Portugal: No left wing Gov allowed in Europe?

20Cent

Portugal’s president, has refused to appoint a Left-wing coalition government despite them winning a majority of the seats. He stated that "Democracy must take second place to the higher imperative of euro rules and membership".

The left wing majority are proposing a vote of no confidence which they will win.
We saw what happened to Syriza in Greece I think this is far worse stopping an anti-austerity government even after they win the election. This is a very serious crisis for the EU. Which is more important democracy or euro rules?

I think democracy.

Count Dooku

EU über alles
From today news
Moldovan opposition leader arrested over exposing corruption in pro-EU Government
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/23/us-moldova-corruption-arrest-idUSKCN0SH21920151023
Police used tear gas to dispose protesters against corrupted, but pro-EU Montenegro’s government
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/24/us-montenegro-protests-idUSKCN0SI0TN20151024

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

Portugal’s president, has refused to appoint a Left-wing coalition government despite them winning a majority of the seats. He stated that "Democracy must take second place to the higher imperative of euro rules and membership".

The left wing majority are proposing a vote of no confidence which they will win.
We saw what happened to Syriza in Greece I think this is far worse stopping an anti-austerity government even after they win the election. This is a very serious crisis for the EU. Which is more important democracy or euro rules?

I think democracy.

Nothing to do with the EU, just internal Portuguese politics. President doesn't like who won the election, so is using EU as an excuse.

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

EU über alles
From today news
Moldovan opposition leader arrested over exposing corruption in pro-EU Government
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/23/us-moldova-corruption-arrest-idUSKCN0SH21920151023
Police used tear gas to dispose protesters against corrupted, but pro-EU Montenegro’s government
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/24/us-montenegro-protests-idUSKCN0SI0TN20151024

So, its the EU's fault there are bogey politicians in non-EU countries?

Moronic

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

So, its the EU's fault there are bogey politicians in non-EU countries?

Moronic

Arrested retuning from the Kremlin seem awfully familiar doesn't it ,must have been asking for a special intervention from vladi

20Cent

Godge wrote: »

Nothing to do with the EU, just internal Portuguese politics. President doesn't like who won the election, so is using EU as an excuse.

Portugal is in the EU. An EU country is ignoring the democratic mandate of it's people. Cause for concern surely?

BoJack Horseman

20Cent wrote: »

Portugal is in the EU. An EU country is ignoring the democratic mandate of it's people. Cause for concern surely?

Your implication is that this is somehow the fault of the EU.

This is false.

Substitute "EU" for "UN" and reconsider if your blame attempt still seems so clever?

Buford T. Justice XIX

20Cent wrote: »

Portugal is in the EU. An EU country is ignoring the democratic mandate of it's people. Cause for concern surely?

It's not the first time something like this has happened. Didn't Ireland have to have a second vote on the same referendum because we didn't get the result 'right' the first time?

20Cent

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It's not the first time something like this has happened. Didn't Ireland have to have a second vote on the same referendum because we didn't get the result 'right' the first time?

Not with a general election.

Imagine if an FG/FF coalition had 51% of the vote but President Higgins refuses to allow them to form a government inviting another party to do so.

20Cent

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Your implication is that this is somehow the fault of the EU.

This is false.

Substitute "EU" for "UN" and reconsider if your blame attempt still seems so clever?

You're the one making the implications never blamed the EU just quoted the president of Portugal.

aliveandkicking

Can anyone tell me what is supposedly wrong with the President of a country asking the leader of the party with the most amount of seats to form a government?

Jim2007

20Cent wrote: »

Portugal is in the EU. An EU country is ignoring the democratic mandate of it's people. Cause for concern surely?

Whatever the comments of their president, the will of the people is not being ignored! The process is clear the party with the winning the majority of seats gets the first opportunity to form a government. Presumable they will fail and then the Left will get it's opportunity to do so.

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It's not the first time something like this has happened. Didn't Ireland have to have a second vote on the same referendum because we didn't get the result 'right' the first time?

No not the case, but don't let the facts interfere with your opinion!

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what is supposedly wrong with the President of a country asking the leader of the party with the most amount of seats to form a government?

Nothing, but some people prefer to rely on the sound bites from the Left rather than seek the facts.

Shurimgreat

Syriza's antics cost the Greek economy billions and they ended up with a far worse deal than the previous government wanted to sign up for.

The quicker governments accept there is no genuine alternative to austerity within the framework of the EU the better.

Now governments and countries are free to leave the EU, and try another approach such as default, print money, devalue, etc but its not really a great option.

I guess many countries, Ireland included joined the EU and especially the Euro without bothering to read some of the fine print or understand the need to live within your means.

BoJack Horseman

20Cent wrote: »

You're the one making the implications.

You chose the thread title to say "no left wing government allowed in Europe".

Your implication is very obvious, as well as being obviously an error in that it was a Portuguese election, not a European one.... you chose to ignore the may left wing governments across the continent.

20Cent

The left wing coalition will hold a vote of no confidence and win.
The president will either have to endorse the left wing government or have a constitutional crisis. Judging from his comments he could well refuse.

20Cent

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You chose the thread title to say "no left wing government allowed in Europe".

Your implication is very obvious, as well as being obviously an error in that it was a Portuguese election, not a European one.... you chose to ignore the may left wing governments across the continent.

Haven't said anywhere that it is an order from the EU or that the EU is imposing anything just quoting the president of Portugal but what would he know.

johnnyskeleton

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what is supposedly wrong with the President of a country asking the leader of the party with the most amount of seats to form a government?

Nothing. Also it may be the case where there is no majority party the custom is to ask the incumbent PM if he can form a government first. I think this may also be a custom in the UK as well.

The problem comes from the Presidents comments that suggested hse wouldnt stand over a socialist led government. But he may have to.

Also, the president himself is democratically elected as a form of checks and balances with a new presidential election next year.

Dont know if they have a system like in Ireland to impeach a President to fails to fulfil his duties. I would imagine they do.

I suspect this is all a bit overblown and will be resolved fairly quickly.

Lockstep

The president is acting entirely constitutionally: the conservative PaF won a plurality of seats, therefore they get the first chance to form a government, even though they don't have a majority. This is exactly what happened in 2009 when the left wing PS formed a government.

This is nothing to do with the EU.

hatrickpatrick

Lockstep wrote: »

This is nothing to do with the EU.

...Except that the president explicitly cited the EU as one of his reasons for doing this.

Lockstep

Sounds like political cover to me: PaF won the most seats, therefore they have first shot at forming a new government.
If you read his speech in full he also says the following

I had in mind that in the 40 years of Portuguese democracy the responsibility to constitute a Government was always attributed to the winner of the elections. This has occurred in all the general elections in which the winning political faction did not obtain a parliamentary majority, such as happened in 2009, in which the Socialist Party was the most voted, electing only 97 Members of Parliament, and the remaining political factions not hindering their coming into office.
[...]
However, the appointment of the Prime Minister by the President of the Republic does no finalize the process of forming a Government. The final decision belongs to Parliament or, more precisely, to the Members of Parliament.

The rejection of the Government Programme, by an absolute majority of Members of Parliament, implies its resignation.

The EU did nothing here. As usual in Portuguese elections, the president invited the party with the most seats to form a government.They can then be rejected by Portugal's parliament and can form a new government. The president will not stop this.

Full Marx

Godge wrote: »

Nothing to do with the EU, just internal Portuguese politics. President doesn't like who won the election, so is using EU as an excuse.

He is using the demands of the EU ("euro rules and membership") as a justification for what he has done. Thus the EU are involved whether they like it or not and should denounce what has happened.

The Corinthian

20Cent wrote: »

Portugal is in the EU. An EU country is ignoring the democratic mandate of it's people. Cause for concern surely?

It's pretty clear from your OP that you're attempting to turn what is an internal political matter in Portugal into something that the EU is to blame for, somehow. Please have the courtesy to assume that people as not complete morons and try to choose your propaganda with a little more competence.

Quin_Dub

There are 2 elements to this..

Firstly - I don't think that the President has done anything wrong in the slightest in terms of offering the incumbent the 1st crack at forming a government - That's how it's supposed to work - He gives the biggest party 1st go and a deadline , if they fail to deliver a working majority (or working minority) then you move on to the next largest party and so on..

Pre-Election pacts etc. are irrelevant at this point - It goes Largest to smallest single party in terms of order of the offer to form a government.

Now - The President is supposed to be above party politics , so his statements about the potential Left-wing coalition are at the very least impolitic and at worst a pre-cursor to a constitutional crisis..

If the current government aren't able to pull together sufficient support it is at that point that Portugal potentially has a problem.. If the President refuses to either offer the opportunity to or refuses to accept the Left grouping as a viable government , that is a huge problem..

He can't legally prevent it - He might not like it , he might think it's a terrible idea etc. but unless he can produce some legal/constitutional argument to support his position then he just has to suck it up and get on with it.

Shurimgreat

In defence of some posters on here, the Portuguese president came out on national TV saying he was refusing to allow the election winner form a government as he didn't think it was in the best interests of Portugal. The political party wanted to tear up agreements with the Troika etc, and put an end to austerity and so on. They sound like the Syriza of Portugal and we all know how that turned out. Sounds like a reasonably responsible president. And the choice in Europe today is EU & Austerity or no EU and no austerity.

RobertKK

Portuguese president seems like a sensible man.

View

Lockstep wrote: »

If you read his speech in full

Reading his speech, he doesn't appear to have said what the OP claimed he said.

hatrickpatrick

View wrote: »

Reading his speech, he doesn't appear to have said what the OP claimed he said.

Really?

I also had in mind that the European Union is one of the Country’s strategic options. This option was essential for the consolidation of the Portuguese democratic regime and continues to be one of the pillars of our democracy and of the model of society in which the Portuguese wish to live, a developed, and fair and solidarity guided society.

The observance of the commitments assumed within the framework of the Euro Zone is decisive, is totally crucial for the financing of our economy and, consequently, for economic growth and job creation.

Outside the European Union Portugal’s future would be catastrophic.

In 40 years of democracy, the Portuguese governments never depended from anti-European political factions, that is, of the political factions which, in the electoral manifestos with which they presented themselves to the Portuguese, defended the repeal of the Lisbon Treaty, of the Budgetary Treaty, of the Banking Union and of the Pact of Stability and Growth, as well as the dismantlement of the Economic and Monetary Union and Portugal’s exit from the Euro, and, still further, the dismemberment of NATO, of which Portugal is a founder member.

This is the worst moment to radically change the bases of our democratic regime, in a fashion which doesn’t even correspond to the democratic will expressed by the Portuguese in the elections held on 4 October.

Seems pretty unequivocally "I don't want to see certain ideologies in government" to me.

oscarBravo

20Cent wrote: »

He stated that "Democracy must take second place to the higher imperative of euro rules and membership".

View wrote: »

Reading his speech, he doesn't appear to have said what the OP claimed he said.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Really?

I also had in mind that the European Union is one of the Country’s strategic options. This option was essential for the consolidation of the Portuguese democratic regime and continues to be one of the pillars of our democracy and of the model of society in which the Portuguese wish to live, a developed, and fair and solidarity guided society.

The observance of the commitments assumed within the framework of the Euro Zone is decisive, is totally crucial for the financing of our economy and, consequently, for economic growth and job creation.

Outside the European Union Portugal’s future would be catastrophic.

In 40 years of democracy, the Portuguese governments never depended from anti-European political factions, that is, of the political factions which, in the electoral manifestos with which they presented themselves to the Portuguese, defended the repeal of the Lisbon Treaty, of the Budgetary Treaty, of the Banking Union and of the Pact of Stability and Growth, as well as the dismantlement of the Economic and Monetary Union and Portugal’s exit from the Euro, and, still further, the dismemberment of NATO, of which Portugal is a founder member.

This is the worst moment to radically change the bases of our democratic regime, in a fashion which doesn’t even correspond to the democratic will expressed by the Portuguese in the elections held on 4 October.

Really.

Seems pretty unequivocally "I don't want to see certain ideologies in government" to me.

It may well seem that way to you, but he still didn't say what the OP said he said.

hatrickpatrick

oscarBravo wrote: »

Really.

It may well seem that way to you, but he still didn't say what the OP said he said.

Well then in your own words, what did he say? In his own words, he doesn't want them to form a government because of their ideology and the policies they would pursue.

flutered

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Syriza's antics cost the Greek economy billions and they ended up with a far worse deal than the previous government wanted to sign up for.

The quicker governments accept there is no genuine alternative to austerity within the framework of the EU the better.

Now governments and countries are free to leave the EU, and try another approach such as default, print money, devalue, etc but its not really a great option.

I guess many countries, Ireland included joined the EU and especially the Euro without bothering to read some of the fine print or understand the need to live within your means.

but the germans made 100m by saying do it our way

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Well then in your own words, what did he say? In his own words, he doesn't want them to form a government because of their ideology and the policies they would pursue.

He didn't that nor did he say your previous comment comment either.

If you read what he actually said - as opposed to what you want him to have said - he clearly states that the convention in Portugal is that the largest party gets to try to form the government. That is the convention he has followed in appointing the PM. He also states it is now up to MPs to either accept that convention or reject it as they so choose.

View

flutered wrote: »

but the germans made 100m by saying do it our way

Given that neither Ireleand nor Portugal, much less Greece, has repaid the monies loaned to them by the EFSM and the EFSF/ESM, no one can be said to have "made" anything on those loans since even one default on any of them leaves the other member states - as loan guarantors - facing large bills to repay them.

hatrickpatrick

View wrote: »

He didn't that nor did he say your previous comment comment either.

If you read what he actually said - as opposed to what you want him to have said - he clearly states that the convention in Portugal is that the largest party gets to try to form the government. That is the convention he has followed in appointing the PM. He also states it is now up to MPs to either accept that convention or reject it as they so choose.

Did you even read the part of his comment that I quoted?

Once again (with added emphasis this time):

I also had in mind that the European Union is one of the Country’s strategic options. This option was essential for the consolidation of the Portuguese democratic regime and continues to be one of the pillars of our democracy and of the model of society in which the Portuguese wish to live, a developed, and fair and solidarity guided society.

The observance of the commitments assumed within the framework of the Euro Zone is decisive, is totally crucial for the financing of our economy and, consequently, for economic growth and job creation.

Outside the European Union Portugal’s future would be catastrophic.

In 40 years of democracy, the Portuguese governments never depended from anti-European political factions, that is, of the political factions which, in the electoral manifestos with which they presented themselves to the Portuguese, defended the repeal of the Lisbon Treaty, of the Budgetary Treaty, of the Banking Union and of the Pact of Stability and Growth, as well as the dismantlement of the Economic and Monetary Union and Portugal’s exit from the Euro, and, still further, the dismemberment of NATO, of which Portugal is a founder member.

This is the worst moment to radically change the bases of our democratic regime, in a fashion which doesn’t even correspond to the democratic will expressed by the Portuguese in the elections held on 4 October.

Is that not a very clear, unadulterated attack on Portugal's left? Is that not the president effectively saying "I don't want to see these guys in power"?

If further elections are held and the left wins a big enough proportion to get first dibs on calling a government, do you think the president will accept this government warmly or grudgingly? He's very, very clearly stepping into political territory there. If Michael D were to go on a similar rant about right wing parties in Ireland, there would be absolute uproar from the pro establishment posters on this very forum, including yourself.

aliveandkicking

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Did you even read the part of his comment that I quoted?

Once again (with added emphasis this time):



Is that not a very clear, unadulterated attack on Portugal's left? Is that not the president effectively saying "I don't want to see these guys in power"?

If further elections are held and the left wins a big enough proportion to get first dibs on calling a government, do you think the president will accept this government warmly or grudgingly? He's very, very clearly stepping into political territory there. If Michael D were to go on a similar rant about right wing parties in Ireland, there would be absolute uproar from the pro establishment posters on this very forum, including yourself.

Your problem is you are equating the role of the Irish President with that of the Portuguese President. The Irish President is purely ceremonial and stays out of politics. The Portuguese President is more political. In 2004 the then President of Portugal unilaterally dissolved parliament thus collasping a government that still had the backing of the majority of MPs.

Complaining that the Portuguese President should stay out of politics shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the office.

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Did you even read the part of his comment that I quoted?

Once again (with added emphasis this time):



Is that not a very clear, unadulterated attack on Portugal's left? Is that not the president effectively saying "I don't want to see these guys in power"?

No it is not. The main Portugese socialist party is strongly pro-EU. It is a legitimate criticism of the hard left fringe parties they want to cobble a government together with.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If further elections are held and the left wins a big enough proportion to get first dibs on calling a government, do you think the president will accept this government warmly or grudgingly?

Based on his citing of their convention, he should have little problem with nominating a member of the socialist party to be prime minister.

In case you missed it, they just had an election and their socialist party tried and FAILED to become the largest party.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

He's very, very clearly stepping into political territory there. If Michael D were to go on a similar rant about right wing parties in Ireland, there would be absolute uproar from the pro establishment posters on this very forum, including yourself.

The Portugese have a semi-Presidential system (like France). Their President has a direct mandate from the electorate which parliamentary elections don't trump. Their President has extensive powers which he is free to use as he chooses.

And, for the record, I would regard it as perfectly acceptable if our President made a speech directly challenging Sinn Fein suitability to hold government office here as it is unclear, with the reported continuing existence of the IRA's Army Council, whether their loyalty is to our constitution and the people of Ireland or to the unelected, shadowy figures on the Army Council who presided over an undemocratic murderous campaign which resulted in human rights abuses for many people here over many decades.

jimmycrackcorm

hatrickpatrick wrote:

Is that not a very clear, unadulterated attack on Portugal's left? Is that not the president effectively saying "I don't want to see these guys in power"?

Maybe he was saying that he thinks it would be a good idea if their atms were able to give more than eur60...

feargale

Jim2007 wrote: »

No not the case, but don't let the facts interfere with your opinion!

You are technically correct if we accept that a little tampering at the edges constitutes a different question.
Of more relevant concern is the propensity of Irish governments to use public money to sway the electorate, blatantly once upon a time, but with a semblance of sublety since the courts got involved in the issue. This will stop only when somebody goes to the courts and asks to have the culprit(s) made personally liable for the cost incurred to the taxpayer. If this goes unpunished re referendums what is to prevent a government resorting to the same abuse in a general election?