Future proof Home Charging

hexosan

I'm currently building a new house and I plan on getting an EV in the next 2yrs. I want to future proof the house now wth cabling to allow me have the best possible set up for home charging. Can anyone recommend what cabling I should run from the ESB panel outside the house to where I plan on installing the charging point.
The last thing I want is to be ripping up place in a few years because I forgot something.

I have a 3 phase supply ordered from the ESB and I also have PV panels planned for the roof.

Any thoughts

Because of the extra cost of getting 3 phase I would be more inclined to have it cabled and ready for when you actually need it . That's about the best way of future proofing.

I can't recommend out door cabling but I did run 32 amp twin and earth as far as the junction box from the consumer unit inside. then the spark wired it the rest of the way with another out door cable.

cros13

Currently in Tipp I have two 32A chargers currently run off a 20kW high capacity single phase supply. I plan on moving a three phase supply and feeding the two chargers from one phase, house from another and my server racks from the third phase.

It will cost a little bit more but in your case I'd cable for 22kw three phase to the charger location. The reason I didn't do this was a capacity issue with an existing duct. A 22kW three phase charger costs maybe 40-50 euro more than a 7.4kW, so if you have the supply there's no reason not to do it.

For a 30 meter run you'd need 63A 5x10mm2. Go for the thermosetting type rated to 90C or higher (because the sustained load is going to heat the cable a bit... better safe than sorry).

The big advantage of three-phase with solar PV is that if you have (or expand in the future to) sufficient panels you can feed up to 11kW into the grid.

I'm planning an 11kWp solar install in Tipp with supplementary power from a small 700W wind turbine and 2kW of microhydro. All being dependant on getting a feed-in tariff because very little of my use would line up with production.

I reckon you'll see a lot of 20 Kw DC chargers in the future for home installations, maybe not in Ireland but on the continent where 3 phase is the norm.

What is the Kw limit with 3 phase ?

A feed-in-tariff would be really great, I estimate via the solar PV calculators I would need 7-8 kwp of solar, the problem is storage, in winter you don't have enough and in Summer you're too much to store so with the feed-in-tariff all that solar in Summer goes to the grid and you buy back in winter, no need for expensive batteries.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, in Germany my Partner's parents have 14 kwp and in Summer they can generate up to 70 Kwh and in winter 6-7 and less, any snow then that's nil, so you can clearly see the difference, 70 Kwh is a big ass battery it would be good to nearly charge a tesla Model S. 70 Kwh is enough for 230 odd miles.

Where solar PV with battery storage works best is in countries with good sun every day and the day light hours are not much different winter/Summer this way battery storage works because you can work out pretty much exactly the amount of Kwh you expect to generate per day and size your storage accordingly , at our latitude the long Summer daylight hours make storage impractical to store for winter use.

Usually we have more constant wind in Ireland and that's a better bet and there's much more chance of generation at night, but wind turbines and installation is astronomical compared to Solar PV.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

What is the Kw limit with 3 phase ?

There isn't really a limit. It can be as much as you are willing to pay for. Realistically the low end domestic three phase supply would be a 29kW "farm supply" which is about the only reasonably priced option. Couple of steps up and the max would be a 150kW "light industrial" supply which in pretty much any area would be the biggest supply you could get without very substantial network build-out costs.

Deleted User wrote: »

Where solar PV with battery storage works best is in countries with good sun every day and the day light hours are not much different winter/Summer this way battery storage works because you can work out pretty much exactly the amount of Kwh you expect to generate per day and size your storage accordingly , at our latitude the long Summer daylight hours make storage impractical to store for winter use.

Depends on how you use the storage.... if the goal is to meet all your consumption then sure it's not practical here yet. But if the goal is to increase your self-consumption even a 2kWh battery can have a big impact and pay its way. I'm anxious to see the final EU pricing on the 7kWh daily cycle powerwall... the design reduces costs substantially as you don't need a full islanding inverter. In fact if they hit under €4k they will undercut many islanding inverters on their RRP before adding batteries.

Deleted User wrote: »

Usually we have more constant wind in Ireland and that's a better bet and there's much more chance of generation at night, but wind turbines and installation is astronomical compared to Solar PV.

Wind is really not that reliable in Ireland... sure, on average we get quite a lot but there are often long periods of time where wind generation is basically nil... whereas there's no such thing in Ireland as a day with no sunlight (remember that on cloudy days the light may be scattered by cloud but that doesn't necessarily mean a huge impact on PV production). We also don't get much snow here to cover panels. The real clincher is that at the moment, wind turbines in the 3 to 11 kW range cost at least four to five times the price of solar PV rated the same. The only reason i'm considering a 600 to 700W turbine is that there seems to be a pricing sweet spot at that mark and I want something to cover a chuck of the nighttime base load.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

Depends on how you use the storage.... if the goal is to meet all your consumption then sure it's not practical here yet. But if the goal is to increase your self-consumption even a 2kWh battery can have a big impact and pay its way. I'm anxious to see the final EU pricing on the 7kWh daily cycle powerwall... the design reduces costs substantially as you don't need a full islanding inverter. In fact if they hit under €4k they will undercut many islanding inverters on their RRP before adding batteries.

Everything helps but I still insist that without feed-in-tariff Solar PV isn't feasible in Ireland, the power wall, again suitable for countries with a pretty constant predictable amount of sun light and not much difference between Summer and Winter sunlight hours.

If you have a battery to fill in Ireland in Summer it would need to be very large to cover you through winter. Solar PV does work here and my calculated solar PV requirement would be about 8-9 Kwp to run the house and the Leaf for the year.

Problem No 1, I can't dump that amount of solar to the Grid on single phase, Problem 2, I'd have to pay for 3 phase and No 3 most Irish houses are usually much smaller than in Germany for instance and they usually have high pitched roofs with a lot more space.

Solar can make a big difference if we only had the Support from the ESB and the Government. even 3 Kwp on ever roof in Ireland would have a substantial impact on our dependency for foreign energy and clean up our grid.

electric cars can be the big storage system for the ESB, rather than pay wind energy companies when the wind doesn't blow or they have to be turned off because there is no demand, during the day all the solar can go into charging batteries and at night so too can the wind and they can take as required solar from your battery, you'll probably have control over the amount. All part of an advanced smart grid.

Wind generates up to 40% of our electricity but there are times it meets only 5% or less. Solar can greatly add to the green energy to the grid but it won't happen without storage.

cros13 wrote: »

Wind is really not that reliable in Ireland... sure, on average we get quite a lot but there are often long periods of time where wind generation is basically nil... whereas there's no such thing in Ireland as a day with no sunlight (remember that on cloudy days the light may be scattered by cloud but that doesn't necessarily mean a huge impact on PV production). We also don't get much snow here to cover panels. The real clincher is that at the moment, wind turbines in the 3 to 11 kW range cost at least four to five times the price of solar PV rated the same. The only reason i'm considering a 600 to 700W turbine is that there seems to be a pricing sweet spot at that mark and I want something to cover a chuck of the nighttime base load.

We need more, we are in one of the windiest spots in Europe, it does work but we need a lot more turbines preferable off-shore, we need a lot more solar in the mix. It can be done. But I suppose it's just easier to burn fossil fuels.

You will be very disappointed how little your solar array will generate on a cloudy day in winter.

I think you'd actually save more money by changing to Ev if you need to change the car anyway.

hexosan

There are rumours that the ESB and the government are considereing reintroducing a feed in tarrif from next year. There was a consultation group on it last month and a thread on the construction & planning forum.

I'm installing PV because I have to, to comply with part L of the building regulations of new builds.
One way or another there will be some form of FIT in the near future.

Metroboulot

If I were you I would run a large duct to the charging point that can support any future cabling and also site your electrical distribution panel and meter cabinet sited near where you intend to have the car charge points in the house design.

Also make sure that if it's a new build that you install a decent maximum allowed spec duct or even a spare duct underground to the ESB pole / connection point to future proof yourself for potential 3P and also for ESB fibre services.

(make sure you do similar for the "Eir" ducting too as it'll facilitate fibre)

Three phase is expensive now, but it's a bit of an arbitrary expense as many (all) urban areas are actually fully wired for three phase. ESB Networks just sets a crazy high charge for connection.

The only places you'd have issue with access to three phase are in rural / quasi rural one off housing.

I think if ESB are serious about this electric car project, they need to rethink their ridiculous 3P hook up charges.

hexosan

Metroboulot wrote: »

If I were you I would run a large duct to the charging point that can support any future cabling and also site your electrical distribution panel and meter cabinet sited near where you intend to have the car charge points in the house design.

Also make sure that if it's a new build that you install a decent maximum allowed spec duct or even a spare duct underground to the ESB pole / connection point to future proof yourself for potential 3P and also for ESB fibre services.

(make sure you do similar for the "Eir" ducting too as it'll facilitate fibre)

Three phase is expensive now, but it's a bit of an arbitrary expense as many (all) urban areas are actually fully wired for three phase. ESB Networks just sets a crazy high charge for connection.

The only places you'd have issue with access to three phase are in rural / quasi rural one off housing.

I think if ESB are serious about this electric car project, they need to rethink their ridiculous 3P hook up charges.

Standard single phase connection for a new house is €1,800 and if you opt for 3 phase it's €2,400.

My distribution panel is directly behind where I plan on installing the external charge point. I want to have everything set up for charging 2 EV's in the future.
Adding the extra ducts is a good item for both ESB & EIR

hexosan

How much are home chargers and do you need one for each car or can dual chargers be purchased.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

If you have a battery to fill in Ireland in Summer it would need to be very large to cover you through winter. Solar PV does work here and my calculated solar PV requirement would be about 8-9 Kwp to run the house and the Leaf for the year.

You don't need to meet all your needs... just some. Even without a FiT battery storage makes sense in Ireland. You certainly wouldn't store power from summer until winter, you just size your array for the winter production and the battery increases the % of self consumption.

Solar PV has already reached the point where in Ireland without FiT or storage if you have a load that lines up pretty well with peak production you can still have payback in under 5 years.

Deleted User wrote: »

Problem No 1, I can't dump that amount of solar to the Grid on single phase, Problem 2, I'd have to pay for 3 phase and No 3 most Irish houses are usually much smaller than in Germany for instance and they usually have high pitched roofs with a lot more space.

In my case I'm going ground mount.

Deleted User wrote: »

electric cars can be the big storage system for the ESB, rather than pay wind energy companies when the wind doesn't blow or they have to be turned off because there is no demand, during the day all the solar can go into charging batteries and at night so too can the wind and they can take as required solar from your battery, you'll probably have control over the amount. All part of an advanced smart grid.

The last thing I want is extra cycles on my EV battery for fixed energy storage. Incentivising load shedding fine... but feeding power back to the house like Nissan has suggested is a stupid idea.

The grid solution is a combination of a more distributed grid with local production, grid scale energy storage and variable pricing based on supply.

Deleted User wrote: »

Wind generates up to 40% of our electricity but there are times it meets only 5% or less. Solar can greatly add to the green energy to the grid but it won't happen without storage.

Sometimes substantially less than 5%. I've been watching the eirgrid data. There were several weeks this year when average output from the 2000MW of installed capacity we have was below 10MW (no I haven't missed a zero). So that's not only less than 5%of total energy production but 0.5% of the installed turbine capacity. Many times I saw daily averages drop below 4MW.

Here's the wind turbine production in Ireland over the last month:
Screen Shot 2015-10-09 at 11.46.42 a.m..png


And here is combined solar/wind production in germany covering the same period:
Screen Shot 2015-10-09 at 11.53.58 a.m..png


The solar energy spikes pretty much line up with peak energy demand and when you look closer what the actual % production levels are throughout the month you get this:

Screen Shot 2015-10-09 at 11.57.44 a.m..png

Deleted User wrote: »

You will be very disappointed how little your solar array will generate on a cloudy day in winter.

I've estimated my array size based on expected average weekly production in the dead of winter.

hexosan wrote: »

How much are home chargers and do you need one for each car or can dual chargers be purchased.

Ideally you would need a charger for each car. What you want to do is plug them both in when you get home and largely forget about them while they charge. Socketed Type 2 charge points (i.e. without an attached cable) are better due to reliability and improved compatibility (since *cough* certain EVs are using the american J1772 connector instead of the european standard Type 2). Since ESBs public infrastructure provides you with a Type 2 socket so everyone has the proper cable.

My preferred single phase 7.4kW charger is this Rolec:
http://www.nucharge.co.uk/shop/ev-charge-points.html/home-charge-points.html/rolec-wallpod-ev:-homecharge-32amp-type-2-universal-socket

The wall mount two socket version I got for the office is this:
http://www.nucharge.co.uk/shop/ev-charge-points.html/work-place-charge-points.html/rolec-ev-securicharge-2-x-32amp-type-2.html

And what I was looking at for a three pahse dual socket option was this:
http://www.nucharge.co.uk/shop/ev-charge-points.html/work-place-charge-points.html/rolec-ev-basiccharge-2-x-32amp-3phase-type-2.html

You do not need a specialised installer. Just use your regular electrician, it's the same as installing an outdoor socket with the following caveats:

1. It needs to be made clear to the electrician that 22kW could be drawn for periods of up to 8 hours.
2. the ground and the connection to it needs to be checked and double checked, the cars check the ground connection before and during charging and will refuse to charge if the ground connection isn't good.

Metroboulot

Because of the sustained draw it's more like an industrial installation than domestic.

Any electrician used to doing commercial installations would be able for it though! It's a bit beyond domestic wiring but not anything you wouldn't encounter in light industry or even retail and restaurants.

BoatMad

I hate when EVSEs are called chargers , unless they are mode 4 , they are not chargers.

Personally I will put in a tethered type1 cable /plug on my custom evse , eliminating a type 2 ( or type 1 socket ) on the evse improves overall reliability and I don't want to be dragging the cable from the boot all the time.

The installations are not complex 5-7kw is common in homes for showers etc. back up the circuit with its own RCBO appropriately rated

There should be no issues with ground continuity in any reasonable install. Ground is typically provided via neutral at the ESB box these days.

I wouldn't provision the distribution box for the EVSE until closer to the time and you know what you have exactly , but I would pull enough cables to support my intended max draw and also install some lighter wires between the distribution board and the projected evse point to support things like current transfer for load shedding etc. don't skimp on pulling wires now, as costs of retrofitting ducts and opening new chases , are far greater retrospectively

Note that the 22kw is three phase only , hence each wire carries nothing like that.

Running three phase capable wiring , ie 3 lives and a neutral , would also allow you to use the same cabling for 2 x single phase if that proved more useful.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

You don't need to meet all your needs... just some. Even without a FiT battery storage makes sense in Ireland. You certainly wouldn't store power from summer until winter, you just size your array for the winter production and the battery increases the % of self consumption.

No you don't need to meet all your demands if you're happy enough with that.

The problem with sizing your array for winter use is that you can't use or store all the much greater energy output in Summer.

cros13 wrote: »

Solar PV has already reached the point where in Ireland without FiT or storage if you have a load that lines up pretty well with peak production you can still have payback in under 5 years.

Yes this will work if you're home to be able to use this electricity but most of my high consuming devices, especially the Leaf are used at off peak hours at night when solar is of no use to me and if I have to buy battery storage it makes no sense considering the cheap cost of off peak electricity which is due to fall further this month I believe. The pay back takes a long time, the cost of installation of solar PV V night rate electricity makes Solar PV uneconomical without a F.I.T.

If I over size my array for winter and I can't use the many times greater energy in Summer when I'm not at home then what's the point ? that's very inefficient.

If a 14 Kwp array in Germany can generate just over 70 kwh per day in Summer and 3-6 in winter that's a serious waste without a F.I.T.

My partners's parents have storage heating and sell to the grid all the excess in Summer and buy it back for the heaters in winter but they get a pretty good F.I.T about 30 Cent per Kwh not 100% sure but I will check so the pay back is much shorter. The downside of this is that the tax payer has to subsidise it with higher electricity costs to begin with.

cros13 wrote: »

The last thing I want is extra cycles on my EV battery for fixed energy storage. Incentivising load shedding fine... but feeding power back to the house like Nissan has suggested is a stupid idea.

This is far into the future when 300+ Miles range electrics will be abundantly available and all the 80-90 Kwh batteries with 30-40 Kwh unused daily would be a serious mistake not to use this waste of valuable resources.

Tesla will have 740 miles range by 2020 and 600 by 2018.

Tesla's battery will last beyond 300,000 miles as it is and still be more than usable so if you've got energy in that battery why not sell it ?

Not to mention the 300 + Kwh in buses and more in trucks that will be available by then.

A few Kwh per day won't be detrimental to batteries of that size. Unlike the current 80 odd mile 24 Kwh batteries.

cros13 wrote: »

Sometimes substantially less than 5%. I've been watching the eirgrid data. There were several weeks this year when average output from the 2000MW of installed capacity we have was below 10MW (no I haven't missed a zero). So that's not only less than 5%of total energy production but 0.5% of the installed turbine capacity. Many times I saw daily averages drop below 4MW.

Sometimes less than 5% wind generation tonight 13.5% currently. But over all we have substantial wind reserves that are hardly being harvested because we've no storage and we need much more turbines off shore.

However we do need a proper balance between wind and solar PV but the obsession is that solar PV is no good in Ireland which is complete rubbish.

Afaik there are absolutely 0 large scale solar PV arrays planned for Ireland. The over all cost would be a lot cheaper with a lot less maintenance.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

The last thing I want is extra cycles on my EV battery for fixed energy storage. Incentivising load shedding fine... but feeding power back to the house like Nissan has suggested is a stupid idea.

The Nissan home inverter came about after the big earthquake, so in the event of a power cut people could still power their homes. Hardly a stupid idea.

In the future you'll be able to use the cheap night electricity stored in your EV and power your home when you come home in the evening to do your cooking etc. With hardly any effect on battery life.

My house consumption was about 6.6 kwh daily before the leaf so that's more than possible to achieve. Currently gone up to 15.5 Kwh since January.

BoatMad

[This is far into the future when 300+ Miles range electrics will be abundantly available and all the 80-90 Kwh batteries with 30-40 Kwh unused daily would be a serious mistake not to use this waste of valuable resources.

Tesla will have 740 miles range by 2020 and 600 by 2018.

Tesla's battery will last beyond 300,000 miles as it is and still be more than usable so if you've got energy in that battery why not sell it ?

Technology predictions of the future are almost always wrong. For comparisons watch " the mighty micro " ( you tube etc ) scripted in the late 70s

Tesla have announced the model 3 will be 200 mile range , and be released probably 2018 at very earliest .

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for 600-700 mile range. Li technology is pretty much at its kWh/kg density with small tweaks to improve efficiencies. 200-300 kWh batteries will be to big to use in EVs

We will see small incremental gains over the next 5 years.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The Nissan home inverter came about after the big earthquake, so in the event of a power cut people could still power their homes. Hardly a stupid idea.

In the future you'll be able to use the cheap night electricity stored in your EV and power your home when you come home in the evening to do your cooking etc. With hardly any effect on battery life.

I'll believe it when I see it.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Technology predictions of the future are almost always wrong. For comparisons watch " the mighty micro " ( you tube etc ) scripted in the late 70s

Tesla have announced the model 3 will be 200 mile range , and be released probably 2018 at very earliest .

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for 600-700 mile range. Li technology is pretty much at its kWh/kg density with small tweaks to improve efficiencies. 200-300 kWh batteries will be to big to use in EVs

We will see small incremental gains over the next 5 years.

The other thing is that we don't know the future, so we'll have to wait and see what Tesla come up with.

I don't believe we need such range and think it's a huge waste. I can't imagine how you would charge a 160 + Kwh battery

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I'll believe it when I see it.

You can already do it in Japan,

No reason you can't do it here either if it were available.

I could use the work charge point to power my home !

hexosan

Deleted User wrote: »

Afaik there are absolutely 0 large scale solar PV arrays planned for Ireland. The over all cost would be a lot cheaper with a lot less maintenance.

Wrong im afraid there are companies signing up farmers at the moment with over 30 acres to install mass PV farms in anticipation for a future FIT.
There was even a stand at the ploughing and its mentioned in threads on the C&P forum.

BoatMad

hexosan wrote: »

Wrong im afraid there are companies signing up farmers at the moment with over 30 acres to install mass PV farms in anticipation for a future FIT.
There was even a stand at the ploughing and its mentioned in threads on the C&P forum.

PV is undoubtably the future and far less visually offensive then wind , more effective more controllable , safer and more suited to micro generation

Wind is a failed stop gap in my opinion.

The lack of FiT is a huge issue , but I know aggressive FiT in Germany caused lots of issues and has been scaled back.

cros13

hexosan wrote: »

Wrong im afraid there are companies signing up farmers at the moment with over 30 acres to install mass PV farms in anticipation for a future FIT.
There was even a stand at the ploughing and its mentioned in threads on the C&P forum.

500 million being invested. I was talking to lightsource about them leasing some land from me. They want minimum 25 lease terms though and there is impact on framing related grant eligibility for the rest of the farm. I just leased to a neighbor for a shorter term instead, though I would have seriously considered leasing land for the solar farm if there had been more legal clarity.

Deleted User wrote: »

You can already do it in Japan,

No reason you can't do it here either if it were available.

I could use the work charge point to power my home !

It's still a bad idea. Every battery cycle has a value and people tend not to consider cycles from the non-primary use. The other issue is that a fixed battery with a BMS and cells designed for purpose is always going to beat a vehicle battery that has to move around and rapid charge.

BoatMad wrote: »

We will see small incremental gains over the next 5 years.

probably average 7% per annum increase in density. unless of course people figure out lithium air.

BoatMad wrote: »

I hate when EVSEs are called chargers , unless they are mode 4 , they are not chargers.

sure, but the whole thing is new to people... we're not exactly going to win hearts and minds by insisting on technical accuracy and ideological purity.

BoatMad wrote: »

Personally I will put in a tethered type1 cable /plug on my custom evse , eliminating a type 2 ( or type 1 socket ) on the evse improves overall reliability and I don't want to be dragging the cable from the boot all the time.

Tethered chargers fail more often than socketed. The cable is far more open to damage than a socket. That's been borne out by the experience of public charge point manufacturers who've seen much more service required for tethered chargers. You also lose the ability to charge a car with a proper type 2 connector... like the model 3. If you don't want to drag the cable from the boot buy another cable. J1772 (Type 1) is nasty american filth and the sooner it's banned the better. Type 2 gives three phase support, DC support, better weatherproofing and a better locking mechanism and connector.

BoatMad wrote: »

There should be no issues with ground continuity in any reasonable install. Ground is typically provided via neutral at the ESB box these days.

I've personally seen several grounding related issues with home EVSEs installed for other EV drivers. it's one of the most common issues. The car isn't looking for ground on the neutral, it's checking on the earth pin.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes this will work if you're home to be able to use this electricity but most of my high consuming devices, especially the Leaf are used at off peak hours at night when solar is of no use to me and if I have to buy battery storage it makes no sense considering the cheap cost of off peak electricity which is due to fall further this month I believe. The pay back takes a long time, the cost of installation of solar PV V night rate electricity makes Solar PV uneconomical without a F.I.T.

I'm in the same situation... I'm just pointing out that for people or businesses with suitable loads it's now economically feasible despite the lack of a FiT.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

The lack of FiT is a huge issue , but I know aggressive FiT in Germany caused lots of issues and has been scaled back.

It doesn't need to be a subsidy. I can make market price work. If they pay me the wholesale market price of the power at the time of generation that puts me well inside the 10 year payback on the capital cost.

The problem now is that they take the power and pay nothing.

At the time Germany started the subsidy and guarantee was needed because of the capital costs. Solar's capital costs have fallen so much that's no longer required.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

It doesn't need to be a subsidy. I can make market price work. If they pay me the wholesale market price of the power at the time of generation that puts me well inside the 10 year payback on the capital cost.

The problem now is that they take the power and pay nothing.

At the time Germany started the subsidy and guarantee was needed because of the capital costs. Solar's capital costs have fallen so much that's no longer required.

10 years is a long time for payback,

BoatMad

Tethered chargers fail more often than socketed. The cable is far more open to damage than a socket. That's been borne out by the experience of public charge point manufacturers who've seen much more service required for tethered chargers. You also lose the ability to charge a car with a proper type 2 connector... like the model 3. If you don't want to drag the cable from the boot buy another cable. J1772 (Type 1) is nasty american filth and the sooner it's banned the better. Type 2 gives three phase support, DC support, better weatherproofing and a better locking mechanism and connector.

Nasty American filth , as opposed to Alain mennekes opportunistic grab to displace US standards .!!!!

Type 1 is as good a socket for medium ( < 10 kW) charging as any , your comments are totally unfounded. The mennekes socket was brought in purely to support 3 phase charging , but DC charging is actually the future.

Type 1 has proper locking of the connector whereas mennekes has no latch , and optionally a shutter

Any EE , and I'm one , will tell you sockets are the least reliable part of any connection strategy. A glanded cable on the evse is more convenient, less likely to give trouble then sockets. Fraying is a different issue entirely and will also occur on socketed cables , it's suits public chargers because different cables are used hence fraying is spaced over multiple cables. The situation however would be near identical where the same cable was used socketed or not as fraying is a function of glanding and cable strain relief

I've personally seen several grounding related issues with home EVSEs installed for other EV drivers. it's one of the most common issues. The car isn't looking for ground on the neutral, it's checking on the earth pin.

You have quite frankly no idea how earth is established in a typical domestic supply , have a read of TN-C and TN-C-S systems .

PE continuity is an issue in the US. It's less of an issue in Europe where RCD protection is commonplace. ( which is why J1772 has ground tests in its standard )

I Know that j1772 test ground in the evse. I'm not sure the EV does it. Easy test to find out of course

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

It's still a bad idea. Every battery cycle has a value and people tend not to consider cycles from the non-primary use. The other issue is that a fixed battery with a BMS and cells designed for purpose is always going to beat a vehicle battery that has to move around and rapid charge.

With very large batteries 60 + Kwh that people will rarely use it makes no sense to have all that Kwh sitting doing nothing most of the time.

The amount of power (Kw) being pulled to supply the grid would have no impact to the battery or BMS.

Regarding cycling issues, with 60 + kwh batteries I don't see it being an issue, batteries will degrade anyway and it just so happens that the larger the battery the less you will notice capacity loss.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

10 years is a long time for payback,

sure... but I'm willing to accept that (in fact my calculations for my own setup would be 6 years, a good chunk of which would be down to hydro covering the base load and preventing me from having to buy much power at retail). And what about in 5 years when the capital costs are even lower? 5kWp of solar plus a grid tie inverter is less than €6,000 today ex. install. Roofs are cheap land to install them on.

People are talking about Solar PV project coming online this year on the equator that are producing power for 4c/kWh. Wholesale prices during daytime peak in the middle of summer here in Ireland have hit as high as 13c/kWh and average around 6c/kWh at midday on a weekday.

Forget about the panels themselves, what's the cost of a solar PV system in Ireland ?

hexosan

Panels are roughly €200 each, the inverter is another €600-€900, brackets and racking another €1200. So a 4kw 16 panel system is ballpark €5k

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

Nasty American filth , as opposed to Alain mennekes opportunistic grab to displace US standards .!!!!

To venture into explaining the joke... immediately above it I had posted:
"we're not exactly going to win hearts and minds by insisting on technical accuracy and ideological purity."
I was taking the piss...

BoatMad wrote: »

Type 1 is as good a socket for medium ( < 10 kW) charging as any , your comments are totally unfounded. The mennekes socket was brought in purely to support 3 phase charging , but DC charging is actually the future.

The OP is looking at installing three phase, buying an EV in a few years when 11-22kW and still home charged using AC Tesla Model 3s will be about. I have a preference for Type 2 both because I like the physical design (and I own two EVs, one that uses J1772 and one that uses type 2 mennekes, so I have experience of both to back my opinion) and because my next EV whether it's a Model S or Model 3 will probably have three phase 22kW charging. Type 2 mennekes can also deliver DC without the additional DC pins introduced by CCS.

BoatMad wrote: »

Type 1 has proper locking of the connector whereas mennekes has no latch , and optionally a shutter

Mennekes does lock... there's a locking actuator and a latch. both my car and my EVSEs lock the connector.

BoatMad wrote: »

Fraying is a different issue entirely and will also occur on socketed cables , it's suits public chargers because different cables are used hence fraying is spaced over multiple cables.

sure... but for the average person not building an EVSE a frayed tethered cable means an engineer visit or an RMA, which is the source of some of the problem. A cable related issue on a socketed EVSE can be fixed by a new cable... I do admit weaseling things a bit... it would have been fair to call me out on inherent bias in my example of EVSE manufacturers seeing higher service on tethered units because many of tethered public EVSE were installed early in rollouts and may have sat there with either existing issues or issues caused by sitting there for 3-4 years without any use or protection against vandals.

BoatMad wrote: »

I Know that j1772 test ground in the evse. I'm not sure the EV does it. Easy test to find out of course

I'm aware of TN-C and TN-C-S. To most people the EVSE is a black box, sometimes there are really simple issues.
In several cases I've found people being given a portable EVSE with Shuko plugs and using a 2-pin 10A travel adapter with no ground.

Deleted User wrote: »

Forget about the panels themselves, what's the cost of a solar PV system in Ireland ?

Well the cost of two lads to put on some roof clips and do a small bit of wiring in ireland is exorbitant because there's low demand and very few people doing it. But the predictive value is in the basic cost of the inverter and panels.

Better to look at the labor costs in the UK where there is an actual functioning market of installers. And in NI the installation costs for 5kWp are less than £1k.

hexosan

hexosan wrote: »

Panels are roughly €200 each, the inverter is another €600-€900, brackets and racking another €1200. So a 4kw 16 panel system is ballpark €5k

Yes but the installation is another matter, I know roughly the cost of the components.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but the installation is another matter, I know roughly the cost of the components.

Mount em yourself. It's not difficult

BoatMad

In several cases I've found people being given a portable EVSE with Shuko plugs and using a 2-pin 10A travel adapter with no ground.

Sure the RCD would save them , if not Darwin's law applies anyway. In your stated case obviously the evse in the cable wasn't performing a ground test

cros13

Even just covering doing the easy stuff like mounting the panels and then getting someone to do the electrical and conduit work if you are nervous.

BoatMad

The OP is looking at installing three phase, buying an EV in a few years when 11-22kW and still home charged using AC Tesla Model 3s will be about. I have a preference for Type 2 both because I like the physical design (and I own two EVs, one that uses J1772 and one that uses type 2 mennekes, so I have experience of both to back my opinion) and because my next EV whether it's a Model S or Model 3 will probably have three phase 22kW charging. Type 2 mennekes can also deliver DC without the additional DC pins introduced by CCS.

I don't see a future for in-car chargers.( other then emergency small ones ) It makes no sense to carry around a dead weight . DC charging will predominate and that will include home charging. Ultimately the EV will be supplied with a DC wall wart !! , electronics are cheap. As battery power increases the whole reasoning for in-car chargers falls apart.

The future is dc

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

In your stated case obviously the evse in the cable wasn't performing a ground test

Just refused to charge until a three-pin shuko adapter was used, so the portable EVSE was checking the ground. I'm fairly sure the car does too, seen some mentions of ground related errors from other european i3 owners.

J1772 became IEC 61851 mode 1 and I have a nagging half-memory that there were changes to the grounding requirements between the two. That's before mode 2 added the RCD to the EVSE.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't see a future for in-car chargers.( other then emergency small ones ) It makes no sense to carry around a dead weight . DC charging will predominate and that will include home charging. Ultimately the EV will be supplied with a DC wall wart !! , electronics are cheap. As battery power increases the whole reasoning for in-car chargers falls apart.

The future is dc

Sure... but we need economies of scale, standardisation and wide availability. At the moment people still need to be able to hook to AC at mom and dads house with the minimum of additional equipment.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

Sure... but we need economies of scale, standardisation and wide availability. At the moment people still need to be able to hook to AC at mom and dads house with the minimum of additional equipment.

Yes , but not 22kw AC charging. Single phase relatively low power will have a place for a while yet.

Ultimately EVs will need little on-route charging and where that is needed , it will be a high powered paid for DC charging facility.

You don't need standardised DC charging if the car company gives you the DC charger to mount on your wall.

Even today you can get medium power CHardemo units for about 3000 dollars a tiny percentage of a tesla .

But I agree in the meantime , it will be combinations , however I was informed recently the ESB only see fast DC charging as worth installing now.

cros13

I'm kinda coming up against some issues early because I own two EVs. Part of my objection to tethered chargers are that several times I've arrived at hotels and business having been assured they have a charger and low on juice to find a tethered charger with the wrong connector for the vehicle. It is really frustrating to have a perfectly good 32A EVSE sitting on the wall yet have to throw a extension cord out a 2nd story window, weatherproof all the connections to the best of my ability in driving rain at 2AM and charge at 8A.
Mode 3 on Type 2 mennekes is the EU standard, and if it's a socket everyone can use it. And the EU standard for DC is over type 2 or CCS. That's what's been submitted to CENELEC, that's what most vehicle manufacturers from Tesla to BMW to GM agree on, Nissan/Mitsubishi et al. just need to get with the program.

I don't look at an EVSE or DC charger as vehicle specific, it's more a piece of fixed infrastructure. I was mainly looking at smart evse because I have a vision of cementing the type 2 sockets into the wall.

ESBs biggest problem at the moment is a lack of resources for eCars. DC rapids are the place to spend those limited resources at the moment.

Long term it would be nice to see on-street charging return for apartment dwellers etc. but for the moment we need doubling up of rapids at popular locations, the odd ancient PoS SGTE replaced and expansion of CCS.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

however I was informed recently the ESB only see fast DC charging as worth installing now.

They shouldn't over look the advantages of AC.

Perhaps the AC points are not used that much ? With the 32 amp charger in the Leaf it makes them much more valuable to have. With the 16 amp you don't get nearly as useful charge. The Zoe charging at 22 Kw is really convenient.

I've to go to the airport Sunday night and I'm thinking about taking the Diesel. The Airport Topaz charger is in a horrible spot , what were they thinking ?

Anyway, if the short term had 32 amp EVSE's it would make charging a lot more convenient there on site but the 16 amp are absolutely useless for me. an 80% charge is going to be pretty tight getting back nearly 90 kms. So I either Charge to 90+ % or charge to 80% and again at Naas for 5-10 mins. Not so sure Z Germans would appreciate that.

So the easy thing to do is take the diesel for the 180 Km round trip. I'm half thinking about changing to the 30 kwh Leaf, but I would probably loose too much after just 1 year and 25,000 Odd kms . But something I will check out.

BoatMad

The siting of chargers is a different issue. The fact is even with a 6k6 charger the AC charge is too much of a delay, especially since few ACs have much in the way of roadside entertainment while you wait. I see from the list ESB have committed to8 or 10 more DC chargers including M11 gorey service ( brill ) . Certainly looking at east coast journeys , and a 30 kW leaf , I see no use for AC charging other then home, I simply haven't the that sort of time to spare. If I can't do the route via fast chargers I won't do it at all ( Excepting long stay , ie hotels etc )

As EVs increase the need for quick DC charging becomes even more acute , as you need the bloke to be gone in a reasonable time, not plugged for hour(s) or more

I think you need to have the car first and then decide whether you think getting into a charged car is more convenient than waiting for a DC charge or for someone to finish before you .

I have found several AC points very convenient. The option should be there.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you need to have the car first and then decide whether you think getting into a charged car is more convenient than waiting for a DC charge or for someone to finish before you .

I have found several AC points very convenient. The option should be there.

After 1000 km of very varied EV driving I'm happy I've characterised what I need. I' see almost no situation , unless forced , to access slow roadside AC charging. I simply won't make that kind of journey.

At home, absolutely,at present AC single phase charging is where it's at. ( as it is in hotels and other long stay situations )

I'm not discounting AC charging , just saying that it will be a minority of users outside long stay charging situations

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but the installation is another matter, I know roughly the cost of the components.

This diagram from Deutsche Bank is what I was looking for earlier in the conversation.
Just to give the current context costs are now below the 2016 estimate for good german equipment.
You can find chinese panels and inverters below the 2017 estimate.

That still doesn't tell me what it would cost to install by an Irish installer. Probably ripped off.

cros13

ah... sure....DIY... couple of youtube videos and a ladder....

what could go wrong?

Do you never sleep Cros?

hexosan

My roofer installed the brackets for €300 (there's a bit of work cutting slates around the flashing kit for each bracket), another €200-300 to install the racking & panels and the electrican will be another €100-200 to run the cabling and wire the inventor to the distribution panel.

So your looking at €800-1000 for the install. I priced a PV installer originally and I think he wanted €1200-1500 but that didn't include wiring up the invertor would of still needed the electrican for that.

hexosan

cros13 wrote: »

ah... sure....DIY... couple of youtube videos and a ladder....

what could go wrong?

I would agree that it's mainly a DIY job but I doubt the average DIYer would be capable of fitting the flashing kit around each bracket. Roofer had to cut three slates per flashing and refit slates flush. Not an easy job and its labour intensive. Plus last thing you want is your roof leaking after your new panels are installed.

Once the brackets are up its only a matter of bolts the racking to the brackets (not rocket science) then lift the panels up with teleporter (available for free to me) bolt the panels to the racking each one is plug and play clipped together and back to a flashing kit on the roof where the wires are ran inside to the attic where the invertor is located. Then the sparks takes over.