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5 Billion down the drain

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  • 24-10-2015 1:39am
    #1
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭


    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1023/737027-nama-project-arrow/



    Fianna Fail wouldn't even dream of pulling this one off.

    Why sell in one massive portfolio?
    Why sell now when the economy is on the up?

    Surely the government will see that this is political poison and force NAMA to hold off on this sale.

    7 pm on a bank holiday Friday, nice time to release the story.


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    #2
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Why do you assume these properties will be worth more in a few years? People made the assumption before and look where that got us.

    Some quotes from the article:

    NAMA chairman Frank Daly said in a statement, adding that just 2.5% of the loans are performing.

    There has been a significant deterioration in the value of these assets since acquisition.

    Around 43% of the assets, by value, are residential properties, the majority of which are currently let or occupied. Many of the units are in locations where there is limited housing demand.

    Doesn't exactly scream out that these are properties in high demand areas or prime office space does it?

    The economy is on the up in certain parts of the country. Lots of areas aren't improving and lots are declining. If this lot contains a lot of properties in rural areas where the local economy is stagnant or declining and the local population is declining then waiting could result in the price having to be reduced further due to the underlining assets being worth less. Not to mention the properties that aren't occupied could deteriorate due to lack of maintenance or vandalism and theft.


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    #3
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Fianna Fail wouldn't even dream of pulling this one off.
    FF aren't in charge of discharging assets.... so FF's fever-dreams are irrelevant.
    Why sell in one massive portfolio?
    The alternative was 1,900+ sales..... who in gods name would want that!
    Why sell now when the economy is on the up?
    Cos that's when you sell!
    Surely the government will see that this is political poison and force NAMA to hold off on this sale.
    On the contrary... discharging toxic loans is exactly what NAMA's job is.
    I'm certain that the people would prefer not to be holding onto junk, for no good reason.

    I do absolutely want NAMA to disclose the sale price though.
    I think that is important.

    However, If they got in excess of €1bn, I'd consider it a good job.

    The article mentions that the better assets of the original portfolio were sold seperately before the remaining "arrow" portfolio was sold to Cerberus..... I assume the rest were all but junk.

    Banks in Ireland have sold off loan books for less thank this.


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    #4
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Dob74 wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1023/737027-nama-project-arrow/



    Fianna Fail wouldn't even dream of pulling this one off.

    Why sell in one massive portfolio?
    Why sell now when the economy is on the up?

    Surely the government will see that this is political poison and force NAMA to hold off on this sale.

    7 pm on a bank holiday Friday, nice time to release the story.

    before it gets brought up - there are some people who believe that they were intentionally packaged this large so that only so called 'vulture funds' from outside the state could afford to purchase them.

    this information is incorrect , goes against common sense and gives far too much credit to the 'shadowy backdoor politics' some people incorrectly believe go on.


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    #5
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Eric Cartman wrote:
    before it gets brought up - there are some people who believe that they were intentionally packaged this large so that only so called 'vulture funds' from outside the state could afford to purchase them.

    Eric Cartman wrote:
    this information is incorrect , goes against common sense and gives far too much credit to the 'shadowy backdoor politics' some people incorrectly believe go on.


    Of course, such good advice is worth 7 million in a off shore account I would say.


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    #6
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Of course, such good advice is worth 7 million in a off shore account I would say.

    Its very very obvious that any organisation would prefer to offload 1,900 junk-assets in one sale rather than repeating the process 1,900 times!

    I'm very happy that a company is willing to take billions of non-performing loans against undesirable assets off the Irish taxpayer.
    Better them than us.


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    #7
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    BoJack Horseman wrote:
    I'm very happy that a company is willing to take billions of non-performing loans against undesirable assets off the Irish taxpayer. Better them than us.


    And how do we know they are not performing? I have not doubt there are some complete pieces of junk. But when the likes of Westport House can be taken out of the portfolio(in endas constituency). Who knows what's in it.

    There is an empty housing estate near me. A nice suburban area. None of the units are for sale or even rented. The rumor is that this is also included. It has been pegged as a non performing loan but it clearly has been run into the ground on purpose. I am sure cerberus can sell it back to the current owner. Both of whom profit at taxpayer expense.

    No transparency means no proper oversight. Sick of paying for corporate welfare.


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    #8
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Dob74 wrote: »
    And how do we know they are not performing?
    The article stated so... it also stated that the better performing components were sold separately before the rest were off-loaded to Cerberus as one lot.

    Suffice to say, when the better performing components of a poor performing portfolio are separated & sold, the rest aint up to much, hence the large write down.

    Now, if you can doubt the article, you will have a mountain of work providing proof that much of the 1,900 assets are actually repaying without problem.
    The rumor....
    Don't worry about it then.
    No transparency means no proper oversight.
    I absolutely agree.
    And sadly much of how NAMA was founded (look up "special purpose vehicle") intentionally clouds it in secrecy, which I oppose.

    However, at the end of the day, it's better for the taxpayer that what money can be recouped, is.
    Your supposition that "€5bn down the drain" holds no water, that figure was never taken from the taxpayer in the first place.


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    #9
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    BoJack Horseman wrote:
    Now, if you can doubt the article, you will have a mountain of work providing proof that much of the 1,900 assets are actually repaying without problem.


    The only thing known for sure is cerberus where willing to pay 7 million back hander for the northern ireland portfolio. Must states would exclude them from any bidding process. Sadly we are the best state to do funny business.
    I wish I had your blind faith in our senior politicians and senior civil servants. But this is a lot of money to be dealing with. To have no information made public. I am someone who expects the worse from my betters.


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    #10
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Off topic but why would you use Cerberus as a company name?

    "We at Cerberus Capitol feel that naming ourselves after the giant monstrous three headed dog that guards the gates of hell and eats those that have committed the sin of gluttony reflects our professional values in a fast paced modern business environment"


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    #11
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Dob74 wrote: »
    And how do we know they are not performing?

    'Cause if they were, they'd be no reason to sell them now would there...
    Dob74 wrote: »
    No transparency means no proper oversight. Sick of paying for corporate welfare.

    That is what the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is for. NAMA is under their oversight just like other state bodies.


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    #12
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Dob74 wrote: »
    The only thing known for sure is cerberus where willing to pay 7 million back hander for the northern ireland portfolio. Must states would exclude them from any bidding process. Sadly we are the best state to do funny business.

    Do you know this for a fact (and if so provide a link) or are you relying on Mick Wallace the man whom we know today has a €2m self serving interest in casting doubts on Cerberus?


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    #13
    sonny.knowles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 607 ✭✭✭sonny.knowles


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Of course, such good advice is worth 7 million in a off shore account I would say.

    FYI, you Might want to take Mick 'Scarecrow' Wallaces and his claims with a pinch (or indeed mountain) of salt.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/mick-wallace-confirms-2m-cerberus-demand-1.2405514

    He has his own not so altruistic reasons for attacking Nama and Cerberus.


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    #14
    edanto
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    Or you could look at that news story as Cerberus trying to make Wallace bankrupt and thus get him out of the D il.

    I'd be the first to point the finger at Wallace and blame him for f*ck!ng over his workers and their pension revenue/contributions, but I don't think that history means that everything that he says are lies.

    Without the whistleblower stories that Wallace brought up in the D il, we wouldn't know about the suspicious payment relating to the Northern Ireland deal.

    I think the OP is on the right track here; the timing of this announcement in the news cycle was designed to bury the story, and it seems like NAMA is on an accelerated wind-down to allow FG play the 'cleaned up the mess' card in the GE.

    I don't trust NAMA, plain and simple. It's sickening to go past that building and consider the role the location played in both gaining our freedom, and arguably, losing it again.


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