Sub 2:30 - Next Step?

frebel

Looking for next challenge after DCM... was injured coming up to it, missed a few weeks training and didn't pb (ran sub 3, but was flying for last 5km - ran 20:03) Ran a 2:47 earlier this year on very low weekly mileage (maxed at 32 miles - but all quality with hard cross-training)

My long term goal is get under 2:30 - I know that will take time with lots of little steps along the way but want to figure out the best next step in the process for me...

Will focus on cross-training (swimming mostly), some strength work to work on pre-hab and mobility but after that should I consider Speed or Endurance after that?

Should I target a Half Marathon in Spring to get down to 1:14 range first? (pb is 1:18) I could then then add endurance later to that

OR

Consider building up miles in my legs so that I can adapt in the future to demands of a high-mileage programme with quality miles for a sub 2:40 marathon? Been reading about Lydiard's ideas behind base building with runs based on time rather than paces which seem to make sense to get up 80 miles etc

Would appreciate any feedback...(have been looking through loads of threads and training logs and have searched for threads like this but hope I haven't doubled up a thread on this)

Thanks
Frebel

Tom__jnr2

frebel wrote: »

Looking for next challenge after DCM... was injured coming up to it, missed a few weeks training and didn't pb (ran sub 3, but was flying for last 5km - ran 20:03) Ran a 2:47 earlier this year on very low weekly mileage (maxed at 32 miles - but all quality with hard cross-training)

My long term goal is get under 2:30 - I know that will take time with lots of little steps along the way but want to figure out the best next step in the process for me...

Will focus on cross-training (swimming mostly), some strength work to work on pre-hab and mobility but after that should I consider Speed or Endurance after that?

Should I target a Half Marathon in Spring to get down to 1:14 range first? (pb is 1:18) I could then then add endurance later to that

OR

Consider building up miles in my legs so that I can adapt in the future to demands of a high-mileage programme with quality miles for a sub 2:40 marathon? Been reading about Lydiard's ideas behind base building with runs based on time rather than paces which seem to make sense to get up 80 miles etc

Would appreciate any feedback...(have been looking through loads of threads and training logs and have searched for threads like this but hope I haven't doubled up a thread on this)

Thanks
Frebel

I did 2:41 with just training for 5k so I am a big advocate of low milage approach for anyone with few years in endurance experience. My biggest week was 90k with just one run longer than 20 (22k).
I did a long of strength and speed work on track thou. Out of 7runs a week 7were hard
If I were you, I would concetrate on quality and pure speed. You need to go close 16 for 5k for 1:14 HM.

Krusty_Clown

Hi Frebel, just my own 2c worth (I'm not a sub 2:30 runner either, just hopefully gradually moving in that direction). Worth bearing in mind that everybody is different and has a very unique set of strengths and weaknesses, so what takes you from point A to point B depends on your specific physical make-up and where your talents lie. So speaking quite generically, for a sub 2:30, I reckon you need a few things:
1) Speed - you need to build the speed to a point where 5:40/mile is not considered hard - it feels almost like a steady pace run.
2) Endurance - You need to develop to a point where 26 miles does not represent a specific challenge (you no longer think of it as long, you just think of it as a specific distance)
3) Speed-endurance - you need to gradually develop your physiological systems to allow you to hold on to that 5:40/mile pace for longer and longer distances, until you can hold it for the full marathon distance.

You can't do all of the above at the same time (the physical demand is too great), so you need to take a phased approach (seasonal/cycles). So you might for example spend half of the year focusing on speed (5k training for example), switch to some interim goals in the middle of the year (10 miles / half marathon - which will help with speed endurance) and then focus on marathon improvement (the specific) for the latter part of the year. You don't do the same thing through each of these cycles, but rather try to identify your weaknesses and do more specific work on those areas.

The problem is that not all of the above items are mutually exclusive - if you want to make decent speed gains, then you need a good base before you start the harder training, in order to reduce the risk of injury. But coming from a marathon cycle, you may have that already. Are you part of a club? If so, then some cross-country might build strength, before switching to some base building, before moving onto speed specific work?

The other variable is time. If (like me) you don't have a background in sports or physical activity, then it's going to take a while to build the engine that supports this higher level of physical activity - you need to make adaptations that are measured in seasons and thousands of miles, rather than tweaks to training plans. It has taken me two years to take my marathon PB from 2:38 to 2:33. Others will get there far quicker (on substantially lower mileage). The hard part is figuring out what works best for you.

frebel

Thanks for replying lads...some great info...

Low Mileage and High Intensity Option

Tom__jnr2 wrote: »

I did 2:41 with just training for 5k so I am a big advocate of low milage approach for anyone with few years in endurance experience. My biggest week was 90k with just one run longer than 20 (22k).
I did a long of strength and speed work on track thou. Out of 7runs a week 7were hard
If I were you, I would concetrate on quality and pure speed. You need to go close 16 for 5k for 1:14 HM.

I think this was great to get me to 2:47 range and could knock off a few more minutes in another training cycle this way but I think that I'd struggle long-term to make progress as nearly all of my injuries have happened doing speed work on a track (I seem to be ok on flat road but not on track which obviously has a better surface and is easier for pure speed but turns don't seem to suit my hamstrings!)

I do need to lower my 5k though eventually but not too sure when I should focus on it - now or later (pb now is just over 1:17 albeit in a hungover state)


You've thrown up some great options Krusty

if you want to make decent speed gains, then you need a good base before you start the harder training, in order to reduce the risk of injury. But coming from a marathon cycle, you may have that already. Are you part of a club? If so, then some cross-country might build strength, before switching to some base building, before moving onto speed specific work?

I'm thinking of joining a club so cross country could be possible... Despite sub 3 marathons, I don't have a major base of mileage despite running more a less consistently for 2 years) Would a season like this make sense?

Nov: Recover and Cross-Train with some easy running
Dec to Jan: Cross-Country and/or Base Building of Easy Running building up Mileage
Feb to March: Speed - 5k Target Training
April to May: Speed-Endurance - HM
Dublin City Marathon 2016?

I would mix in strength, mobility and cross-training within each of these cycles

Krusty_Clown

frebel wrote: »

Would a season like this make sense?

Nov: Recover and Cross-Train with some easy running
Dec to Jan: Cross-Country and/or Base Building of Easy Running building up Mileage
Feb to March: Speed - 5k Target Training
April to May: Speed-Endurance - HM
Dublin City Marathon 2016?

I would mix in strength, mobility and cross-training within each of these cycles

Hi frebel, that would all seem logical, however, XC season is very much underway, but a good base-building/xc period of training/running will certainly help. Might be an idea to meet with a local club coach to see if they have any suggestions/ideas on how to structure your year and how your plans might fit in with those of the club.

If you want to make decent gains at the 5k distance, you may want/need to stretch out that period beyond two months. Certainly if you haven't done 5k specific stuff, you'll see fairly immediate improvements, but if you want to make gains (beyond those that come simply form doing specific training for the distance) you might want to look at 3-4 months. If a lot of the early part of the year is spent building towards a marathon plan, then the marathon plan itself can be shortened (e.g. 12-14 weeks), as your entire year is part of one longer protracted cycle.