Demolition of Killincarrig House

sinkadinka

Just noticed that the proposed development of new apartment blocks at the Killincarrig roundabout involves the demolition of Killincarrig House. I seriously hope that the planners will refuse this considering that the location of this old house is part of the old Killincarrig Village and has historical value to the area. It's location is beside some old houses and I dread to think what the developer proposes to put in its place. Would anyone know if this building should be or is on the listed buildings list or how to go about finding out some more information about it?

FirstIn

sinkadinka wrote: »

Just noticed that the proposed development of new apartment blocks at the Killincarrig roundabout involves the demolition of Killincarrig House. I seriously hope that the planners will refuse this considering that the location of this old house is part of the old Killincarrig Village and has historical value to the area. It's location is beside some old houses and I dread to think what the developer proposes to put in its place. Would anyone know if this building should be or is on the listed buildings list or how to go about finding out some more information about it?

Anything goes round here. Did you not hear/see/realise we're in a race to the bottom?
As it stands we're neck and neck with Milton Keynes. I'm backing us!

pixbyjohn

There was permission for a Nursing home as below, but I think there has been a new planning application since for houses/apartments.
The house has been in ruins for years, hasn't been lived in since Wilfred Evans lived there. As far as I know the house belonged to a Mr. Irwin.
It is time these dilapidated buildings were demolished or renovated and made useful.
"Fantastic Opportunity to acquire a stunning development site in Killincarraig Village; between Delgany and Greystones. The 2.3 Acre Site is Zoned Neighbourhood Centre which allows for Residential and Commercial Development, there is also a large period home on site included in the sale. The site is situated adjacent to the very successful “Delgany Hills” development which was a mixture of apartments and townhouses. The Site currently has full planning for a Nursing Home and four detached 4 bedroom Homes which is valid until February 2015. There has been a feasibility study conducted on the site which shows the potential for between 20 and 26 houses under current guidelines."

heroics

Details are on planning website

http://www.eplanning.ie/WicklowCC/AppFileRefDetails/15994/0

FirstIn

pixbyjohn wrote: »

It is time these dilapidated buildings were demolished or renovated and made useful

But ask yourself, why is it we have these dilapidated buildings? Seems odd in such a sought after area. No.

Therein lies the problem.

beepbeeprichie

It'll be a joke if they knock it down. One thing the UK do well is preserving their buildings and their history. We knock them down and build sh##e instead because it's "too expensive to fix them up". What building defines Greystones? For me it's the la touche but they wanted to knock it too. It's ludicrous. Not many landmarks left around town, let's start protecting them better and telling lazy ass architects and developers to restore and improve these great old buildings.

Annasopra

FirstIn wrote: »

Anything goes round here. Did you not hear/see/realise we're in a race to the bottom?
As it stands we're neck and neck with Milton Keynes. I'm backing us!

I dont get the Milton Keynes reference

sinkadinka

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dont get the Milton Keynes reference

Me neither 😀

I could understand 4 houses/nursing home if they kept the old house but I don't get knocking the house down to put up or rather throw up a couple of apartment blocks. To remove that old house will take away from the character off the village and I sincerely hope that it doesn't go through. The house appears to be in reasonable order and surely could be sold on separately as a renovation project. I am assuming that the access to the apartment blocks will not be where the old house is positioned considering how busy that road is so I can't see any valid reason to demolish it.

homer911

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dont get the Milton Keynes reference

I've worked in Milton Keynes - I consider it "soulless"

Greystones is far from it..

Langerland

sinkadinka wrote: »

Me neither 😀

I could understand 4 houses/nursing home if they kept the old house but I don't get knocking the house down to put up or rather throw up a couple of apartment blocks. To remove that old house will take away from the character off the village and I sincerely hope that it doesn't go through. The house appears to be in reasonable order and surely could be sold on separately as a renovation project. I am assuming that the access to the apartment blocks will not be where the old house is positioned considering how busy that road is so I can't see any valid reason to demolish it.

It seems that the area of the new development where the house is will be set aside for a commercial premises with alcohol license facing into the Killincarrig village. Would that be a pub license?

New houses back onto Delgany Hills and the apartments face onto the road near the roundabout.

loyatemu

there's nothing to stop any of you objecting to this on the basis of the old house being of architectural value (either in itself or as part of the fabric of the village). Deadline for submissions is Nov 4th.

I don't like seeing old buildings knocked, but I don't like seeing them derelict for years on end either. TBH I wasn't even aware of this house due to the overgrown hedges around it.

recedite

sinkadinka wrote: »

Killincarrig House.
.. Would anyone know if this building should be or is on the listed buildings list or how to go about finding out some more information about it?

Being on the WCC list of protected structures is of no use anyway when a house is vacant. Two other houses nearby, Struan Hill and Stylebawn House in Delgany village were in fairly good nick only two or three years ago when they were bought by developers. Now they are just ruins.
If you lived in a listed house, and asked the council for permission to install say new windows or other modern stuff, they would write you a nasty letter.
Eventually people get fed up and they move out. Sell up to a developer.

In a vacant house, nobody reads the letters. The house can be left to dilapidate. Somebody takes the slates off the roof, cuts out a few lead pipes and leaves the water flowing, the ceilings collapse a few days later...

I don't know much about this house, but if you are researching it be aware that there were two other Killincarrig (or Killincarrick) Houses. The original one was at the current Golf Club on Whitshed Road. When the owners (Hawkins/Whitshed family) decided to build a better one closer to the sea, they took the house name with them. The new house was opposite the Greystones United football grounds, roughly where Woodlands apartment block is now. That house was allegedly burned down by a developer in the 1970's, but the line of very tall pine trees along the road there is the original tree-lined private avenue up to the house.

I don't know how No. 3 house came by the name, but I suspect they saw an opportunity to "acquire" a fancy name when nobody else was using it, so the house may not be as grandiose as it sounds.

Zoo4m8

pixbyjohn wrote: »

There was permission for a Nursing home as below, but I think there has been a new planning application since for houses/apartments.
The house has been in ruins for years, hasn't been lived in since Wilfred Evans lived there. As far as I know the house belonged to a Mr. Irwin.
It is time these dilapidated buildings were demolished or renovated and made useful.
"Fantastic Opportunity to acquire a stunning development site in Killincarraig Village; between Delgany and Greystones. The 2.3 Acre Site is Zoned Neighbourhood Centre which allows for Residential and Commercial Development, there is also a large period home on site included in the sale. The site is situated adjacent to the very successful “Delgany Hills” development which was a mixture of apartments and townhouses. The Site currently has full planning for a Nursing Home and four detached 4 bedroom Homes which is valid until February 2015. There has been a feasibility study conducted on the site which shows the potential for between 20 and 26 houses under current guidelines."

John is quite correct, Wilfrid Evans was the farm manager on the Burnaby estate and lived in Burnaby House or Manor now Greystones Golf Club clubhouse. When Mrs Burnaby and her son decided to return to Ireland from America (late sixties?) Mr Evans and his wife and his sister was given the house in question. Already in poor condition and when the family moved to a new bungalow beside the tennis club the house was positively dangerous , for instance the living room could not be used because the floor had gone , I know because his son asked me to help move the family over thirty years ago..

So the house has remained empty all this time and must be in awful condition, it is just another old house , it has no architectural value and is quite ordinary and as said its time derelict places like these were moved on one way or another.

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule , for instance Stylebawn House mentioned above was a coaching inn in its day and for that reason alone should be preserved but unfortunately the ' gentleman' who now owns it most definitely would not see that as a good enough reason...

And don't be misled by its fine title of Killincarrig House, there are other houses in the area more worthy of the name.

Incidentally, I see Thorndale House , a far more attractive house on Convent Road in Delgany has disappeared along with its mews, stable yard and gardens and not a squeak from anybody..:rolleyes:

sinkadinka

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

John is quite correct, Wilfrid Evans was the farm manager on the Burnaby estate and lived in Burnaby House or Manor now Greystones Golf Club clubhouse. When Mrs Burnaby and her son decided to return to Ireland from America (late sixties?) Mr Evans and his wife and his sister was given the house in question. Already in poor condition and when the family moved to a new bungalow beside the tennis club the house was positively dangerous , for instance the living room could not be used because the floor had gone , I know because his son asked me to help move the family over thirty years ago..

So the house has remained empty all this time and must be in awful condition, it is just another old house , it has no architectural value and is quite ordinary and as said its time derelict places like these were moved on one way or another.:

Thanks everyone for the info, I didn't realise it has been empty for so long, from what can be seen from the road it doesn't appear to be in too bad condition but obviously inside tells a different story,

I feel that to demolish it will leave a big gapping hole amongst some lovely old houses and ruin the character of the area. I am aware that objections can be lodged and fully intend to make my opinions known to the council.

The purpose of my post was to make people aware that this house maybe demolished and perhaps others in the Killincarrig area would be also of the opinion that this should not be allowed to happen.

Wicklow Will

beepbeeprichie wrote: »

It'll be a joke if they knock it down. One thing the UK do well is preserving their buildings and their history. We knock them down and build sh##e instead because it's "too expensive to fix them up". What building defines Greystones? For me it's the la touche but they wanted to knock it too. It's ludicrous. Not many landmarks left around town, let's start protecting them better and telling lazy ass architects and developers to restore and improve these great old buildings.

I thoroughly agree with you. We have an appalling record in preserving our villages and towns. The developers are only interested in one thing: The bottom line! Even those who have first hand experience of the approach taken in the UK once they start developing here, that sensitivity of approach disappears and they revert to unsympathetic over development and the demolition of our period properties that prove inconvenient for them. I speak from direct experience in the struggle to prevent the wholesale destruction of this area.

It is only by convincing the planners to recognise this and ensuring that planners respect the integrity of inherent architectural heritage styles that we can hope to preserve what little of our village heritage remains.

If we don't, all we will have left in twenty years time will be homogenous connurbations of concrete, PVC and glass with the ensuing loss of natural products, age-old trades and the variety of buildings that demonstrate the history of our towns and villages throughout the ages. We will be a nation with a warped sense of ourselves, our values and our history.

Wicklow Will

recedite wrote: »

Being on the WCC list of protected structures is of no use anyway when a house is vacant. Two other houses nearby, Struan Hill and Stylebawn House in Delgany village were in fairly good nick only two or three years ago when they were bought by developers. Now they are just ruins.
If you lived in a listed house, and asked the council for permission to install say new windows or other modern stuff, they would write you a nasty letter.
Eventually people get fed up and they move out. Sell up to a developer.

In a vacant house, nobody reads the letters. The house can be left to dilapidate. Somebody takes the slates off the roof, cuts out a few lead pipes and leaves the water flowing, the ceilings collapse a few days later...

I don't know much about this house, but if you are researching it be aware that there were two other Killincarrig (or Killincarrick) Houses. The original one was at the current Golf Club on Whitshed Road. When the owners (Hawkins/Whitshed family) decided to build a better one closer to the sea, they took the house name with them. The new house was opposite the Greystones United football grounds, roughly where Woodlands apartment block is now. That house was allegedly burned down by a developer in the 1970's, but the line of very tall pine trees along the road there is the original tree-lined private avenue up to the house.

I don't know how No. 3 house came by the name, but I suspect they saw an opportunity to "acquire" a fancy name when nobody else was using it, so the house may not be as grandiose as it sounds.

You are completely right in what you say about the lack of support for the owners of ancient houses. It is deplorable what we have to go through to maintain them as they should be and how, once developers acquire them they can resort to "scorched earth" tactics to circumvent the Protected Structers classification. This really isn't worth the paper it's written on and believe me in trying to ensure that it is enforced to protect one of the houses you mention I was told it is virtually unenforceable as the council can't enter the land to view the state of disrepair into which it has been allowed to fall! Look at what befell Thorndale House in Delgany, earlier this year!

One thing I would say is that, whilst the house in question here may not be 'grand' in the vein of (as previously mentioned) Thorndale or Struanhill it is still a substantial building and of the style and type characteristic of Killincarrig, Delgany and Greystones and typical for Killincarrigs street scape. I guess what I'm saying is that a building doesn't have to be grand to be worthy of preservation (and I know that's not what you were saying I just felt it worthwhile to mention).

One thing that people could also do is to bring it to An Taisce's attention.

Wicklow Will

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

John is quite correct, Wilfrid Evans was the farm manager on the Burnaby estate and lived in Burnaby House or Manor now Greystones Golf Club clubhouse. When Mrs Burnaby and her son decided to return to Ireland from America (late sixties?) Mr Evans and his wife and his sister was given the house in question. Already in poor condition and when the family moved to a new bungalow beside the tennis club the house was positively dangerous , for instance the living room could not be used because the floor had gone , I know because his son asked me to help move the family over thirty years ago..

So the house has remained empty all this time and must be in awful condition, it is just another old house , it has no architectural value and is quite ordinary and as said its time derelict places like these were moved on one way or another.

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule , for instance Stylebawn House mentioned above was a coaching inn in its day and for that reason alone should be preserved but unfortunately the ' gentleman' who now owns it most definitely would not see that as a good enough reason...

And don't be misled by its fine title of Killincarrig House, there are other houses in the area more worthy of the name.

Incidentally, I see Thorndale House , a far more attractive house on Convent Road in Delgany has disappeared along with its mews, stable yard and gardens and not a squeak from anybody..:rolleyes:

Zoo4m8 It is indeed sad that Thorndale House is gone. But you couldn't be further from the truth when you say "not a squeak from anyone". (perhaps it would be more true to say not a squeak from a sufficient number of people).

There were a number of planning applications made relating to this property. Latterly, the present owners Kingscroft, sought the demolition of it. On each of these there were objections made to the proposals including the applications submitted by Kingscroft. I was one of those who objected and in addition Delgany Community Council not only objected but also entered into negotiations with Kingscroft. These were to no avail and Kingscroft was granted permission to demolish Thorndale by WCC, despite being listed in the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage! In July this year, before work started on the site the house went on fire and was then demolished as a result.

I would also argue that, contrary to your description of Killincarrig House as being "just another old house, it has no architectural value and is quite ordinary" I contend that it is a typically characteristic village house of its period (early to mid 19th century) and worthy of retention as, restored to habitable condition, it would complete the village street scape in an holistic and authentic manner, preserving the character of the main thoroughfare through the village. Architectural features do not have to be the reserve of ornate plaster work, gilded woodwork or marble floors in order to constitue architectural merit worthy of conservation. There are hundreds of thousands of period cottages, town houses and other buildings across the UK that go to make up the character of its heritage villages which would, if we were to say they are "...just another old house..." and they have "...no architectural value and [are] quite ordinary" have been disregarded and demolished. However, through an enlightened attitude these houses have been protected by legislation, preserved and cared for and contribute to some of the most enchanting and beautiful villages and towns you will find anywhere in the world. Would that we could learn from this example and look after our built heritage in like manner. We could enhance the areas we live in for our village and town residents and provide a much better experience for tourists.

newacc2015

beepbeeprichie wrote: »

It'll be a joke if they knock it down. One thing the UK do well is preserving their buildings and their history. We knock them down and build sh##e instead because it's "too expensive to fix them up". What building defines Greystones? For me it's the la touche but they wanted to knock it too. It's ludicrous. Not many landmarks left around town, let's start protecting them better and telling lazy ass architects and developers to restore and improve these great old buildings.

Eh? Renovating a normal house isnt cheap. But renovating an old house for the sake of preserving it is pointless. Developing property is a business, not a hobby. If it was a house of a famous artist or writer. I would totally understand. Or had significant architectural significance. But it looks like your typical generic old house.

You would rather we save a featureless old house, as its a "great building" instead of allowing up to 25 families get a home on that site? Some houses are worth saving. This doesnt look like one IMO

Honestly Irish people need to learn what architecture is of value. I know someone who put a house in side garden. All the resident objected as the area was of "great cultural significance". Yet the houses are generic 2 up, 2 down victorian houses. Not a single house on the road has the original hall door. Plus half of the street has cheap looking PVC doors and windows. Just because something is old, doesnt mean its important. Next thing we will have people looking to protect generic 1950s semi-Ds?

The GDA cant continue to house the population growth if we just want to save everything that is old,regardless of whether its important or not. Look at mediaeval part of Dublin. But we dont have a mediaeval part of the city, as we demolished it. It was dark and not suitable for living. So we knocked it and replaced it with Georgian housing. Sometimes the old and unsuitable has to be knocked for modern living

Wicklow Will

newacc2015 wrote: »

Eh? Renovating a normal house isnt cheap. But renovating an old house for the sake of preserving it is pointless. Developing property is a business, not a hobby. If it was a house of a famous artist or writer. I would totally understand. Or had significant architectural significance. But it looks like your typical generic old house.

You would rather we save a featureless old house, as its a "great building" instead of allowing up to 25 families get a home on that site? Some houses are worth saving. This doesnt look like one IMO

Honestly Irish people need to learn what architecture is of value. I know someone who put a house in side garden. All the resident objected as the area was of "great cultural significance". Yet the houses are generic 2 up, 2 down victorian houses. Not a single house on the road has the original hall door. Plus half of the street has cheap looking PVC doors and windows. Just because something is old, doesnt mean its important. Next thing we will have people looking to protect generic 1950s semi-Ds?

The GDA cant continue to house the population growth if we just want to save everything that is old,regardless of whether its important or not. Look at mediaeval part of Dublin. But we dont have a mediaeval part of the city, as we demolished it. It was dark and not suitable for living. So we knocked it and replaced it with Georgian housing. Sometimes the old and unsuitable has to be knocked for modern living

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you on every point you make. You seem to have a misunderstanding of what constitutes buildings if architectural merit.

In addition you also fail to realise that the infrastructure does not exist in this area, to support the numbers of housing stock WCC and the DEHLG would impose on this area through the NSS.

stanley1980

As a keen amateur historian and Greystones native/resident I've been following this thread with interest. As I didn't know anything about the house in question I'm particularly grateful to the posters who explained some of its history. I suspect such discussions are occurring in towns all over Ireland and indeed the world!
My own 2 cents are that just because a house/property is 'old' doesn't mean it shouldn't be knocked if it's dilapidated. Buildings come and go I'm afraid- it's called progress. There seems to be a strong sentiment of 'Nimby-ism' here. There's a housing shortage as is well-documented. I'd sooner see a site like this tastefully developed and provide homes for families than remain a derelict, tokenistic and unappreciated nod to history.

Annasopra

what is GDA?

newacc2015

Wicklow Will wrote: »

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you on every point you make. You seem to have a misunderstanding of what constitutes buildings if architectural merit.

In addition you also fail to realise that the infrastructure does not exist in this area, to support the numbers of housing stock WCC and the DEHLG would impose on this area through the NSS.

I totally understand what a building of significant architectural merit is. I know just because something is old, doesnt mean it has architectural merit. Just because something is old, doesnt mean it should be preserved. What is so great about this house that it should be saved?

In what way is the infrastructure non-existent? 25 additional housing units isn't a significant amount at all. A few pipes might need to be widen.

newacc2015

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

what is GDA?

Greater Dublin Area. Its the includes Dublin City and the surrounding local authorities. It considered the most important economic area of Ireland, as it contains a sizeable amount of the population and commerce of Ireland

Annasopra

newacc2015 wrote: »

Greater Dublin Area. Its the includes Dublin City and the surrounding local authorities. It considered the most important economic area of Ireland, as it contains a sizeable amount of the population and commerce of Ireland

Thanks

What is NSS? - you guys are losing me a bit on the jargonistic acronyms.

Zoo4m8

Wicklow Will wrote: »

Zoo4m8 It is indeed sad that Thorndale House is gone. But you couldn't be further from the truth when you say "not a squeak from anyone". (perhaps it would be more true to say not a squeak from a sufficient number of people).

There were a number of planning applications made relating to this property. Latterly, the present owners Kingscroft, sought the demolition of it. On each of these there were objections made to the proposals including the applications submitted by Kingscroft. I was one of those who objected and in addition Delgany Community Council not only objected but also entered into negotiations with Kingscroft. These were to no avail and Kingscroft was granted permission to demolish Thorndale by WCC, despite being listed in the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage! In July this year, before work started on the site the house went on fire and was then demolished as a result.

I would also argue that, contrary to your description of Killincarrig House as being "just another old house, it has no architectural value and is quite ordinary" I contend that it is a typically characteristic village house of its period (early to mid 19th century) and worthy of retention as, restored to habitable condition, it would complete the village street scape in an holistic and authentic manner, preserving the character of the main thoroughfare through the village. Architectural features do not have to be the reserve of ornate plaster work, gilded woodwork or marble floors in order to constitue architectural merit worthy of conservation. There are hundreds of thousands of period cottages, town houses and other buildings across the UK that go to make up the character of its heritage villages which would, if we were to say they are "...just another old house..." and they have "...no architectural value and [are] quite ordinary" have been disregarded and demolished. However, through an enlightened attitude these houses have been protected by legislation, preserved and cared for and contribute to some of the most enchanting and beautiful villages and towns you will find anywhere in the world. Would that we could learn from this example and look after our built heritage in like manner. We could enhance the areas we live in for our village and town residents and provide a much better experience for tourists.

Glad to see that there were a number of 'squeaks' (maybe I should have added 'squeaks' that I was aware of..) re Thorndale with entirely predictable results , the fact that we constantly lose worthy buildings is not the fault of concerned citizens but entirely the fault of those responsible for 'responsible' development.
When the last occupiers of Thorndale moved to Newtown the house wa probably in walk in condition and then was cynically left to deteriorate by the purchasers.
That is the critical difference between Thorndale and the Killincarrig house, apart from the important fact that the former was listed the latter was left to go derelict by its private owner over many years. Mr Irwin was an eccentric man and refused private offers over time to sell. Maybe if he had we would not be having this exchange now.
Nimbyism was mentioned further up the page , I don't think the supporters of retaining these houses could be accused of that in these cases anyway. Both houses are on large sites, the Killincarrig one particularly and so their footprint is small relative to site size and keeping them wouldn't impact greatly on unit numbers built IMO, I starting to sound as if I'm arguing against myself but I still would shed no tears if the Killincarrig house was gone!
And then to open another can of worms how about the high profile , in public view terms anyway, Windgates House being left to rot?

Wicklow Will

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

what is GDA?

GDA = Greater Dublin Area.

Wicklow Will

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

Glad to see that there were a number of 'squeaks' (maybe I should have added 'squeaks' that I was aware of..) re Thorndale with entirely predictable results , the fact that we constantly lose worthy buildings is not the fault of concerned citizens but entirely the fault of those responsible for 'responsible' development.
When the last occupiers of Thorndale moved to Newtown the house wa probably in walk in condition and then was cynically left to deteriorate by the purchasers.
That is the critical difference between Thorndale and the Killincarrig house, apart from the important fact that the former was listed the latter was left to go derelict by its private owner over many years. Mr Irwin was an eccentric man and refused private offers over time to sell. Maybe if he had we would not be having this exchange now.
Nimbyism was mentioned further up the page , I don't think the supporters of retaining these houses could be accused of that in these cases anyway. Both houses are on large sites, the Killincarrig one particularly and so their footprint is small relative to site size and keeping them wouldn't impact greatly on unit numbers built IMO, I starting to sound as if I'm arguing against myself but I still would shed no tears if the Killincarrig house was gone!
And then to open another can of worms how about the high profile , in public view terms anyway, Windgates House being left to rot?

Ahh Zoo4m8 you know how to push my buttons! Windgates Villa ( I promise we won't go off topic here Moderators) but just to say, it breaks my heart to see what's become of it. That's it. I've said piece on that and Killincarrig House. There's no point repeating ourselves. By and large we bemoan the loss of substantial period houses that could've added to our local history.

recedite

Wicklow Will wrote: »

..These were to no avail and Kingscroft was granted permission to demolish Thorndale by WCC, despite being listed in the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage! In July this year, before work started on the site the house went on fire and was then demolished as a result.

Was the fire before permission to demolish was granted, or after that?

Plastik

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Thanks

What is NSS? - you guys are losing me a bit on the jargonistic acronyms.

National Spatial Strategy