Buying a forest to live in

forestlover

Currently looking a piece of woodland to purchase. 20 + acres. The agent currently says there is a limited licence years to thin 50 % consisting of oak, ash, beech & sycamore. The main question is would we be able to remove some trees to clear a space to build a house (which we would use the trees we take down to build) or even remove some areas to start growing food. I know that if there is a grant attached to the forest then we would have to pay the grant back to take trees out but it doesn’t seem like there is any grant attached to the land so I'm no sure where we stand. Some of the trees are 100 years old. The agent we are dealing with is really slow to get back to us with info so I'm wondering maybe some of you here would know possibly.

Thanks

barnaman

Follow this link should be all the info you require

http://www.teagasc.ie/forestry/advice/felling_licences.asp

timfromtang

barnaman wrote: »

Follow this link should be all the info you require

http://www.teagasc.ie/forestry/advice/felling_licences.asp

Do I need a General Felling Licence or a Limited Felling Licence?

There are two types of Felling Licences. The type of licence required depends on the forest operation being proposed:

• A General Felling Licence is usually valid for five years and tends to be used for fellings on larger areas and all grant aided plantations. Replanting must take place on the same area that has been clearfelled. A management plan outlining all fellings for the entire rotation can be submitted, and resubmitted at the end of a 5 year period if no changes are required.
• A Limited Felling Licence is valid for two years and is mainly used for small fellings. This type of Licence must be used if the applicant is requesting not to replant or if nominating an alternative area to replant.

Both types of application should be accompanied by an inventory map and location map. In the case of site development, a copy of the full planning permission for the proposed house(s) must accompany the application. The Forest Service will not grant felling licences until the planning process has concluded.
All replanting must take place within 12 months of the date of expiry of the licence. Trees replanted must be maintained and protected by the owner of the land for 10 years following the date of replanting. If land under felling licence is sold, the purchaser of the land is also bound by any conditions included in the felling licence (e.g.: if someone fells trees and then sells the land the purchaser must replant if there is a replanting condition on the licence). It is the duty of the vendor to inform the purchaser of any licences attached to the land being sold.
A felling licence is a public document and copies of any felling licence granted for the area will be available for viewing at the local Garda Station.


this seems the relevant section

Note this sentence.... "In the case of site development, a copy of the full planning permission for the proposed house(s) must accompany the application."

tim

timfromtang

would that be a spot named shanbally wood yer lookin at??
tim

forestlover

would you know anything about it tim? We are currently looking a few different places but obviously want to check the ins an outs of all the spots first.

afatbollix

Would planning permission be a issue here? How would you get services to the house?

Before you buy any land I would make sure you could get planning from the local council before paying over anything!

Chemical Byrne

Services shouldn't be a problem. You might require extensive ducting which might cost a bit depending on distance from the road but it is totally doable. Wastewater treatment & disposal is something you need to check out though. You'd also want to be aware of whether the area you're building in is an SAC or not, given that it is an oak forest. By right you'd require a Habitats Directive Assessment if so.

Are you planning on using the felled timber as part of the building structure? If so it might be nigh on impossible to get an engineer or architect to certify it. As an engineer myself, I know most C.Engs would be very reluctant to sign off on anything that doesn't have a CE mark/agrement cert or other recognized standard.

All this needs to be sorted before you even consider buying the property.

And most of all, you need to investigate whether you'll get planning permission. Are you from the area originally & do you have family nearby? Do you run a farm nearby or do you have a local need? If the answer to these is no, then you can pretty much forget about planning permission, and the whole project.

timfromtang

forestlover wrote: »

would you know anything about it tim? We are currently looking a few different places but obviously want to check the ins an outs of all the spots first.

I helped a friend who was looking into buying shanbally wood in the end he opted for a different plot of forest. We looked into the potential to thin the forest, and thin again in 10 years with the aim of realising the purchase price by adding value to the timber before sale (portable sawmill and solar drier).
tim

barnaman

Any wood of type you describe is likely to be classed as semi-natural and chances of getting planning permission are close to zero I reckon. Also will be issues like access road in and access for services. Trees have to be cut for both and access road will need to have a clear area either side to allow traffic through safely. Also a planner could well want a substantial area clear both sides of road on safety grounds. ie tree falling on road blocking access to house for emergency sevices such as fire brigade. That leads me to another point will have to clear area to prevent trees falling on house and will be difficult getting insurance on a house in a wood as much greater risk of fire damage. Just to show the risk a farmer has to notify Guards and a wood owner if burning within one mile of a wood. Anyway if its Shanbally Wood its a Natural Heritage Area so that pretty much ends any idea of building there, see http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/resources/eng/Services/Water/Flooding/MCE0511Rp0003F01_Scoping%20Report.pdf[/u

barnaman

The ecological option is buy some land, build a house and plant a forest around it. You get a grant for it too!

Fiskar

barnaman wrote: »

The ecological option is buy some land, build a house and plant a forest around it. You get a grant for it too!

That make more sense

KingBrian2

forestlover wrote: »

Currently looking a piece of woodland to purchase. 20 + acres. The agent currently says there is a limited licence years to thin 50 % consisting of oak, ash, beech & sycamore. The main question is would we be able to remove some trees to clear a space to build a house (which we would use the trees we take down to build) or even remove some areas to start growing food. I know that if there is a grant attached to the forest then we would have to pay the grant back to take trees out but it doesn’t seem like there is any grant attached to the land so I'm no sure where we stand. Some of the trees are 100 years old. The agent we are dealing with is really slow to get back to us with info so I'm wondering maybe some of you here would know possibly.

Thanks

You can't just go and buy a forest.

Nekarsulm

http://touch.daft.ie/commercial/mount-kennedy-demesne-newtownmountkennedy-wicklow/226506/

KingBrian2 wrote: »

You can't just go and buy a forest.

Course you can. For the price of a car parking space in Dublin.

Chemical Byrne

You can. Why couldn't you?

Its just there are restrictions and limitations on what you can do with it.

KingBrian2

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

You can. Why couldn't you?

Its just there are restrictions and limitations on what you can do with it.

Yes restrictions and limitations designed to preserve our beautiful forests not turn them into urban crawls.

InTheTrees

We have about 70 acres of old woodland. I think it depends on the planning authority involved but I imagine getting permission to clear trees and also build a house would be costly.

You'd also need a septic tank?

timfromtang

InTheTrees wrote: »

We have about 70 acres of old woodland. I think it depends on the planning authority involved but I imagine getting permission to clear trees and also build a house would be costly.

You'd also need a septic tank?

well..................


or a compost loo
ref The humanure handbook by Joseph Jenkins
sawdust is what we use in ours
http://permaculturenews.org/2008/09/18/humanure-handbook-free-download/

timfromtang

ps
my missus just built us a new bespoke compost loo from planks from our forest.

forestlover

timfromtang wrote: »

well..................


or a compost loo
ref The humanure handbook by Joseph Jenkins
sawdust is what we use in ours


timfromtang

ps
my missus just built us a new bespoke compost loo from planks from our forest.

I have experience with composting and dry toilets. I would also envision a reed bed to deal with grey water but it seems from the research on planning in Ireland I can not find anybody that has successfully done this. If you look at the UK the planning laws seem more in tune with wanting to live much more sustainable then we are allowed here. It just seems awfully restricted. Tim have you done this successfully with help from local planners or have you had a septic tank installed aswell?

timfromtang

forestlover wrote: »

I have experience with composting and dry toilets. I would also envision a reed bed to deal with grey water but it seems from the research on planning in Ireland I can not find anybody that has successfully done this. If you look at the UK the planning laws seem more in tune with wanting to live much more sustainable then we are allowed here. It just seems awfully restricted. Tim have you done this successfully with help from local planners or have you had a septic tank installed aswell?

Successfully? what do you mean, our toilet system works beautifully. We have no septic tank.

tim

forestlover

timfromtang wrote: »

Successfully? what do you mean, our toilet system works beautifully. We have no septic tank.

tim

As in successful with planners approval, I have seen the system work wonderfully everywhere it is has been used.

InTheTrees

timfromtang wrote: »

Successfully? what do you mean, our toilet system works beautifully. We have no septic tank.

tim

What do you do with grey water?

barnaman

I would have strong doubts as to anything other than a contained septic tank passing planning see http://www.epa.ie/water/waterleg/#.ViVFRisgtng
and thats not even up to date. For farmers http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/si/31/made/en/pdf is even tighter. Compost etc toilets probably work perfectly and the reality was a ditch was the toilet until recently but iMO any planner will says with regard compost reeds etc thats hazardous material contaiminated with human faceal matter and a public etc health risk.

barnaman

http://www.epa.ie/water/wastewater/guidance/remed/#.ViVHHCsgtng

Most recent directly on compost etc toilets. Believe they are not approved as yet and most of Ireland is high permeable subsoil so can see this technology being very expensive and difficult to legally install in Ireland. Also the EPA's code of practice see here https://www.epa.ie/pubs/advice/water/wastewater/code%20of%20practice%20for%20single%20houses/Code%20of%20Practice%20Introduction%202010.pdf is only a code of practice and does not overrule any of the EU Water Protection Regulations. Would consult a solictitor and architect etc before installing these myself; the flats in Dublin show how eazy it is in Ireland to build stuff that it completley illegal and will catch someone out somewhere down the line.

timfromtang

InTheTrees wrote: »

What do you do with grey water?

we use a trench arch in the winter and recycle through the polytunnel in the growing season.

InTheTrees

timfromtang wrote: »

we use a trench arch in the winter and recycle through the polytunnel in the growing season.

Umm.

And in which Irish County did you get planning permission?