using the justice system and problems with the law as an excuse for violence and thuggery invalidates ones argument frankly

end of the road

the reason a transport police won't happen is i suspect its not economical for the transport infrastructure we have. funding the gards properly and resourcing them properly may be more economic?

nullzero

end of the road wrote: »

thats how it should be. private security should never be given any powers of authority. only the police force should be able to use force and have authority, and we need to fund them properly.

STT are contracted to protect Luas trams and platforms which are open to the public but privately owned. They do have authority in that setting. The laws in relation to use of force in this country are an ass and criminals understand this all too well and exploit it. This isn't an argument centred around security guards losing the run of themselves and bullying people because they are on a power trip. The red line Luas is lawless because the security have to worry about being sued by criminals who are laughing at the country's legal system.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

No because the STT/STI or Brinks lads have those badges on their arms here too. The problem is Irish law which effectively dis arms any security in this country and favours the attackers. Security staff here have no legal physical force unless they are personally attacked by a set individual and only on that individual. The scum here know the law all too well too. They know exactly how far they can push things without crossing any lines that effect them legally.

Two words for this country and that is: Vigilante action. There is no fear of the law and law hands are tied up far to much. Major law reform is badly needed all round in the justice system as it is far too light handed and cotton wool.

The security staff on LUAS become an "authorised officer" of the company and do have the power to use "reasonable force" to remove people from the LUAS. The problem however here is the word reasonable, what one person may see as reasonable may not be what another person sees as reasonable, or more importantly what a judge would see as reasonable.

And it ISN'T just if they are attacked, they can use this reasonable force when dealing with anyone who has caused harm to another.

They can also arrest someone but must have training in any actions they take.

GM228

end of the road

nullzero wrote: »

STT are contracted to protect Luas trams and platforms which are open to the public but privately owned.

yes . and rightly, they have only the bare minimum of rights. no privately owned security anything should have any more rights or powers then the bare minimum of removing someone and holding them until the gards arrive. infact, we shouldn't be relying on private security firms to patrol transport anyway but thats probably for another thread

nullzero wrote: »

They do have authority in that setting.

yes, to remove you and to hold you until the gards come. thats perfectly fine for them.

nullzero wrote: »

The laws in relation to use of force in this country are an ass and criminals understand this all too well and exploit it.

the laws in relation to use of force are not an ass. they exist as they do to protect us and set boundaries. criminals exploit every law in the book and will do so no matter what.

nullzero wrote: »

This isn't an argument centred around security guards losing the run of themselves and bullying people because they are on a power trip.

who said it was.

nullzero wrote: »

The red line Luas is lawless because the security have to worry about being sued by criminals who are laughing at the country's legal system.

the red line luas isn't "lawless" . it has issues yes, but far from "lawless" . lack of gardai being availible due to under staffing and under funding means the resources barely exist to come when trouble happens. criminals will always laugh at a legal system, even the best ones.

nullzero

end of the road wrote: »

yes . and rightly, they have only the bare minimum of rights. no privately owned security anything should have any more rights or powers then the bare minimum of removing someone and holding them until the gards arrive. infact, we shouldn't be relying on private security firms to patrol transport anyway but thats probably for another thread



yes, to remove you and to hold you until the gards come. thats perfectly fine for them.



the laws in relation to use of force are not an ass. they exist as they do to protect us and set boundaries. criminals exploit every law in the book and will do so no matter what.



who said it was.



the red line luas isn't "lawless" . it has issues yes, but far from "lawless" . lack of gardai being availible due to under staffing and under funding means the resources barely exist to come when trouble happens. criminals will always laugh at a legal system, even the best ones.

As you said yourself in another related thread you haven't really had any first hand experience of situations involving violent assault or related criminality,therefore your opinions are coming from a more theoretical standpoint as opposed to an applied understanding of how these situations evolve and play out and what is required to dealing with them effectively or preferably deter them from occurring in the first place. Key to deterence from the position we find ourselves in currently is taking actions to inform those committing these offences that their actions will no longer be tolerated or easy to commit and get away with. Ideally Gardai would be present instead of private security, but failing an unprecedented recruitment drive by an Garda Siochana in the short to medium term to bring staffing levels up to a point where placing Gardai on Luas patrolling duty would be possible, private security is the only possible solution to the problems which currently exist. Having power tripping security guards bullying innocent people like Gestapo officers isn't going to be the result of giving private security slightly increased ability to dealing with violent criminality, rather a short term campaign operated in tandem with the Gardai to stamp out violent disorder on the red line would be beneficial to all in the long run. Create an environment in which fare dodging scumbags are not free to terrorise innocent civilians attempting to use public transportation and the problems cease. Scumbags will always abuse loopholes in the law, but they only do what they are allowed to do even when it seems they do what they want to do. You may use the red line regularly and only see the occasional junkie or dodgy character and feel slightly uneasy, but it only takes a few seconds for you to be the victim of a crime in that setting and see how lawless the red line really is before you get to fully understand the gravity of the situation.

end of the road

nullzero wrote: »

As you said yourself in another related thread you haven't really had any first hand experience of situations involving violent assault or related criminality,therefore your opinions are coming from a more theoretical standpoint as opposed to an applied understanding of how these situations evolve and play out and what is required to dealing with them effectively or preferably deter them from occurring in the first place.

yes and? if things were as bad as said then i'd have witnessed a hell of a lot of trouble over the long time i both lived in dublin and used the luas. i know what i'm talking about. i also have a clue as to the reality of what is needed to deal with trouble effectively. you will never deterr criminals thats a fact. trouble happens, but its easily dealt with by funding the gards properly. not by private security firms

nullzero wrote: »

Key to deterence from the position we find ourselves in currently is taking actions to inform those committing these offences that their actions will no longer be tolerated or easy to commit and get away with.

doesn't work. you can tell a criminal not to commit crime all you like but it won't stop them. proper funding and staffing of gardai is the only solution.

nullzero wrote: »

Ideally Gardai would be present instead of private security, but failing an unprecedented recruitment drive by an Garda Siochana in the short to medium term to bring staffing levels up to a point where placing Gardai on Luas patrolling duty would be possible, private security is the only possible solution to the problems which currently exist.

they are better then nothing yes, but thats all they should be. they have enough powers to do the basic job they are employed to do. thats more then enough.

nullzero wrote: »

Having power tripping security guards bullying innocent people like Gestapo officers isn't going to be the result of giving private security slightly increased ability to dealing with violent criminality, rather a short term campaign operated in tandem with the Gardai to stamp out violent disorder on the red line would be beneficial to all in the long run.

where are you getting this power tripping security nonsense from? private security have enough powers. they should get no more. they are private security and not the police.

nullzero wrote: »

Create an environment in which fare dodging scumbags are not free to terrorise innocent civilians attempting to use public transportation and the problems cease.

wishful thinking. if one is determined to do whatever on the red line they will.

nullzero wrote: »

Scumbags will always abuse loopholes in the law, but they only do what they are allowed to do even when it seems they do what they want to do. You may use the red line regularly and only see the occasional junkie or dodgy character and feel slightly uneasy, but it only takes a few seconds for you to be the victim of a crime in that setting and see how lawless the red line really is before you get to fully understand the gravity of the situation.

the red line is not lawless. it has problems that can easily be dealt with by proper funding and staffing of the garda.

nullzero

end of the road wrote: »

yes and? if things were as bad as said then i'd have witnessed a hell of a lot of trouble over the long time i both lived in dublin and used the luas. i know what i'm talking about. i also have a clue as to the reality of what is needed to deal with trouble effectively. you will never deterr criminals thats a fact. trouble happens, but its easily dealt with by funding the gards properly. not by private security firms



doesn't work. you can tell a criminal not to commit crime all you like but it won't stop them. proper funding and staffing of gardai is the only solution.



they are better then nothing yes, but thats all they should be. they have enough powers to do the basic job they are employed to do. thats more then enough.



where are you getting this power tripping security nonsense from? private security have enough powers. they should get no more. they are private security and not the police.



wishful thinking. if one is determined to do whatever on the red line they will.



the red line is not lawless. it has problems that can easily be dealt with by proper funding and staffing of the garda.

There is no proper funding for the Gardai, that is the issue. Not only that, there will be no funding being made available any time soon either.

I have witnessed Savage violence on the Luas red line. Just because you haven't witnessed it you assume that it isn't happening and you are so wrong it is laughable.

Its obvious you're not going to listen to any other points of view on this subject. You have yet to make any sort of informed point at all, instead you're relying on misinformed opinion.
Criminality can of course be deterred, I have no idea what you mean by saying it can't be, you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about, although a reality check of that sort probably doesn't sit well with your ego.

I don't know what issue you have with private security on the luas, as Gardai will probably never be deployed on trams as you would like the other option is no security on trams, and security guards have little to no powers as opposed to "they have enough powers" as you stated. Can you inform me exactly what powers they have by any chance? Do you understand the parameters that prevent them from carrying out their jobs more effectively?

I know the STT can look intimidating in their uniforms etc but they have very limited powers and are struggling to dealing with the problems on the red line. I personally don't envy the job they have to do. Hopefully you continue to be lucky and never have to be involved in any sort of dangerous or violent situations on the luas, but if you are you may well wish the private security you have such disdain for were capable of doing more to prevent the crime which may be committed against you.

end of the road

nullzero wrote: »

There is no proper funding for the Gardai, that is the issue. Not only that, there will be no funding being made available any time soon either.

doesn't change the fact the private security firms have the basic power needed and don't need any more.

nullzero wrote: »

I have witnessed Savage violence on the Luas red line. Just because you haven't witnessed it you assume that it isn't happening and you are so wrong it is laughable.

"Just because you haven't witnessed it you assume that it isn't happening" . what a load of old rubbish. making up what i think or believe doesn't make what you believe about me fact, as it isn't.

nullzero wrote: »

Its obvious you're not going to listen to any other points of view on this subject. You have yet to make any sort of informed point at all, instead you're relying on misinformed opinion.

your deluded. stop making things up about me. my opinion is fact as i've been both a long term luas user and i lived in dublin for years. i've made plenty of valid points, you not liking them doesn't make them invalid. and i don't do "miss informed" anything as i've no need to when i've been a regular user of the particular service being discussed for a long time. the difference between me and you is i don't deny trouble happens, i'm not making out how it is "lawless" when it isn't, and when the problems can be dealt with by proper funding of law enforcement.

nullzero wrote: »

Criminality can of course be deterred, I have no idea what you mean by saying it can't be, you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about, although a reality check of that sort probably doesn't sit well with your ego.

criminality can only be deterred for those not planning on breaking the law. i clearly have a clue of what i'm talking about and if anyone needs the reality check its your good self.

nullzero wrote: »

I don't know what issue you have with private security on the luas, as Gardai will probably never be deployed on trams as you would like the other option is no security on trams, and security guards have little to no powers as opposed to "they have enough powers" as you stated. Can you inform me exactly what powers they have by any chance? Do you understand the parameters that prevent them from carrying out their jobs more effectively?

the have the power to hold people until the gardai arrive and remove them from the tram. they can all ready use some reasonable force. they have the powers needed and they can and do what they are payed to do effectively.

nullzero wrote: »

I know the STT can look intimidating in their uniforms etc but they have very limited powers and are struggling to dealing with the problems on the red line. I personally don't envy the job they have to do.

their job is to provide simple security. they are not a police force. they provide simple security. they do what they are payed for.

nullzero wrote: »

Hopefully you continue to be lucky and never have to be involved in any sort of dangerous or violent situations on the luas, but if you are you may well wish the private security you have such disdain for were capable of doing more to prevent the crime which may be committed against you.

have you any evidence i have such disdain for private security? expecting them not to be a police force is not "having disdain" . while the red line has problems they can easily be fixed by proper funding of the gards. they cannot and never will be fixed by private security firms, its not their job or duty to be a police force. they have the powers they need.

nullzero

end of the road wrote: »

doesn't change the fact the private security firms have the basic power needed and don't need any more.



"Just because you haven't witnessed it you assume that it isn't happening" . what a load of old rubbish. making up what i think or believe doesn't make what you believe about me fact, as it isn't.



your deluded. stop making things up about me. my opinion is fact as i've been both a long term luas user and i lived in dublin for years. i've made plenty of valid points, you not liking them doesn't make them invalid. and i don't do "miss informed" anything as i've no need to when i've been a regular user of the particular service being discussed for a long time. the difference between me and you is i don't deny trouble happens, i'm not making out how it is "lawless" when it isn't, and when the problems can be dealt with by proper funding of law enforcement.



criminality can only be deterred for those not planning on breaking the law. i clearly have a clue of what i'm talking about and if anyone needs the reality check its your good self.



the have the power to hold people until the gardai arrive and remove them from the tram. they can all ready use some reasonable force. they have the powers needed and they can and do what they are payed to do effectively.



their job is to provide simple security. they are not a police force. they provide simple security. they do what they are payed for.



have you any evidence i have such disdain for private security? expecting them not to be a police force is not "having disdain" . while the red line has problems they can easily be fixed by proper funding of the gards. they cannot and never will be fixed by private security firms, its not their job or duty to be a police force. they have the powers they need.

Firstly I haven't made things up about you. I merely pointed out the fact that you said you have no first hand experience of criminality on the luas. Can I ask which luas line do you use and which section do you travel on regularly?

You seem bent on making me out to be wrong even though you have no practical experience to inform your opinion which seems a little strange if I'm honest. I have been witness to such incidents and whilst they do not happen continuously all day every day they do not need to in order to constitute a serious problem.

Nobody is suggesting that private security be used as a police force, and you continually state that Garda funding needs to be increased (which I agree with) without being pragmatic enough to realize that such funding will take too long to materialise to be effective in this instance. Private security is effective in stopping crime when it is implemented correctly. In a setting such as a tram or even a shopping centre you will regularly see criminals take advantage of the fact that the law favours them, and they will regularly litigate against private security providers as a result.
Again you are making assumptions about these things which is fine if you wish to do so but you must accept that your opinions are not validated simple by virtue of you having them.

Slight adjustments to legislation governing security personnel is all that is needed to have proper restraint and arrest procedures which are separate to those of the Gardai and the basic right of citizens arrest which is the only right security personnel possess currently. Security personnel can make a citizens arrest as the legislation stands, but I have seen gangs of people wrestle criminals away from security guards as they wait for Gardai arrive allowing criminals away Scott free. A security guard does not have adequate ability under current legislation to carry out their job correctly which basically ensures the continued inability of private security to assist in regulating crime properly.

end of the road

nullzero wrote: »

Firstly I haven't made things up about you. I merely pointed out the fact that you said you have no first hand experience of criminality on the luas. Can I ask which luas line do you use and which section do you travel on regularly?

did you not read my last post which stated "the service being discussed" . that would give a clue i was a regular user of the red line, using various sections.

nullzero wrote: »

You seem bent on making me out to be wrong even though you have no practical experience to inform your opinion which seems a little strange if I'm honest.

really?

nullzero wrote: »

Private security is effective in stopping crime when it is implemented correctly.

it is implemented correctly. their job isn't to stop crime, they are not a police. their job is to search around wherever to ensure nothing is happening, and where it is hold those doing whatever until the gards arrive

nullzero wrote: »

In a setting such as a tram or even a shopping centre you will regularly see criminals take advantage of the fact that the law favours them, and they will regularly litigate against private security providers as a result.

the law does not favour them. if someone is litigating against someone or a provider chances are something must have happened. if nothing has been done then the case will be thrown out.

nullzero wrote: »

Slight adjustments to legislation governing security personnel is all that is needed to have proper restraint and arrest procedures which are separate to those of the Gardai and the basic right of citizens arrest which is the only right security personnel possess currently.

the rights and powers they have are enough to do their basic job. stop expecting them to do any more.

nullzero wrote: »

Security personnel can make a citizens arrest as the legislation stands, but I have seen gangs of people wrestle criminals away from security guards as they wait for Gardai arrive allowing criminals away Scott free.

that would happen regardless unfortunately. which is where the police come in.

nullzero wrote: »

A security guard does not have adequate ability under current legislation to carry out their job correctly

yes they do.

nullzero wrote: »

which basically ensures the continued inability of private security to assist in regulating crime properly.

its not their job to regulate crime. their job is to only provide the bare basics in securing the area where they work. reporting anything out of the ordinary and then holding the person until the gards arrive. they are able to do all that.

nullzero

end of the road wrote: »

did you not read my last post which stated "the service being discussed" . that would give a clue i was a regular user of the red line, using various sections.



really?



it is implemented correctly. their job isn't to stop crime, they are not a police. their job is to search around wherever to ensure nothing is happening, and where it is hold those doing whatever until the gards arrive



the law does not favour them. if someone is litigating against someone or a provider chances are something must have happened. if nothing has been done then the case will be thrown out.



the rights and powers they have are enough to do their basic job. stop expecting them to do any more.



that would happen regardless unfortunately. which is where the police come in.



yes they do.



its not their job to regulate crime. their job is to only provide the bare basics in securing the area where they work. reporting anything out of the ordinary and then holding the person until the gards arrive. they are able to do all that.

I appreciate your opinion but everything you are saying illustrates your lack of understanding of this subject.
Boards is full of opinionated people, quite obviously. I could spend a very long time continuing this conversation along these lines, you will not accept anything I have to say on the subject so I'd only be wasting my time and yours.
I respect the veracity with which you have defended your factually inaccurate opinions on this subject, for sheer belligerence I respect you, it would be facetious of me to say you have added anything of worth to this discussion beyond that.
You have no idea of how private security works on an operational level or how inadequate currently existing legislation is to assisting high risk security personnel to do their jobs properly.

Thanks for a somewhat interesting discussion but I have no interest in continuing in a tit for tat argument having reviewed our last few posts, the discussion has taken a back seat to I say you say silliness.

All the best and safe travels on the Luas.

end of the road

nullzero wrote: »

I appreciate your opinion but everything you are saying illustrates your lack of understanding of this subject.

no it doesn't. i very much understand the subject. i also know what i'm talking about in relation to the red line and its issues. lack of proper law enforcement is the reason the nonsense continues. it can be easily solved though with a properly funded police force.

nullzero wrote: »

You have no idea of how private security works on an operational level or how inadequate currently existing legislation is to assisting high risk security personnel to do their jobs properly.

the legislation is fine. it doesn't need changing. private security are able to do what they exist to do perfectly fine.