Wood DG Sash Windows out of Square.

Calibos

Wasn't sure where to put this question as the issue might stem from the structure the windows went into or the quality of install and thus might benefit from the expertise in this forum whereas the fix is likely to be DIY which might mean the question should have gone to that forum. Mods, feel free to move the thread if you feel its not appropriate for here.

1860-70 renovation done in 2010. Wooden DG Sash windows bought from an infamous South West supplier. Our builder installed the windows.

Wasn't really happy with the sound performance of the windows from nearly day one. Initially I put it down to Sash windows just not being great at keeping out sound by virtue of their design. (I now understand thats not the case at all). The more I read about the South Western Manufacturer the more I thought the windows were just poorly designed/sealed. Then read stories about very poor customer service and it being impossible to get them to sort out issues so that put me off even trying. We had a million other stresses and issues going on at the time and this one just went on the back burner. Learned to live with the traffic noise and drunks of a weekend somewhat.

A while back I got a bee in my bonnet about it again and examined most of the windows. Firstly, over the course of the last 150 years the window openings have gone out of square which didn't help. But it looks like the Window frames weren't shimmed right/level. I noticed the the top of the top sash and the bottom of the bottom sash don't close flush to the frame on both sides. Tight on one side with a gap opening up to about 5mm on the other side. If my logic is correct I guess that means the middle bars don't close flush/tight to each other either. The thumb locks all close however, some with not much resistance some requiring more force.

What put to bed any of my worries about sash windows not intrinsically being good at blocking sound came a little while ago when I found myself in the kitchen in the middle of the day but without all the usual internal background sound of TV and/or hustle and bustle of family life nor the french doors open for the dogs. All the while there was a big lorry reversing outside. I couldn't hear a thing and this lorry was a mere 15ft away from the windows right outside. Thought to myself, "Jaysus, its taken 5 years for a scenario to present itself with no distractions to really judge the windows when it was super quiet inside and yet with something really loud going on outside. These two windows passed with flying colours. Had the presence of mind to examine these windows for squareness which I had never done before even after checking all the others in the past. I guess the skewed granite cills on the outside just made me assume the frames of these two windows would not be square just like the others and I never bothered doing a close inspection before. Well turns out they must not be out of square because the top and bottom sashes close and lock tight to the frame top and bottom and thus the middle too and by golly where they doing a fantastic job of keeping out the sound from outside.

This put sorting out the windows once and for all back on my agenda/todo list after living with the noise for 5 years. Especially now that I realised that these windows were in fact capable of incredible sound-proofness.

I figured I'd have to investigate some thicker gaskets/seals but worry that unless the seals are compressed tightly, while they might seal against drafts, they might not make much difference to the sound intrusion. Should I instead be thinking of glueing shims/wedges of thin pieces of wood to the top and bottom of the sash and middle bars to plug these 5mm gaps on one side. Maybe I should even be thinking about planing the top and bottom of the sashs to mate with the out of square frames. I don't really see squaring the actual frames as an option because all the interior trim would have to be ripped off and redone of I were to get that done.

What say you??

Calibos

I take it 166 people popped their head into this thread and 'Noped' out when they saw the wall of text??

I find it hard to balance too much info in a TLDR wall of text and not enough info in a brief synopsis which causes pages of pages of clarifying details for multiple posters.

I'll try a TLDR without as much context.

9+2 bays of Wooden sashes fitted in 2010 Victorian Renovation in out of square 150 year old openings, only two of which are shimmed/squared well and seal perfectly resulting in no draughts and fantastic sound insulation. All other sash frames are out of square resulting in draughts and very poor sound insulation. Basically where top and bottom of the sashes meet the frame top and bottom when windows are closed, they are tight on one side but the gap opens to 5mm by the other side. Presumably this means the sashes don't mate tight in the middle either.


Squaring all the windows is pretty much out of the question due to disruption and cost.

How about gluing wedges/shims to the top bottom and middle of the sashes to fill the gaps enabling the gaskets to seal well. Or what about planing the top and bottom of the sashes to match and mate flush with the out of square frames which will also resolve the mating in the middle as a side effect?

Metric Tensor

Hi Calibos,

I read the original post in full - twice. But I had absolutely no useful advice for you so I restrained from posting.

Sadly I still have no useful info! Did you try querying the carpentry forum members? They might have some idea.

Calibos

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Hi Calibos,

I read the original post in full - twice. But I had absolutely no useful advice for you so I restrained from posting.

Sadly I still have no useful info! Did you try querying the carpentry forum members? They might have some idea.

Why didn't I consider that? Doh! Nice one, thanks Metric ! I'll copy and paste my second post over there when I finish work.

cpoh1

Calibos wrote: »

I take it 166 people popped their head into this thread and 'Noped' out when they saw the wall of text??

It appears most of the threads are like that on here, nobody replies to stuff unless its about air tightness or assigned certifiers!

Calibos

cpoh1 wrote: »

It appears most of the threads are like that on here, nobody replies to stuff unless its about air tightness or assigned certifiers!

I've noticed that too

A lot of threads seem to go like this:

...just wondering if X or Y is a good idea or even feasible before I go any further.

What does your engineer say?

...eh, I haven't hired an engineer yet because I don't know if X or Y is even feasible, thats why I'm asking here...to see if its worth proceeding and hiring an engineer

What does your engineer say?
What does your engineer say?
What does your engineer say?
What does your engineer say?




All joking aside, it seems this forum is for no less than extremely competent self builders.


No matter though. I'm getting great help in the Woodwork forum. Thanks again metric btw. In fairness, the Woodwork forum actually makes more sense than the construction forum in hindsight for my particular problem anyway. Now if I was prepared to reinstall those out of square sash window frames and wanted advice on airtightness after reinstalling, then this place would be the right place.