Triathlon Swimming - BS?

sconhome

No better buachaill than the Doc for cutting to the chase

http://trisutto.com/7-swim-myths-triathlon/

Pullbuoy? Bilateral breathing? Hand entry? All from the perspective of the triathlete rather than a swimmer.

Oryx

Thats brilliant. I particularly liked the part about bilateral:

Roger Federer plays tennis with one arm. It has yet to fall off.

Kurt_Godel

AKW wrote: »

No better buachaill than the Doc for cutting to the chase

http://trisutto.com/7-swim-myths-triathlon/

Pullbuoy? Bilateral breathing? Hand entry? All from the perspective of the triathlete rather than a swimmer.

His case would be strengthened by being consistent. No point berating 3.8k swimmers for copying a pool swimmers kick, if you are then going to use 100m-thumb entry as an example of what should be done for distance. Its a very fluffy piece, and low on specifics. In general, all those listed "myths" are solid advice for generic Tri mid-packers, I wouldn't term any of them misinformation.

sconhome

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

In general, all those listed "myths" are solid advice for generic Tri mid-packers, I wouldn't term any of them misinformation.

True.

There is also room for a counter argument that there are too many triathletes who are trying to be swimmers rather than training for their specific sport.

MojoMaker

This one jumped out at me and didn't make immediate sense. regardless of breathing cadence I would have thought an even stroke was the goal in all swimming?

5) Bilateral Breathing
There is no need to bilateral breathe. You will not create injury because of muscle imbalance.
Roger Federer plays tennis with one arm. It has yet to fall off. Please don’t fall for this.
Bilateral breathing is certainly not a fundamental of swimming.
‘But we need to bilateral breathe to make the stroke even.’
Those within Trisutto.com swimming with Total Body Force method should know the last thing we want with the stroke is to have both sides even. In our own squad we even have some athletes using 2 different shaped paddles to make sure the stroke is uneven.

Kurt_Godel

AKW wrote: »

True.

There is also room for a counter argument that there are too many triathletes who are trying to be swimmers rather than training for their specific sport.

The "swim as a Triathlete rather than a swimmer" is a bit of a buzzword slogan, TBH.

sconhome

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

The "swim as a Triathlete rather than a swimmer" is a bit of a buzzword slogan, TBH.

How so?

sconhome

MojoMaker wrote: »

‘But we need to bilateral breathe to make the stroke even.’
Those within Trisutto.com swimming with Total Body Force method should know the last thing we want with the stroke is to have both sides even. In our own squad we even have some athletes using 2 different shaped paddles to make sure the stroke is uneven.

Was curious about that too.

Wonder if that is to build strength through imbalance? Same way that unbalanced barbells will help fire core stabilisers or uneven press-ups will fire different muscles.

The other think I was thinking was as it applies to mostly OW swimming in triathlon having unbalanced training may help in current situations where a stroke needs to be adapted for the conditions (?)

I'm asking questions BTW

cjt156

Sutto wrote:

...make sure the stroke is uneven.

eh....what now?

I defer to superior knowledge but what's the reason for this?

Edit; hadn't seen AKW's post.

Bambaata

Slightly off topic but Sutto related, anyone see his tweet to TMag about foot strike, that both champs at Kona have a heel strike/stand upright. What was he getting at there - that athlete should do what's natural without trying to change much, that heel is infact better for whatever reason, that an IM run is completely different to shorter standalone run and should be trained with different technique...???

https://twitter.com/trisutto/status/654720727132712962

Kurt_Godel

AKW wrote: »

How so?

Want to get faster as a distance swimmer?

Swim with faster swimmers, ask them to look at your stroke, ask them what works for them, observe what works with them. Do distance-appropriate sets. Get a coach you trust to observe you swimming and respond to feedback.

Want to get faster as a triathlete swimmer?

See above.

sconhome

Bambaata wrote: »

that athlete should do what's natural without trying to change much

Forget the rest ^ this is the important bit.

Running form is between the ears. Open a new thread as this is a whole other area of subjectivity. **warms up typing fingers** :cool:

tunney

Sisyphus

In Greek mythology Sisyphus was the king of Ephyra. He was punished for his self-aggrandizing craftiness and deceitfulness by being compelled to roll an immense boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down; repeating this action for eternity.

sconhome

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Want to get faster as a distance swimmer?

Swim with faster swimmers, ask them to look at your stroke, ask them what works for them, observe what works with them. Do distance-appropriate sets. Get a coach you trust to observe you swimming and respond to feedback.

Want to get faster as a triathlete swimmer?

Swim with faster triathletes, ask them to look at your stroke, ask them what works for them, observe what works with them. Do distance-appropriate sets. Get a coach you trust to observe you swimming and respond to feedback.

A bit facetious I know, sorry but I'm not convinced its right for tri. I don't know the answers though. Curious to hear what Mr Kern and co think of Sutto's comments.

Kurt_Godel

tunney wrote: »

Sisyphus

If only there were some quantifiable way to measure Sisyphus' progress!

Dory Dory

"Males compared to females need less time with swim tools."

:eek: What the hell does this mean???

And my guess about the desire to foster an uneven stroke has to do with breathing on 2, which is what is done in a race setting.

MojoMaker

What he meant seemed quite clear in all but the point about learning to develop an unbalanced stroke. DD I think you're getting close to it but I'm not sure that's the complete answer.

Sometimes Mr Sutton does appear to be provocative for the sake of being provocative. I guess he's not alone in that however. I know PK is a fan though so maybe he will care to be equally provocative as this is genuinely an interesting point.

Swim toys = make poor swimmers feel more confident in a body of water and by doing so more likely to swim to their potential (whatever that may be, limited or otherwise).

Where would we be without the 'aul pull buoy

tunney

MojoMaker wrote: »

What he meant seemed quite clear in all but the point about learning to develop an unbalanced stroke. DD I think you're getting close to it but I'm not sure that's the complete answer.

Sometimes Mr Sutton does appear to be provocative for the sake of being provocative. I guess he's not alone in that however. I know PK is a fan though so maybe he will care to be equally provocative as this is genuinely an interesting point.

Swim toys = make poor swimmers feel more confident in a body of water and by doing so more likely to swim to their potential (whatever that may be, limited or otherwise).

Where would we be without the 'aul pull buoy

he never said unbalanced, he said uneven. While we strive for symmetry in everything - albeit subconsciously, its even one of the features that people find attractive in the opposite sex - sometimes two wrongs can make a right and two different forms of asymmetry could, perhaps, result in symmetry.
Or he could just be trying to out peter peter on his suttonness.

MojoMaker

Is that even possible?

Dory Dory

I posed this bilateral/uneven stroke concept to Hillary Biscay since I knew she could explain to me Sutton's reason, and here is what she said:

"yes i have actually seen and heard sutto explain this concept in person many times. so here's the thing: everyone has a dominant side, and sutto believes that ignoring that and trying to "even out" one's stroke just for the sake of being even isn't necessarily productive as it combats one's body's natural rhythm. and he believes that in a lot of cases , tapping into one's natural tendencies/ rhythm is how that individual can be the strongest. and i actually think he is right--i've seen this in action many x over , including my own swimming AND running.

now the ability to, say, breathe to both sides , is important to have in the case of chop/ waves coming at you from one direction in a race. it is useful to be able to do this but , again, many of us are faster and more efficient breathing to the side that most suits the rhythm of our stroke.

i hope this makes some sense "

sconhome

Thanks DD!!

Interesting that running is mentioned as this is a pet peeve for me where people are forcing forefoot and high cadence strides on themselves all because a book says its right. They then wonder why they come up injured.

Our natural rhythms have a lot to do with our individual mechanical limitations too. Thanks for the update

Oryx

An anecdotal story I heard, was of a fast runner who had a really odd style. One arm would flail in an inexplicable way, and defied corrective measures. It turned out that one leg was shorter than the other, and the strange movement of the arm was to even out and compensate for the imbalance. I think thats true for most of us, sure we can improve form but essentially our individual style and efficiency depends on our own unique physiology.

pgibbo

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

It's a very fine swimmer who would know when its better to ignore a balanced stroke in favour of a dominant side. You'd surely need a lot of observational feedback from a coach to ensure you weren't compounding a problem.

I can see how it could work at an advanced level, but doubt its use for the average midpacker or group session swimmer.

You could say the same thing for someone trying to balance their stroke. I think the key thing is being exposed to regular feedback.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

You could say the same thing for someone trying to balance their stroke. I think the key thing is being exposed to regular good feedback.

Fixed that for you. Someone not great on deck is worse than nothing.

pgibbo

tunney wrote: »

Fixed that for you. Someone not great on deck is worse than nothing.

Agreed. Thought of that afterwards but you beat me too it. Very good point.

pgibbo

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

I'll go out on a limb and say in the absence of any feedback (and this is an online article aimed at midpackers), its pretty irresponsible to suggest thumb entry, straight arms, and asymmetric swimming/breathing, should be generic advice. Its a recipe for injury IMO.

Playing devils advocate:

- how do you thumb entry or straight arm leads to injuries - n=1 or feedback from swimmers? BS reckons it's a fallacy. Given his background as a swim coach you'd have to at least consider his thoughts. He has worked miracles with Bella Bayliss and others regarding their swim. I saw a pic that Leanda Cave posted of her swimming and she commented that you could see her straight arm pull that goes against current recommendations but it works for her.
- if people are swimming well enough & injury free without bilateral or asymmetric who's to say that the time and effort they spend trying to rectify this wouldn't be better spent trying to get faster with their natural stroke

Personally I don't think I'd try some of his myths as something as simple as a crossover causes shoulder issues for me. If I had a good coach that I trusted on deck on a regular basis then I'd be more likely to introduce changes.

In essence I guess it's like lots of more knowledgeable people than me on here say - you have to be careful about what you read on the web and make small incremental changes and note their effect. You also need to think seriously about how the changes might effect you based on your limitations - mobility, sensory feedback, etc

As ever I think one of the issues with most people, especially adult learner swimmers like me, is that they think they know what their body parts are doing in the water and where they are at various points during the stroke. However, the reality is until you see yourself on video you don't realise how far off the mark you really were.

BTW - I'm inclined to agree with you about how it would lead to injuries for people, especially over zealous triathletes

sconhome

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

My swim credentials are no better than yours pgibbo, but from what I've picked up from various coaches, reading, articles, etc:

I think we all sing from more or less the same sheet as adult swimmers as opposed to those trained as coaches or natural born swimmers. We are good at picking up on stuff and trying it out.

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

...
Straight elbow- again, will cause too much shoulder stress by utilising a pull from the shoulder region almost exclusively. A bent elbow will engage chest, core, and side muscles too. (The classic coaches demo- stand upright with your arm held directly straight out in front, fingers pointing as far as possible. Have someone press down on your hand as you resist. Now introduce a slight bend at the elbow and try again, see the difference it makes).

This is something I've always wondered about. This demonstrates the lack of strength resisting a downward force. In swimming you are exerting a downwards force so being able to resist one has no bearing on the muscles used.

I think the ideal of the bent elbow is to encourage rotation in the body rather than empowering some unused torso muscles. Similarly when people talk about 'S' shapes with their hands you see people carving the entire alphabet in the water but the 'S' actually IS the natural pathway of the hand through the water, no need to dwell on it.

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Asymmetric breathing/swimming- usually leads to a host of snaking issues from swimming, (and neck injury from overuse in breathing). Of course this doesn't have to be the case, but when you see the sheer emphasis of coaches teaching midpackers to swim symmetrically- to correct a host of bad issues- you'd question the value of turning this advice on its head.

From the womb we all have a dominant neck position, that our head naturally falls into. In the recent years I notice than many people are hung up on ensuring a baby gets balanced time facing each way to avoid this being compounded in development - I believe it is common practise with post natal physio.

Anywho, point being we all have a natural side to rotate our head towards, anything contrary to this is unnatural - so forcing bilateral breathing IMO may lead to neck injuries rather than cure them - bit like the forced unnatural cadence or forefoot patterns.

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Again, all the above my 2c, and only applies generically.

Me too - just chin wagging and thinking.

tunney

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

I'll go out on a limb and say in the absence of any feedback (and this is an online article aimed at midpackers), its pretty irresponsible to suggest thumb entry, straight arms, and asymmetric swimming/breathing, should be generic advice. Its a recipe for injury IMO.

Feedback......

try straight arm - place, press, push. Get it wrong. Instant feedback if you use the wrong muscles.

Water gives plenty of feedback. Until someone understands that feedback it doesn't matter if Greg Glassman himself is on the deck telling them what to do then its meaningless until they can understand the water.

Dory Dory

Good god, I never thought I'd ever be referencing swim smooth (sincerest apologies interested! )...but, for those who are skeptical at what Mr. Sutton spouts yet think swim smooth is the gospel, here's an article to consider on the bent arm topic.

http://www.feelforthewater.com/2014/06/experimenting-with-straighter-arm.html

pgibbo

Dory Dory wrote: »

Good god, I never thought I'd ever be referencing swim smooth (sincerest apologies interested! )...but, for those who are skeptical at what Mr. Sutton spouts yet think swim smooth is the gospel, here's an article to consider on the bent arm topic.

http://www.feelforthewater.com/2014/06/experimenting-with-straighter-arm.html

This then begs the question is BS talking straight arm pull or recovery? :pac:

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

This then begs the question is BS talking straight arm pull or recovery? :pac:

Pull.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_1500_metres_freestyle

janet evans, world record 1500m holder for 20 years. anyone want to guess her style of swimming? Kurt - will we look for her email to tell her that its going to hurt her shoulders?

Dory Dory

Janet Evans used the "unorthodox windmill" style of stroke. Here's an analysis of her stroke and corresponding pics of her underwater pull.

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/champion/evans.htm

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

This then begs the question is BS talking straight arm pull or recovery? :pac:

I took straight arm. Full stop. No nice bend before entry with a stretch and reach. No high elbow, snap wrist & pull. Just good old fashioned slap the water and drive on.

I remember reading about straight arm being more efficient for ow swimming as there is less frontal area when slicing through waver. Windmill the arms nice and high means there are no hands or forearms increasing drag in the water.

sconhome

Dory Dory wrote: »

Good god, I never thought I'd ever be referencing swim smooth (sincerest apologies interested! )...but, for those who are skeptical at what Mr. Sutton spouts yet think swim smooth is the gospel, here's an article to consider on the bent arm topic.

http://www.feelforthewater.com/2014/06/experimenting-with-straighter-arm.html

Looking at that straight arm clip you can see the thumb entering the water first......

Pmaldini

a friend of mine started 1 to 1 lessons 6 weeks ago, the 1st thing the coach said to him after viewing his stroke was "why are you trying to use a high elbow when all your races are in open water" they started working on a straight arm and from his 1st 1000m tt 6 weeks ago to his most recent last week he has improved by over 3 mins, I am not saying it is entirely down to the straight arm but reading through the posts above it seems he might be onto something, he was swimming with a high elbow as that is what he thought was right, it may also be the placebo effect of working with a coach for the 1st time, I know I have spent the last 2 years bilateral breathing and focusing on a high elbow which has improved me from a floating brick to just about ok but I might spend a few months trying the straight arm to see what happens!!