Draconian mortgage documentation requirements - impossible for non-resident

loznduff

Hi,

I am an ex-pat living and working in the USA and looking to get a mortgage for a BTL property in my home town in Ireland. After meeting with a mortgage representative at PermanentTSB (one of the few banks that will lend to non-residents) I am concerned that it will be impossible for me to meet the documentation requirements - not because I do not have bank statements, tax returns, pay statements etc. BUT because I am told that I would need to provide "original documents" - bank statements, tax return, pay statements and a letter from my employer stating salary and job title "stamped". Original documents means documents that are sent in the post.

My banking, tax returns and pay statements are all done online AND my company does not use a "stamp" - nor letterhead as they also do most business electronically. This is the norm in the 21st century. However - I learned today that printed statements cannot be trusted - so they are not acceptable.

Getting a document notarised is problematic too. In the US a notary can only witness a signature - they cannot verify the veracity of a document nor will they stamp the document for which they witnessed the signature.

It seems reasonable that a bank that is open to lending to non-residents might have have documentation requirements that can actually be met by that non-resident. For example - in the US - an individuals credit history is monitored constantly by credit reporting agencies (Experian, Equifax, TransUnion) and therefore it's enough to reliably verify the credit worthiness of that individual by running a credit report.

I'd appreciate hearing from any non-residents that have managed to get through the mortgage process.


Jimmy

ted1

<quote snipped>

Most companies do have a stamp actually I think it's a legal requirement for filing tax returns, ask your company secretary. To stamp the statements etc.

TheDriver

I submitted print outs from online accounts and there was no issue, like payslips were printed out however salary cert did come from finance/hr

MarkAnthony

loznduff wrote: »

This is the norm in the 21st century.

The legal profession prefers tried and tested. Super, dooper, new and shiney is all well and good. Old and we know it works for paddy property investors taking a punt is much better.

I don't know about the US but even the snobbiest of the snobby, ooh look at us IT companies in Ireland would have a company stamp and letterhead. Not having a stamp is one thing, no letterhead is pretty unprofessional.

witchgirl26

I'm sure your company does have a letterhead. It may not be in common use for emails etc but for more official documents like contracts.

I think what might be happening is down to some of the less precise measures that happened with lending to non-residents during the boom time. There's also much stricter regulations on just ordinary residents so I think that's adding on to the requirements too.

As regards the credit-worthiness. While it might represent credit-worthiness in the US, those measures may not stack up to what's required here which is probably why they're not relying on them.

I think have a chat to the bank and see if they'll accept print outs from the bank and tax authorities. I know previously one issue with AIB ones here was that it didn't show your address and some other required details on the printouts you do yourself from the online system. This has been changed so maybe show them an example and see does it meet their needs.

April 73

I printed bank statements, pay slips & a salary certificate myself on the home printer & it was enough for KBC earlier this year.
i would imagine that living outside the country may need some extra info/safeguards by the bank as persuing a defaulter would be difficult.
Banks will print statements if you go into the branch. Contact your HR dept & ask about an official salary cert. You can't be the first person to ask for it.

loznduff

Thanks everybody for the replies.

To clarify a few points - I have already spoken to a bank and provided printed statements for all of their requests. These were not acceptable because "they are not originals".

Regarding company letterhead - there is letterhead - but it is printed when the doc is printed - there isn't a stack of embossed paper by the printer for "official" documents. Again this is because the majority of commerce including tax returns is now done electronically in the US. It's a little more efficient and less error prone - hence no need for a company stamp. I was given the impression that anything that I could print out myself cannot be trusted which is fair enough as that would be relatively easy to fake - not that it would be all that hard to go to a stationery shop and get my own letterhead and stamp. A phone call to my company or bank would verify all of the information provided anyway.

Does anybody really believe that the only thing that is protecting Irish banks is a stamp and official looking documents? This is Waterford Whispers material - if they've not covered it already.

Jimmy

hardCopy

loznduff wrote: »

Thanks everybody for the replies.

To clarify a few points - I have already spoken to a bank and provided printed statements for all of their requests. These were not acceptable because "they are not originals".

Regarding company letterhead - there is letterhead - but it is printed when the doc is printed - there isn't a stack of embossed paper by the printer for "official" documents. Again this is because the majority of commerce including tax returns is now done electronically in the US. It's a little more efficient and less error prone - hence no need for a company stamp. I was given the impression that anything that I could print out myself cannot be trusted which is fair enough as that would be relatively easy to fake - not that it would be all that hard to go to a stationery shop and get my own letterhead and stamp. A phone call to my company or bank would verify all of the information provided anyway.

Does anybody really believe that the only thing that is protecting Irish banks is a stamp and official looking documents? This is Waterford Whispers material - if they've not covered it already.

Jimmy

This sounds like you just got a gobsh1te in the bank. Pretty much all utility bills, payslips and bank statements are issued electronically now by default. In the last year I've used home printed statements to open accounts with two banks, get a new driving licence and register my marriage. KBC and PTSB were the two banks I dealt with.

The PDFs that AIB generate are identical to the paper statements they issue, I don't see how a bank official could even tell it was printed from a PDF. Maybe just get better paper and submit again.

Our company also haven't used letterhead stock in over 4 years.

DublinDilbert

loznduff wrote: »

Thanks everybody for the replies.

To clarify a few points - I have already spoken to a bank and provided printed statements for all of their requests. These were not acceptable because "they are not originals".

Regarding company letterhead - there is letterhead - but it is printed when the doc is printed - there isn't a stack of embossed paper by the printer for "official" documents. Again this is because the majority of commerce including tax returns is now done electronically in the US. It's a little more efficient and less error prone - hence no need for a company stamp. I was given the impression that anything that I could print out myself cannot be trusted which is fair enough as that would be relatively easy to fake - not that it would be all that hard to go to a stationery shop and get my own letterhead and stamp. A phone call to my company or bank would verify all of the information provided anyway.

Does anybody really believe that the only thing that is protecting Irish banks is a stamp and official looking documents? This is Waterford Whispers material - if they've not covered it already.

Jimmy

I can hear your frustration. Someone in the bank is checking boxes. As you said you could get company branded paper / stamp made up anywhere and print what you like on it. Very few company's are actually getting their own letter heads done, They are just using a template and a laser printer.

The thing is the bank can't ring up your employer due to data protection or even ring another bank, so they'll only go on what's submitted. I don't no any employer that would give out confidential information about an employee to someone over the phone that says they are from the "bank".

witchgirl26

loznduff wrote: »

Regarding company letterhead - there is letterhead - but it is printed when the doc is printed - there isn't a stack of embossed paper by the printer for "official" documents. Again this is because the majority of commerce including tax returns is now done electronically in the US. It's a little more efficient and less error prone - hence no need for a company stamp. I was given the impression that anything that I could print out myself cannot be trusted which is fair enough as that would be relatively easy to fake - not that it would be all that hard to go to a stationery shop and get my own letterhead and stamp.

What you could do, and what I know a lot of places accept, is if you print out the document on the company letter head, and then get the signature in a different colour ink so that it's clear that it's been looked at after printing. It's what we do a lot. We do have company letter head pages but they're only used for contracts. Everything else we need letter head for is printed on high quality paper with the letterhead being printed too.

loznduff wrote: »

A phone call to my company or bank would verify all of the information provided anyway.

This is not going to happen or work. Nor should it. No-one can really verify who they are over the phone so I doubt your company or bank would give information to someone claiming to be from another bank over the phone.

loznduff wrote: »

Does anybody really believe that the only thing that is protecting Irish banks is a stamp and official looking documents? This is Waterford Whispers material - if they've not covered it already.

If you think about it though it does protect them. If they have something official that they've relied on and it turns out to have been faked, then it becomes not that the bank hasn't done their due diligence but that the person was involved in fraud. The bank gets to stay an innocent affected party rather than complicit. It's not the only thing protecting them but it does serve a purpose.

And honestly considering the way things went here, is it not better than the banks are crossing their t's & dotting their i's?

ghostdancer

loznduff wrote: »

BUT because I am told that I would need to provide "original documents" - bank statements, tax return, pay statements and a letter from my employer stating salary and job title "stamped". Original documents means documents that are sent in the post.

any vaguely competent company should be able to provide original paper documents of these.
when I was in the US I got various printed original copies of things from the IRS and my bank (WellsFargo).

have you actually got on to the various parties and requested original copies?

MrMorooka

loznduff wrote: »

For example - in the US - an individuals credit history is monitored constantly by credit reporting agencies (Experian, Equifax, TransUnion) and therefore it's enough to reliably verify the credit worthiness of that individual by running a credit report.

Slightly off topic, but I for one would never want the credit check industry to take hold here.

MarkAnthony

MrMorooka wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but I for one would never want the credit check industry to take hold here.

Why not?

It would make everyone's life easier especially people like the OP. It would also make the rental market a lot less hassle for everyone.

MrDerp

I'd be getting onto your HR department.

It might be an unusual request where you live, but it's not an unreasonable one. Be nice and outline, with a sample, what you're expecting. Someone will be able to do it.

ForEffsSake

I was living abroad but was resident here for a few months before applying for a mortgage. We got approved with KBC and PTSB (going with PTSB). I found KBC much more strict to be honest as they really scrutinized our local and foreign bank accounts and every penny had to be accounted for.

I was able to provide PDF bank statements to them both by email. When they say original bank statements, I think they mean it has to be the official statement with your name and address on it - whether that be electronic or hard-copy. You can't just print off a statement from the ATM.
I did have a problem with my electronic wage slips as they had a password, which I obviously didn't want to be sending around. So I printed them off and sent them in. The only printed original required was my salary cert. That was a PTSB-provided form that my HR manager had to fill in. HR then had to sign and stamp it with the company stamp. Not a big deal.
As for bills/proof of address, again I was able to provide the electronic PDF format bills by email, or I could print them off on my own printer.
Maybe in your case it's different because you live abroad, but I think the safeguards need to be in place. You need to prove you have a job where you say you do, prove you live where you say you do, and your bank account is managed well.
I really don't see why you had such a problem with this as it is fairly standard. It's not backward or draconian, just protecting their interests.