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Chifney bit?

  • 27-10-2015 7:54pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭


    Following on from my last thread a few months back about my dangerous mare.
    Little update, she's been in a field on her own but can still see her friends and has made new ones. She comes running up to me again when I come up. She's still a bit antsy in the yard however, seems she still has other horses on the brain :rolleyes:

    Much easier to manage altogether though, she'll stand tied for grooming nice and relaxed and won't look to bolt back to the field every chance she gets she's fairly laid back when up at the yard. Haven't ridden in a good while as ive started a New job which is stressful and I'm unwell waiting on a hospital appointment and possible surgery. So it's been mostly lunging and being brought in for grooming sessions. I'm worried about stabling starting 1st November though as she is still hesitant to go into the stable. Maybe bringing her in when it's dark will help, it normally does.

    Now my question at hand is, has anyone ever used a chifney bit on a horse who just does not know how to walk? I'm very hesitant to use one and she's good most of the time. The problem I'm having is, her new field is beyond a walkway that has fields either side of it. These fields are filled with horses my mare does not like. She won't just walk by she has to trot, kick out and being very obvious let's say. The other horses will, of course, come over when she starts this as it's interesting to them! If she would just walk the other horses will not even look twice at her!

    She just dislikes them, ears pinned, if they come close she'll kick out at them, etc. Unfortionately one horse she especially dislikes is a people pleaser and will always come up to us, he's a pest! She never liked him, even when riding In the arena with him she won't let him near her!

    There is no other way to bring her in!

    So I'm considering a chifney to see if it'll help me to keep her in walk and therefore less interesting and exciting for the other horses out grazing. She's a dream to lead down this lane when those 4 fields are empty :pac:

    It seems to be lose/lose with this horse!

    Is there any other alternative to keep her under control when leading? I've found with a bog standard head collar I have to almost use my entire body weight applying pressure to make her walk. She will walk eventually and all pressure is released, but it takes a lot to stop her when she sees these horses.


Comments

  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,514 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Have you tried supplements like Moody mare?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 125 ✭✭bob1984


    Have you tried a pressure head collar???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,480 ✭✭✭Kamili


    bob1984 wrote: »
    Have you tried a pressure head collar???

    I second this, I found it great for when my fella was being a bit antsy to load. Worked really well and less severe than the chifney.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    A chifney is really quite severe and I would avoid it if at all possible. Is it stopping that's the problem or getting her to walk? What do you do other than put all your weight behind the rope?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,480 ✭✭✭Kamili


    Sounds strange but a horse will resist pressure and won't walk if you put too much weight into the pull.

    Change direction, turn her then walk and see how she goes. I know if I'm taking my guy in from the field and I lean on the rope he won't budge, but if I turn him and walk him on in another direction no matter how slight he will come.

    Bring a carrot and break it up, or polo mints (or a treat that she likes) and reward her when she moves forward by giving her some when she does what you want. Make yourself more interesting than what is going on in the field. Get her to focus on you. Talk to her, pet her, make yourself more exciting (in a quiet calm way) and get her to focus on you.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭GardeningGirl


    Hi. Why not sell her to another good home ? Sorry I'm not familiar with your situation but if you're under duress with work and health then perhaps it would be better long term for both of you. There's nothing wrong with changing things up :) Also, im a bit of a hippy but to be honest, that is a severe bit. Coercing the horse into complying only masks the issue and doesnt fix it, it may even lead to making it aggrivated particularly if some how you come to be in a situation where you dont have XYZ gadget to use. Hope your surgery goes well and best of luck with the horse :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,779 ✭✭✭✭fits


    If its a choice between chifney and safety id go with the chifney. You could try a pressure headcollar too or just lead her in a normal bridle. She might settle down when doing it every day and if you use a more severe option for the first while so she learns to behave herself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭monflat


    God help you with everything else going on and having the mare to deal with.

    Can you afford help?
    Could you get help getting her schooled etc.

    Really you have to ask yourself the question is this what's owning a horse all about?
    What are you gettin out of this other than constant problems day in day out.

    It's not enjoyable at all and this alone would sap your energy. Each time you go to bring her in your faced with problems.

    .
    I had a young horse once very well bred. Similar problems to yourself with regards to leading separation anxiety etc.
    She broke my heart.
    I tried everything.
    She was a rearer too and spent more time on her hind legs than she did on all four legs.
    I spent considerable time doing groundwork with her and taking her to many horsemanship classes / courses.

    However despite all the work I did with her she still was not 100 % she improved greatly.
    However I always wondered was she a bit brain damaged! No messing deadly serious.
    It can happen to humans and animals.

    Anyway I found out latet she was very badly weaned as a youngster 6 months old put in stable one day away from her mother top door locked over that was it.

    It effected her greatly.
    I sold her as a brood mare.

    I spent savage money on her not necessarily buying her but everything else.

    Something like this gets in on you. It takes all your energy.
    Consider other options and consider asking yourself why do you like horses?
    To ride?
    To look at?
    To spend all your money on?

    To have heartache each time you go to yard to look at horse you go oh god what is goin to be like today?

    Also if you are not feeling 100 % yourself she will know this and pick up on your energies as you know already.


    Really have a think about it as your consuming a lot of time energy and money on her


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭TG1


    fits wrote: »
    If its a choice between chifney and safety id go with the chifney. You could try a pressure headcollar too or just lead her in a normal bridle. She might settle down when doing it every day and if you use a more severe option for the first while so she learns to behave herself.

    This, so much this!!! A chifney is severe if its used severely but used correctly it is a safety mechanism in a dangerous situation!

    I dealt with a very stallion-ish 17h gelding and he was put in a chifney for dealing with at shows as he would cart 5'4 of me round the place after other horses.

    The chifney went on and he behaved like an angel, I didn't have to chuck or pull, just having the pressure there gave me the control to walk him rather than ski behind him. He also liked having something to chew on which distracted him.

    If it's likely that there will be an accident bringing your mare in, put in a chifney and see if it works! It's like a lot of bits, it's only severe if its used severley - and this is from someone who rides in a happy mouth snaffle with a roller, I'm all about the less gadgets in their mouths the better. But not at the risk of someone's safety!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Jen Pigs Fly


    Have you tried supplements like Moody mare?

    No actually! I never thought of that, she used to be on slut mix 7 years ago when we used to compete! I'll give it a go!
    bob1984 wrote: »
    Have you tried a pressure head collar???

    This is what I'm thinking, completely forgot about that, I'll try a pressure head collar first before a chifney! I've only ever used chimneys when handling stallions around mares when not breeding.
    sup_dude wrote: »
    A chifney is really quite severe and I would avoid it if at all possible. Is it stopping that's the problem or getting her to walk? What do you do other than put all your weight behind the rope?

    Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, it's trying to stop her is the problem! She gets so wound up because she does not like the horses down the lane, she never did and it doesn't help when he walks up to her! She just gets bouncy and flighty when they come near. It's more so I can keep her in walk as the other horses get less excited when she just walks by!
    Kamili wrote: »
    Sounds strange but a horse will resist pressure and won't walk if you put too much weight into the pull.

    Change direction, turn her then walk and see how she goes. I know if I'm taking my guy in from the field and I lean on the rope he won't budge, but if I turn him and walk him on in another direction no matter how slight he will come.

    Bring a carrot and break it up, or polo mints (or a treat that she likes) and reward her when she moves forward by giving her some when she does what you want. Make yourself more interesting than what is going on in the field. Get her to focus on you. Talk to her, pet her, make yourself more exciting (in a quiet calm way) and get her to focus on you.

    Can't really turn her in this lane, its around a cars width and with horses she doesn't like either side I'd rather not turn her as she kicks out at these horses :rolleyes: pressure is to keep her walking, as when she starts trotting and snorting at these horses they get excited and start cantering around her which makes her worse. I use pressure while telling her to be easy and walk to try to keep the overall excitement levels down!
    Hi. Why not sell her to another good home ? Sorry I'm not familiar with your situation but if you're under duress with work and health then perhaps it would be better long term for both of you. There's nothing wrong with changing things up :) Also, im a bit of a hippy but to be honest, that is a severe bit. Coercing the horse into complying only masks the issue and doesnt fix it, it may even lead to making it aggrivated particularly if some how you come to be in a situation where you dont have XYZ gadget to use. Hope your surgery goes well and best of luck with the horse :)

    Why would I sell a horse I promised a forever home? Riding wise she's perfect, schooling preliminary dressage with scope to go to higher levels? It's other horses setting her off that causes her to get over excited is the problem? And just because I'm working now doesn't mean in a few months time when things settle I can ride every day again? I have her 8 years, I've had her through college, moving abroad, moving 5 hours away? I've had her through breaking my sternum from a car crash, numberous injuries. I'm sorry but I will not be selling this horse. I will use a pressure head collar, they slipped my mind when I posted this.

    Problem is getting antsy around horses she doesn't like which makes them excited and canter up to her which in turn makes her more annoyed. If she stays in walk they don't even look at her. Surgery is a major one, it's replacing a valve in my stomach but once I'm fixed I'll be back riding again, so I'll leave her where she is! Won't ever sell this horse, we've been through too much together and I know her and her quirks, under other hands she could be ruined very quickly. She used to be schooled for me 8 years ago and they ruined her, it took me months to iron out her fear of bridling after the rough "to the point" treatment.

    From what I've learnt over the 8 years of having her, Arabians are not like your typical horse, they don't appreciate the typical handling that I would use with say a cob or Connemara! Can't just bring her in and throw a saddle on her like what most to the point people do. She may be bad now but I can get her back, under other hands she will get worse.
    fits wrote: »
    If its a choice between chifney and safety id go with the chifney. You could try a pressure headcollar too or just lead her in a normal bridle. She might settle down when doing it every day and if you use a more severe option for the first while so she learns to behave herself.

    I'd say a pressure head collar will work, as she responds to pressure I'm a normal one. normally only use chifneys when handling stallions I'm not used to around mares. It's the other horses that's the problem she gets too excited, which in turn makes them more excited, vicious circle. If she would just walk calmly by then there would be no issue.
    monflat wrote: »
    God help you with everything else going on and having the mare to deal with.

    Can you afford help?
    Could you get help getting her schooled etc.

    Really you have to ask yourself the question is this what's owning a horse all about?
    What are you gettin out of this other than constant problems day in day out.

    It's not enjoyable at all and this alone would sap your energy. Each time you go to bring her in your faced with problems.

    .
    I had a young horse once very well bred. Similar problems to yourself with regards to leading separation anxiety etc.
    She broke my heart.
    I tried everything.
    She was a rearer too and spent more time on her hind legs than she did on all four legs.
    I spent considerable time doing groundwork with her and taking her to many horsemanship classes / courses.

    However despite all the work I did with her she still was not 100 % she improved greatly.
    However I always wondered was she a bit brain damaged! No messing deadly serious.
    It can happen to humans and animals.

    Anyway I found out latet she was very badly weaned as a youngster 6 months old put in stable one day away from her mother top door locked over that was it.

    It effected her greatly.
    I sold her as a brood mare.

    I spent savage money on her not necessarily buying her but everything else.

    Something like this gets in on you. It takes all your energy.
    Consider other options and consider asking yourself why do you like horses?
    To ride?
    To look at?
    To spend all your money on?

    To have heartache each time you go to yard to look at horse you go oh god what is goin to be like today?

    Also if you are not feeling 100 % yourself she will know this and pick up on your energies as you know already.


    Really have a think about it as your consuming a lot of time energy and money on her

    We're 8 years together, I think it's a mix of her being let off for too long, getting too used to being freedom and being used to the yard. She very bossy and she wants to know everyone's business! She dislikes the horses down the lane which we now have to go through, so if I can just keep her in walk we get by no issue its when she starts to get excited the others pick up on it and get excited and start cantering up to her which she hates as she doesn't like these horses! Lane is a cars width so not much room to escape haha.

    She was a broodmare up until I got her at 6. She does not tie, gets into a panic, she's fine when I'm with her but if I have to walk away to get something I need to either put her into the stable or get someone to hold her. She panics when tied. She also will panic if you catch her lieing down. I have a suspicion she was kept is stocks type stabling tied all the time and judging by her reaction to a fork was poked or prodded when she tried to lie as those sort of stables a horse can't really lie on them.


    TG1 wrote: »
    This, so much this!!! A chifney is severe if its used severely but used correctly it is a safety mechanism in a dangerous situation!

    I dealt with a very stallion-ish 17h gelding and he was put in a chifney for dealing with at shows as he would cart 5'4 of me round the place after other horses.

    The chifney went on and he behaved like an angel, I didn't have to chuck or pull, just having the pressure there gave me the control to walk him rather than ski behind him. He also liked having something to chew on which distracted him.

    If it's likely that there will be an accident bringing your mare in, put in a chifney and see if it works! It's like a lot of bits, it's only severe if its used severley - and this is from someone who rides in a happy mouth snaffle with a roller, I'm all about the less gadgets in their mouths the better. But not at the risk of someone's safety!!

    I've used chifneys for stallions too, I understand how harsh they are and I honestly don't think she needs it, I was reminded of a pressure head collar which I'll try! I sometimes lead her in the bridle but as she's a bit less horse most of the time she's a very soft mouth and I like to avoid harsh handling with the mouth. I'll get a pressure head Collar!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 106 ✭✭otwb1


    Assuming that you've tried a rope around her nose/stallion chain on her nose? Same concept as the pressure headcoller in that it acts when you need it, then pressure releases when she behaves, but without the trip to the tack shop.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Jen Pigs Fly


    otwb1 wrote: »
    Assuming that you've tried a rope around her nose/stallion chain on her nose? Same concept as the pressure headcoller in that it acts when you need it, then pressure releases when she behaves, but without the trip to the tack shop.

    She tosses her head when excited, typical Arab really! So I've found the lead rope around the nose tends to slip or goes too low on her nose. Why I think a pressure headcollar may work better. Now I might get a nylon dog lead for cheap in a pet shop as I can clip it one side of the headcollar and run it over the nose and through the ring nearer to me it may work better, lead ropes are too bulky. I might try that actually!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭TG1


    She tosses her head when excited, typical Arab really! So I've found the lead rope around the nose tends to slip or goes too low on her nose. Why I think a pressure headcollar may work better. Now I might get a nylon dog lead for cheap in a pet shop as I can clip it one side of the headcollar and run it over the nose and through the ring nearer to me it may work better, lead ropes are too bulky. I might try that actually!

    I'd be wary of that, most dog leads are designed to hold a 20kg animal not a 600kg one!
    The pressure headcollar sounds like a great gadget, I've never used one though, how exactly do they work?
    I'm a bit astonished by the amount of people who are anti chifney, I think they're a great piece of equipment, and if used correctly, ie applying pressure release like you would with any bit, they aren't severe.
    They're only severe if you haul out of them, but a snaffle is severe in those circumstances......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    TG1 wrote:
    I'd be wary of that, most dog leads are designed to hold a 20kg animal not a 600kg one! The pressure headcollar sounds like a great gadget, I've never used one though, how exactly do they work? I'm a bit astonished by the amount of people who are anti chifney, I think they're a great piece of equipment, and if used correctly, ie applying pressure release like you would with any bit, they aren't severe. They're only severe if you haul out of them, but a snaffle is severe in those circumstances......


    Pressure collars work through an extra rope, similar to having the lead rope over the nose. It puts pressure of the less bony part of the nose. They work wonders on unruly horses and the automatically work on a pressure release system so actually teach a horse, even with a less experienced handler.
    I'm not anti chifney as such but they can do damage accidently so I'd personally limit their use to when it's really needed. It's like if a horse was dead to the leg and you go for big spurs straight away. Again, not bad if used correctly but still a higher risk of accidental over use and still unnecessary when smaller spurs would work fine. Chifneys are excellent for when they're needed but they're still a severe contraption.
    OP, I wonder if the charging off is similar to the charging off when mounting? It could be a similar solution as it seems the mare doesn't quite get the idea of not running off when she isn't supposed to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Jen Pigs Fly


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Pressure collars work through an extra rope, similar to having the lead rope over the nose. It puts pressure of the less bony part of the nose. They work wonders on unruly horses and the automatically work on a pressure release system so actually teach a horse, even with a less experienced handler.
    I'm not anti chifney as such but they can do damage accidently so I'd personally limit their use to when it's really needed. It's like if a horse was dead to the leg and you go for big spurs straight away. Again, not bad if used correctly but still a higher risk of accidental over use and still unnecessary when smaller spurs would work fine. Chifneys are excellent for when they're needed but they're still a severe contraption.
    OP, I wonder if the charging off is similar to the charging off when mounting? It could be a similar solution as it seems the mare doesn't quite get the idea of not running off when she isn't supposed to.

    See this is the thing, she's grand to lead before we get to the lane and after that lane! She doesn't rush off when mounting she stands like a good girl! I quite literally need something to try to back up my walk command when walking down the lane, if she walks calmly then the other horses don't get as excited, she sets them off by trotting and snorting at them even when they're at the back of the field! she just dislikes these horse and walls perfectly when they're all in! Then when they canter over to her she goes into fight mode! It's hard to explain to her that if she's calm they won't go near her! I think a pressure headcollar will work as once were past the gate to that lane she's calm again!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    She doesn't rush off when mounting she stands like a good girl!

    Ah yes, my apologies, wrong poster! I should have read your previous thread before posting that


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Jen Pigs Fly


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Ah yes, my apologies, wrong poster! I should have read your previous thread before posting that

    No problem at all! Spent weeks around 6 years ago teaching her not to gallop off as soon as you're in the saddle!! Habit I got her into as at the start when I first got her we were competiting a lot so we were all go, go, go! In the saddle and go! Now she will stand there, pop into the saddle, check everything, little pat and then walk! In a competition warm up arena she's still all go though!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭eorna


    Hi,
    I remember my mare is a cousin of your mare or something like that. Like you I wouldn't part with her for the world! I think a pressure halter might help alright. Also maybe you could try some natural horsemanship. I tried it when I couldn't ride and found it great. There's so much interesting things you can do from the ground. It really helps with your communication and relationship with your horse. I can now do liberty work with my mare - lunging without any rope, getting her to change direction and pace - it's a fantastic feeling! And now she respects me and responds much better from the ground. Give it a try - you'll get a real sense of achievement and progress even though you are not riding her. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Jen Pigs Fly


    Hello,

    I saw this pop up in my threads! Forgot all about it.

    In the end I did not bother getting a pressure halter or chifney bit. I just worked with her loads and she now leads like a dream. Can bring her in and out with a lead rope around her neck, she's back to her old self.

    Still very, very saddle sour and every time she's ridden her back goes out so I'm considering semi retiring her, no point pushing the mare to do something that causes her pain. She's become very sweet the last few weeks and can hardly get her out of her stable because she's cosy watching the cold and wet from a warm stable!

    She's brilliant at free lunging. She needs nothing special and know her walk, trot and canter, she know canter on or trot on means more speed and when I say relax she knows I mean to keep same pace but with less madness and easy means slow down. She will change direction when I tell her to turn. I go " ready .... Turn!" And off she goes on a dime, she loves it. When I say ready she watches waiting for when I say turn! It's a game with us. I can get her to do a very active canter to practically cantering on the spot using our relax and easy commands.

    Considering breeding her next spring to a connemara for my future riding horse. It's only a consideration however.

    Pic of my girl! She's a sweetheart when she's not being her usual opinionated self.
    B2F003B1-5A12-4F07-B2FE-87052BFC4347_zps2tfc2ixq.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭elusiveguy


    Would it be better to try get to the bottom of the back issue before you breed from her? Would be a pity to find out its something that could be passed on.

    Does her saddle fit etc? Do you do much to strengthen her back?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Jen Pigs Fly


    elusiveguy wrote: »
    Would it be better to try get to the bottom of the back issue before you breed from her? Would be a pity to find out its something that could be passed on.

    Does her saddle fit etc? Do you do much to strengthen her back?

    Planning on getting her X rayed to see if there's anything wrong that a chiro can't pick up. She's been bred three times before at a very young age so I wonder is her issues linked to a lot of trauma at a young age to her bones. Her tail was broken at some point during foaling. We found this out last winter when I got a new veterinary chiro out.

    Her saddle was professionally fitted, reflocked and tree was adjusted by Tom Berney himself around 5 months ago. Made no different to her kicking out while Being tacked up and pain the next day ....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭Ah_Yeah


    Her saddle was professionally fitted, reflocked and tree was adjusted by Tom Berney himself around 5 months ago. Made no different to her kicking out while Being tacked up and pain the next day ....

    Would definitely recommend the xrays. My mare was kicking out when being tacked up and went as far as biting me one day - that's when I knew something wasn't right as she is such a stoic, docile little horse. I suspected ulcers (have you scoped for these?!) and brought her to Troytown, but they insisted on xrays and we found both Kissing Spines and arthritis so advanced that the hock had already fused. She just got on with things and never made a fuss.

    Not at all trying to scare you here, more trying to show you the value that an xray can bring. She has had a corticosteroid injection in her back and hock and like a different horse - no girthyness, full of beans, and much happier in herself. We're now back doing everything we were before - jumping 90s, competing in dressage etc, and plan to event this year again.

    If you have insurance it makes life easier too :) If you don't, tell the vet and they will recommend what makes most sense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Jen Pigs Fly


    Ah_Yeah wrote: »
    Would definitely recommend the xrays. My mare was kicking out when being tacked up and went as far as biting me one day - that's when I knew something wasn't right as she is such a stoic, docile little horse. I suspected ulcers (have you scoped for these?!) and brought her to Troytown, but they insisted on xrays and we found both Kissing Spines and arthritis so advanced that the hock had already fused. She just got on with things and never made a fuss.

    Not at all trying to scare you here, more trying to show you the value that an xray can bring. She has had a corticosteroid injection in her back and hock and like a different horse - no girthyness, full of beans, and much happier in herself. We're now back doing everything we were before - jumping 90s, competing in dressage etc, and plan to event this year again.

    If you have insurance it makes life easier too :) If you don't, tell the vet and they will recommend what makes most sense.

    I know troytown well, would you mind pming me a rough idea as to what the X-rays cost? I'm definitely suspecting arthritis. However surely a chiropractor would pick up in kissing spines? I have considered it however ... If she does have kissing spines I will retire her, I won't go down injection route just as long as it's pain killers. She's 15, I have her 9 years she's done her career now, she's happy being a pet


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