No party/fire wall in attic

antiskeptic

I'm helping a friend out with the purchase of a mid-terrace house, an approx 100 year old property. The surveyors report details the complete lack of a party/fire wall to one side in the attic space, between this house and one of the neighbouring houses - built as pair by the same builder. Some fire stopping is required to the existing block party wall on the other side

What is the recommended solution in the case of an absent party wall cases? A block built structure or a stud wall with fire-rated plasterboard. Are there lightweight blocks that can be used (in the case a block wall is the way to go) such as not to add significant load to the (currently sound) party wall below?

Thanks..

ht9zni1gs28crp

Stud wall with fire rated boards both sides to get 60mins absolute minimum resistance would be your easiest option. Block build in attic would be a lot messier....

antiskeptic

miller_63 wrote: »

Stud wall with fire rated boards both sides to get 60mins absolute minimum resistance would be your easiest option. Block build in attic would be a lot messier....

I should have said that the house is going to have a reasonable amount of internal works done post-purchase so a bit of mess isn't so much of an issue. Can you simply add more fireboards to up the rating or is block built the best solution (in order to stop fire spread with a view to saving the house rather than enabling time for the occupants to escape.

Chemical Byrne

In my view, there is little doubt that a block wall will win hands down over any type of stud partition in the fire rating department.

You'd also want to consider what sort of individuals are living next door, especially if it's a rented house. With no party wall or even a stud wall (which could easily be punched through) you could have neighbours creeping around in your attic.

ht9zni1gs28crp

If getting messy is an option then like said above the solid block wall will win hands down every day.

antiskeptic

miller_63 wrote: »

If getting messy is an option then like said above the solid block wall will win hands down every day.

Any idea of firewall suitable lightweight blocks?

Chemical Byrne

Quinlite? Are they fire rated?

ht9zni1gs28crp

Part B – Fire Safety B2 – Internal Fire Spread (Linings) Quinn-Lite Aircrete B3, B5 and B7 are noncombustible. Therefore with traditional plasterboard finishes to ceilings, the blocks can be used in buildings of all purpose groups, providing the buildings are adequately designed in respect of fire safety.

B3 – Internal Fire Spread (Structure) Walls using Quinn-Lite Aircrete B3, B5 and B7 meet the requirement, provided the completed walls comply with the conditions described in Section 4.1 of this Certificate.

B4 – External Fire Spread Quinn-Lite Aircrete B3, B5 and B7 have a Class 0 surface spread of flame rating, and when used in the context of this Certificate, can satisfy the requirements of this Regulation.

vandriver

You'd also want to consider what sort of individuals are living next door, especially if it's a rented house. With no party wall or even a stud wall (which could easily be punched through) you could have neighbours creeping around in your attic.


Wha?

Chemical Byrne

Wha?

As in, apart from the obvious fire safety purpose of the party wall, there could be the potential issue of "undesirable" tenants moving in next door who, on opening the attic hatch, spot that there is no party wall and proceed to have free reign around OP's attic. Taken to an extreme, there is the possibility of them coming down OP's attic hatch and stealthily burgling his house from the inside.

They could easily break through a plasterboard PW. Block would be much more secure.

vandriver

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

As in, apart from the obvious fire safety purpose of the party wall, there could be the potential issue of "undesirable" tenants moving in next door who, on opening the attic hatch, spot that there is no party wall and proceed to have free reign around OP's attic. Taken to an extreme, there is the possibility of them coming down OP's attic hatch and stealthily burgling his house from the inside.

They could easily break through a plasterboard PW. Block would be much more secure.

Yes,that's probably what would happen.Those pesky renters are all thieves.

Bogger77

vandriver wrote: »

Yes,that's probably what would happen.Those pesky renters are all thieves.

not just renters, I know in a house my family lived in, there was a gap in the party wall in the attic, and the next door neighbor did enter our attic

Chemical Byrne

vandriver wrote: »

Yes,that's probably what would happen.Those pesky renters are all thieves.

Bogger77 wrote: »

not just renters, I know in a house my family lived in, there was a gap in the party wall in the attic, and the next door neighbor did enter our attic

You see? It's not that out there as an idea.

Gumbo

don't forget to fire stop at eaves level if not already done, and fire stop right the way up to the underside of the roof tiles.

Technical Guidance Document Part B Diagram 13.

mfceiling

Google "gypsum shaft wall detail"

It allows you to install a wall without encroaching into your neighbours space.

In fairness if there is no dividing wall between you then it's in both your interests to sort this out.

antiskeptic

kceire wrote: »

don't forget to fire stop at eaves level if not already done, and fire stop right the way up to the underside of the roof tiles.

Technical Guidance Document Part B Diagram 13.

Bloody 'eck, that is one detailed document. Great reading for the interested layman. Cheers.. kceire

Gumbo

antiskeptic wrote: »

Bloody 'eck, that is one detailed document. Great reading for the interested layman. Cheers.. kceire

It's a nice document, especially for straight forward jobs.
It's when you get into the area of engineered solutions and BS5588 and BS9999 that it gets interesting. There's some light reading for you

antiskeptic

mfceiling wrote: »

Google "gypsum shaft wall detail"

It allows you to install a wall without encroaching into your neighbours space.

Given the neighbour is an unknown quantity at this juncture, a nice option to have. Thanks.

In fairness if there is no dividing wall between you then it's in both your interests to sort this out.

Which germinates an idea to suggest to my friend: see if the neighbour wants to chip in on the costs of construction!

antiskeptic

kceire wrote: »

It's a nice document, especially for straight forward jobs.
It's when you get into the area of engineered solutions and BS5588 and BS9999 that it gets interesting. There's some light reading for you

I work in a fairly heavily regulated sector and the standards very often don't bear any relation to what happens on the ground (which appears to be true in the case of at least some recent builds).

Which is not to say there isn't a lot of wisdom to be found there.

A four year demanding of my time precludes other than sitting on the bog perusal of same however. I much prefer rolling around in the playground!

antiskeptic

miller_63 wrote: »

Part B – Fire Safety B2 – Internal Fire Spread (Linings) Quinn-Lite Aircrete B3, B5 and B7 are noncombustible. Therefore with traditional plasterboard finishes to ceilings, the blocks can be used in buildings of all purpose groups, providing the buildings are adequately designed in respect of fire safety.

B3 – Internal Fire Spread (Structure) Walls using Quinn-Lite Aircrete B3, B5 and B7 meet the requirement, provided the completed walls comply with the conditions described in Section 4.1 of this Certificate.

B4 – External Fire Spread Quinn-Lite Aircrete B3, B5 and B7 have a Class 0 surface spread of flame rating, and when used in the context of this Certificate, can satisfy the requirements of this Regulation.

That's what I call an entry point in. I'm going to be relying on the advice of what I'd consider a good builder but do want to be a bit informed since I'm kind of overseeing what's going to be happening for a mate who's not got a clue.

The Sidewards Man

Mix a few buckets of stuff and build the wall up be grand.

antiskeptic

Further to attic firewall construction in a 100 year old house built without one

- the party wall is cast concrete terminating at upstairs bedroom ceiling level. It's accessible from the attic for the purposes of building upon. Not so much rubble-containing as pebble-containing.

- a structural eng is being consulted re: discovery of chimney breast removal from rear reception/rear upstairs bedroom - but not from the attic. A massive (and badly cracked) cast concrete chimney structure (which goes on to meet the front-of-house chimney breast before exiting the roof in a single stack) hangs presently from the next door breast/party wall. This cantilevered arrangement is aided and abetted by a 4x2 prop from a couple of upstairs bedroom ceiling joists !



Is it sufficient to get a proficient builder to construct a blockwork wall with advice from the struc. eng on the suitability of the party wall to bear the load. Or does one need to go further and get firewall professional / certification?


Thanks

Gumbo

antiskeptic wrote: »

Is it sufficient to get a proficient builder to construct a blockwork wall with advice from the struc. eng on the suitability of the party wall to bear the load. Or does one need to go further and get firewall professional / certification?


Thanks

Decent builder working from the advice of the engineer who has a decent understanding of how fire spreads, smoke spreads and materials heat up in a fire.

What you are trying to achieve is compliance in the 3 main areas here, structural capability, integrity and insulation.
I would not state that you "have to" employ a specific fire engineer.

antiskeptic

kceire wrote: »

Decent builder working from the advice of the engineer who has a decent understanding of how fire spreads, smoke spreads and materials heat up in a fire.

What you are trying to achieve is compliance in the 3 main areas here, structural capability, integrity and insulation.
I would not state that you "have to" employ a specific fire engineer.

Okay. Thanks a mil..

bikenut

Apologies for picking up an old thread but I have the exact same issue

100 year old building common attic (on both sides). Want to build a fire rated partition wall - lightweight brick or fire-rated plasterboard, etc.

Who would one go to in the first place for advice on this - builder, engineer, architect, etc? Does the job need to be signed off by a fire safety officer for insurance purposes, etc?

Happy to have a go at building it ourselves but would like to have a conformance cert at the end that proves it was done properly.

Gumbo

bikenut wrote: »

Apologies for picking up an old thread but I have the exact same issue

100 year old building common attic (on both sides). Want to build a fire rated partition wall - lightweight brick or fire-rated plasterboard, etc.

Who would one go to in the first place for advice on this - builder, engineer, architect, etc? Does the job need to be signed off by a fire safety officer for insurance purposes, etc?

Happy to have a go at building it ourselves but would like to have a conformance cert at the end that proves it was done properly.

Engineer to determine if there's suitable loading below to create the new wall and how it can be constructed. Depending on what can be constructed, will determine how you construct it. You can equally create a block fire wall as you can a timber stud fire wall with adequate plasterboard footed and staggered etc

antiskeptic

kceire wrote: »

Engineer to determine if there's suitable loading below to create the new wall and how it can be constructed. Depending on what can be constructed, will determine how you construct it. You can equally create a block fire wall as you can a timber stud fire wall with adequate plasterboard footed and staggered etc

Speaking of engineers. The structural engineer I got out to spec the above attic firewall went stud/plasterboard. Only he specified stud and plasterboard on one side only! It took a while for the irony of the situation to dawn on him. My client would pay for it ... and end up protecting his neighbour from a fire emanating on the clients of the wall