hi all, need some help/info; my employer continually refuses to give me sufficient ad

Stephen Gawking

Hi, need some advice. My employer refuses to give me advance notification of my working hours on a daily basis & I usually have at most 7 hours between shifts. I have 2 young children who have a lot of special needs & associated medical appointments. This means that such appointments are difficult to plan to say the least.

When I raised this with my boss I was met with such hostility that it took me back. I was threatened with the sack, legal action, being sued etc that it left me scared to say the least. I'm on the books, there is a union who are worse than useless despite the fact that membership is mandatory & the HR dept. couldn't care less.

My question is what is the amount of time required between shifts (if any) & how much notification should I be given (if any) of what hours I'll be working the next day.

Thanks in advance.

Buona Fortuna

Hi OP

I think you'll have to add a little flesh to the bones if you want any advice to be useful.

GrayFox208

Your title should not be what you use to try explain what you're issue is.

Buona Fortuna

What does it say in your contract of employment?

GrayFox208

Stephen Gawking wrote: »

Hi, need some advice. My employer refuses to give me advance notification of my working hours on a daily basis & I usually have at most 7 hours between shifts. I have 2 young children who have a lot of special needs & associated medical appointments. This means that such appointments are difficult to plan to say the least.

When I raised this with my boss I was met with such hostility that it took me back. I was threatened with the sack, legal action, being sued etc that it left me scared to say the least. I'm on the books, there is a union who are worse than useless despite the fact that membership is mandatory & the HR dept. couldn't care less.

My question is what is the amount of time required between shifts (if any) & how much notification should I be given (if any) of what hours I'll be working the next day.

Thanks in advance.

Well first of all I am to believe he cannot sack you for needing proper notice when your children are in need of appointments regularly. He also can't sue you, that's ****e. What's he going to sue you for like? I'd just write to him telling him what you're asking for and just be firm but polite. I'd also be inclined to inform him at anymore threats of legal action that he's got no case against you. I could be dead wrong but I would be quite sure he can't sue you because you asked for some proper notice.

Stephen Gawking

Sorry Gray fox first time poster. I'll try flesh it out. I work shift for a well known company but I cannot identify them as I believe I'll be made redundant. I'll try give an example. I'm just finished an 8 hour 50 minute shift (finished 11:30pm) & I'm back in work in the morning at 6am. I learned this at 1:35pm this afternoon. I live roughly an hours drive from where I work but I get that's my problem not the employers. I will probably know at about 1-1:30pm tomorrow what hours ill be working for Wednesday & I could start work at anytime between 5am & 2pm & that's my early week. The late week is even worse. This is taking its toll on me & my family so any advice etc will be gratefully appreciated.

johnny osbourne

sorry but your boss is a dopey ****

Stephen Gawking

The contract was shown to me briefly when I started (almost 10 years ago) but I never got to sign it & I've never seen it since.

falan

I think it's 11 hours between shifts. Check out the working time act ireland.

Senna

the employer must notify the employee of the starting and finishing times at least 24 hours before the first day or the day of each week the employee is required to work.

(a) You are entitled to 11 consecutive hours rest in any period of 24 hours. In addition you should get 24 consecutive hours rest in any period of 7 days and this should normally follow on from one of the 11-hour rest periods already mentioned, or

(b) As an alternative your employer can give you two 24-hour rest periods in the week that follows one in which you did not get the entitlement described in (a) above.

Both from citizens advice website.

If you are paying for a union, I would make it their problem.

Stephen Gawking

Thank you for that Senna but the union do not want to know. They & the employer told me that they have an exemption from the work time act.

falan

Stephen Gawking wrote:

Thank you for that Senna but the union do not want to know. They & the employer told me that they have an exemption from the work time act.

Ring NERA (national employment rights agency). They'll tell you straight away

Nichard Dixon

Stephen Gawking wrote: »

Thank you for that Senna but the union do not want to know. They & the employer told me that they have an exemption from the work time act.

On what basis do they have an exemption? People like the Army do and in an emergency things can be done, but not as a pattern of work.

wmpdd3

Unless you signed yourself out side of the working time directive, then it still applies.

Is it retail?

Stephen Gawking

No Nichard Dixon I don't work for the defence forces, the gardai, emergency services or anything like that. I did ask the HR manager what basis this 'exemption' takes & he says that he has a long standing agreement with the unions to roster & notify staff in this manner so it supercedes the working time directive. I should also point out that my situation is the same for several hundred people within the company I work for (about 40% of staff) but not the bulk.

uck51js9zml2yt

Stephen Gawking wrote: »

No Nichard Dixon I don't work for the defence forces, the gardai, emergency services or anything like that. I did ask the HR manager what basis this 'exemption' takes & he says that he has a long standing agreement with the unions to roster & notify staff in this manner so it supercedes the working time directive. I should also point out that my situation is the same for several hundred people within the company I work for (about 40% of staff) but not the bulk.

Unions are subservient to the laws of the land. The working time directive is there for a purpose.
As suggeste, contact NERA
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/national_employment_rights_authority.html

Little CuChulainn

Can you be forced to join a union? It sounds like this particular union is an offshoot of management that negotiates on the staffs behalf without any actual mandate.

L1011

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Can you be forced to join a union? It sounds like this particular union is an offshoot of management that negotiates on the staffs behalf without any actual mandate.

Unless things have changed, closed shop requirements are legal here, but the reverse isn't (banning union membership, although until recently they could simply ignore the union entirely - collective bargaining has been since enshrined in legislation to some extent).

There are many cases of unions being utterly useless due to being overly cosy with management - Mandate in many retailers is one. Basically exists to get almost forced funding from low paid workers to piss down the drain on political campaigns entirely unconnected with their role.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

schemingbohemia

Get onto head office of the Union. Do none of your colleagues feel the same way? Seems outrageous that the Union will do nothing.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Paz-CCFC

Just a few things.

You can't be forced to join a trade union. Under the Bunreacht, we have an express right to associate and an implied, corresponding right to disassociate. In Educational Company v Fitzpatrick [1961] IR 345 and Meskell v CIÉ [1973] IR 121, the Supreme Court held that you can't force someone to join a trade union.

Under the Unfair Dismissals Act 1977, you cannot be dismissed for joining a union (section 6). It doesn't seem to say that it's unfair to dismiss for not joining a union, but I would think that it would include that due to the reasoning of the above cases. It wouldn't exactly vindicate your constitutional right to disassociate if you could be dismissed for that.

You have been with the company for ten years. That means that you have general rights against dismissal for no reason under the UDA. If they sack you, the onus is on them to prove that it was fair. If you bring them to court, then you just have to show that you were working for more than 12 months and that you were dismissed. Then it is presumed to be an unfair dismissal unless they can show proof of the contrary. Reasons which show fairness include poor performance, employee misconduct etc.

Any term of a contract which purports to exclude/limit this act is void (section 13). Likewise for the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 (section 37), except where the act allows it. I do not believe that the daily rest period (11 consecutive hours in every 24 hours, section 11) is one of those that can be excluded/limited.

They can make you redundant, but this must be done fairly. If an employer uses the redundancy as a cloak to get rid of someone they just don't like, then the courts look past this and see it for what it really is. In that case, it'd be viewed as an unfair dismissal.

First of all, I would strongly suggest that you seek the advice of an an employment law expert. Look around and see whom you can find. Many might give you the initial consultation at a discount/for free. The posts on here, including my own, might not be entirely factual. Say if you acted on the authority of a piece of law that I've explained but I've actually made a mistake, that could really damage your situation. An employment solicitor would know a lot more and if he/she were to make a mistake, you'd at least have some recourse against them. They'd also be aware of some of the intricacies relating to specific types of employment, that some of the posters have alluded to above.

I'd also suggest that you write down an account of every interaction you have with employers in relation to your situation. Short bullet points would do the trick, I think. This could turn out to be valuable evidence down the line. I'd also hold onto documents that show you've been in employment for the last few years at least, to show that you have general rights under the UDA. Things like emails/texts from a few years ago where you've been asked to come in for work, payslips etc. Since you don't have a copy of your contract, the employer might claim that you haven't been working with them long enough to have general unfair dismissal rights.

Best of luck with everything. Although there are always two sides to every story, from the information you've provided, it seems like you've been treated terribly and it's not something that should be acceptable.

BC Irl

Hi Stephen Gawking,
It sounds like a Zero-Hours Contract without them actually telling you that....but for your own records -
" an employer must provide all new employees with a written statement of the terms and conditions of their employment, within 2 months of them commencing employment or when an existing employee so requests he/she must be given a written statement within 2 months of that request." Terms of Employment (information) Act 1994 & 2001
Your employer is legally obliged to furnish you with your contract and on that it should detail what your contract type is, i.e. Permanent, full-time, Fixed -term, Zero-Hours contract, etc. you should then be able to move further with your enquiries but as the previous posters have mentioned, you should be keeping records of any correspondence, dates, times, emails, etc. and you should most certainly push this with your Union Rep. and or employment law specialist.
I hope you have your issue resolved promptly.

Carawaystick

I'd ask for a copy of your contract.
I'd ask the union for a copy of any standard terms they negotiated. These would supercede the contract terms.

If either refused, I'd make a data protection act request for copies of the data.

I'd contact NERA to find out the legal minimum rests and notice of working hours.

I'd keep a notebook of the time you worked, and the notice you got of when your next working day was.

Stephen Gawking

Thanks you all for your help. I have put in a request for my contract & within 24 hours I've been threatened with the sack. I've also heard on the grapevine that there's been a 'complaint' been made by a member of the public about a member of staff & my name is liked with it. The timing is suspect in my mind to say the least...

I have a feeling that I'm being set up for disciplinary procedures. I've never had any complaints before & I have a very good record so I'm wondering is this all worth pursuing or are my cards now marked regardless?

I can't really look for a new job (or I'd hope not to have to) as I'm not exactly a spring chicken. I don't work in retail or security although I have in the past. I'd love to name my employer & be done but I know I'd be instantly dismissed as people have gotten into trouble for posting stuff here & elsewhere (the journal, FB, Twitter etc) Haven't got the money to spare to speak to a legal professional & I'm awaiting NERA to get back to me. Believe it or not the bosses wife works almost next door to the citizens information bureau on O'Connell St & she knows well who I am so I'll have to go to one elsewhere.

Wish me luck.

BC Irl

Hi OP,

You cannot be sacked. Your employer has to go through procedures before you can be sacked and there has to be a reason for it. For example, if a customer did happen to make a compaliant about you, lets say, the employer would have to follow the company procedures, which would be in the company handbook, and have a meeting with you to find out what happened etc. only if the complaint was deemed as serious misconduct you cannot be fired, but even then you would need to know what the employer classes as serious misconduct....to know this you would need to have access to the company handbook at least. If there is a union involved with the company they have to be able to stand up for you. If you did happen to be fired, you can bring the employer to the Workplace relations and look for unfair dismissal, discrimination maybe. Just to let you know alot of employment law solicitors will work on a no-win no-fee basis and to be honest probably will not take the case on if they didn't feel it could be won. NERA are very good, just keep on top of them.

The_Minister

This forum's (very necessary) restrictions on legal advice are incredible irritating on threads like this, especially when one does employment law.

Make an appointment with FLAC to see one of their specialist employment law clinics.

percy212

Get a lawyer immediately. You are being set up for dismissal. Its called "constructive dismissal". and your company will pay through the nose for trying it on. Good luck.

The_Minister

percy212 wrote: »

Get a lawyer immediately. You are being set up for dismissal. Its called "constructive dismissal". and your company will pay through the nose for trying it on. Good luck.

...that's not what constructive dismissal is.

percy212

Please, enlighten us then....it would be a help to the OP to provide your in depth knowledge, rather than insult other posters.

Serjeant Buzfuz

percy212 wrote: »

Get a lawyer immediately. You are being set up for dismissal. Its called "constructive dismissal". and your company will pay through the nose for trying it on. Good luck.

Constructive dismissal is the employer treating you so unreasonably you are forced to resign. This situation here looks like the boss setting up an excuse to fire you. You need to get advice from a specialist solicitor, most will talk to you initially for a fee that doesn't break the bank, just phone up and check what it costs first.
The new WRC is supposed to speed up claims, so even if you're fired you could have a quick decision. Any solicitor who knows employment law will fillet this crowd

The_Minister

percy212 wrote: »

Please, enlighten us then....it would be a help to the OP to provide your in depth knowledge, rather than insult other posters.

Constructive dismissal is where conditions become so intolerable that the employee is forced to resign - if an employer fires you, even on sham grounds, it is not constructive dismissal.

And I'm not insulting other posters so much as highlight that most people (not just yourself) on this thread have only a vague idea what they're talking about.

percy212

Wanker

Little CuChulainn

percy212 wrote: »

Wanker

Good argument.

rock22

You mentioned that you are a member of a trade union but you feel they have been unhelpful.

A trade union does not operate as a single entity. If you are only dealing with your local shop steward and he/she is being unsupportive then you must escalate this to a local , regional or national officer. Your union should also have a procedure to deal with issues or bad representation. You have already paid for membership and you should demand a proper service from them.

Generally, trade unions are not only experts in the area of employment law but they are often well aware of problems with certain employers and ca act accordingly.

I would advise you act promptly .

Serjeant Buzfuz

rock22 wrote: »

You mentioned that you are a member of a trade union but you feel they have been unhelpful.

A trade union does not operate as a single entity. If you are only dealing with your local shop steward and he/she is being unsupportive then you must escalate this to a local , regional or national officer. Your union should also have a procedure to deal with issues or bad representation. You have already paid for membership and you should demand a proper service from them.

Generally, trade unions are not only experts in the area of employment law but they are often well aware of problems with certain employers and ca act accordingly.

I would advise you act promptly .

Unions are very good but sometimes fall down in dealing with the individual rather than the collective.
They also tend not to want to admit local organisation is deficient.

hullaballoo

Moderator: percy212 has been banned for a week.

RustyNut

Some tesco/stobart employes had a similar problem to you OP. This is how they dealt with it.

percy212

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Good argument.

Wanker

percy212

I hope you got it all sorted out OP. Just get a lawyer. It will be a lot easier than dealing with the upright citizens on this thread.

FreudianSlippers

Moderator: percy212 has been banned for two weeks and retrospectively red-carded.

esforum

Stephen Gawking wrote: »

Thank you for that Senna but the union do not want to know. They & the employer told me that they have an exemption from the work time act.

no such thing. Thus the new Garda roster was brought in as no company can exempt from the WTA.

Whats happening is illegal, your entitled to 11 hours planned rest periods. Now, in the Gardai / fire / etc theres an exemption due to them being an emergency service that states due to extingincies of the service or unforseen events you can be ordered to work on an claim the hours back.

Your company is not an emergency service, keep a diary or everything that happens including conversation with the union. Go to head office if nothing happens or HRM. Chances are your manager is just a bully pure and simple and wont be able to handle staff defending themselves or going above his head (Most cases like this are brown nosing incompetant managers as opposed to company policy)

Now, theres a little sticky situation here, I have seen and heard people recording conversations on their phones and its been accepted but it could be a breach of internal policy and privacy laws depending on where the conversation takes place. On a shop floor for example is a public place and theres no expectation of privacy. In the managers office? Stickier ground completely however in my (limited) experience a company thats caught by the balls on tape is much more likely to accomodate you than chance that tape making it to a judge or media. They have a reputation to protect at the end of the day.

nuac

In most reasonably sized towns there are solicitors who deal a lot with employment law related matters.

Ask around. E.g court staff would know what offices do this work, likewise journalists.

Even if funds are short, you should get a solicitor. The employer is bullying you

If called in to an interview relating to these issues, bring a witness.

RainyDay

rock22 wrote: »

You mentioned that you are a member of a trade union but you feel they have been unhelpful.

A trade union does not operate as a single entity. If you are only dealing with your local shop steward and he/she is being unsupportive then you must escalate this to a local , regional or national officer. Your union should also have a procedure to deal with issues or bad representation. You have already paid for membership and you should demand a proper service from them.

Generally, trade unions are not only experts in the area of employment law but they are often well aware of problems with certain employers and ca act accordingly.

I would advise you act promptly .

Unions are also generally democratic organisations. Go along to your next union meeting, and make a fuss. If there hasn't been a meeting for a while, push for one to get scheduled. If they won't schedule one, get on to union head office for details of the branch rules/constitution.

Dixie Chick

The hardest part in these situations is that this oppressive kind of management usually have the workers feeling like its the 1950s and they have no rights. They are afraid to come forward and stand up for themselves.

It sounds like a big organisation in that is has a union and a HR department so your manager should be complained for being so hostile when you brought to his attention

Also, the trade union simply CANNOT be uninterested.
Lastly, they obviously know that you asking for your contract is you standing up for yourself so these bully tactics about a complaint etc are just that, a tactic.

Sounds like a horrible place, but its your job, I agree with the others , get legal advice as it sounds like it could get messy.

Stephen Gawking

I'm truly grateful for all the advice & assistance. I really appreciate it. However, the suggestions relating to the union are a no go for reasons I cannot go into just yet as they're a well known outfit. I do not believe they have my best interests in mind as they advised me to drop it (off the record mind you). I'm told I can take a case to the Workplace relations commission but I haven't a bulls notion of how to do so.

However I have made my mind up & I'm going to do just that. Hopefully this can be resolved. Hope to update soon.