Planning in Mayo

Stanford

Hi All,

Anybody here familiar with planning permission policies for single house construction in the North West area of County Mayo that could give me some advice on Occupancy Clauses? General area is the Belmullet region.

No6

I don't think I ever did any houses up that way in my time but I do remember a lot of refusals up there due to no percolation. Your housing need requirements vary from townland to townland, check the Co Development plan, if you are looking at an area that is considered under pressure and are not from the area you may be in difficulty.

Stanford

Thanks No. 6.

I am confused by the County Development Plan. The Dev. Plan has the following general comment "" In an effort to minimise market opportunism in areas classified as Rural Areas under Strong Urban Influence, an occupancy condition, as set out below, will normally be attached to any grant of planning permission, requiring occupancy for a maximum of five years by the applicant, his or her family or by any person meeting housing need criteria"

However my site is in an area classified as "Structurally Weak" and in this regard the Plan says ".In areas classified as Structurally Weak Areas permanent residential development (urban and rural generated) will be
accommodated, in particular special consideration will be given to the provision of housing in rural areas that have sustained population loss since 1951, subject to good planning practice"

The Plan then goes on to say ""In Other Towns and Villages and Rural Villages in all rural areas or where the applicant proposes to replace or reuse an existing house or other structure such as a disused barn, church,
schoolhouse or other substantial building in any rural area the applicant will not be required to demonstrate a housing need and the development will be assessed on normal planning considerations only. An occupancy condition will not be attached to any such grant of permission"..

Needless to say I am totally confused, any advice gratefully received please.

In general my site is in a very rural area and is not under Urban pressure for satellite housing development, I am concerned that approaching the local planner may only raise the hare! .

Angry bird

If it is a structurally weak area, that means open to anyone, local need nothing to do with it, and generally no occupancy clause. Therefore looking at siting, design, percolation tests, access and sight lines at entrance, any impact on neighbours, surface water attenuation etc.

The Sidewards Man

Brown envelope to your local Councillor will do wonders.

Stanford

Angry Bird,

I am inclined to agree with you and this is my interpretation of the situation as well, all the planning issues you mention have been well dealt with in the Application. However my Architect met the Local Area Planner before submission and was advised that there was a 50/50 chance of an Occupancy Clause being imposed....not very scientific!! Seems to be if the guy wakes up in a bad mood that morning he might or might not recommend the clause.

My problem is that by the time I get to know about any such clause it will be via the decision to grant a permission and then my only recourse is an appeal to Bord Pleanala, maybe I should man up and get my Architect to meet the planner again at the risk of raising the hare?

Stanford

Sideways Man,

Careful with this kind of advice, all local Councillors are now running scared because of the new Lobbying Act..!!

Angry bird

Not sure why it would be 50/50 in a weak area, don't know how they operate in Mayo but must be a reason why it is being considered, and sure see can you find out why.

BryanF

Stanford wrote: »

Angry Bird,

I am inclined to agree with you and this is my interpretation of the situation as well, all the planning issues you mention have been well dealt with in the Application. However my Architect met the Local Area Planner before submission and was advised that there was a 50/50 chance of an Occupancy Clause being imposed....not very scientific!! Seems to be if the guy wakes up in a bad mood that morning he might or might not recommend the clause.

My problem is that by the time I get to know about any such clause it will be via the decision to grant a permission and then my only recourse is an appeal to Bord Pleanala, maybe I should man up and get my Architect to meet the planner again at the risk of raising the hare?

Your architect could approach the senior planner and seek clarity. S/he may not get any but it's silly of the planner to say '50/50' those terms should be left for the betting shop.

BryanF

Stanford wrote: »

Sideways Man,

Careful with this kind of advice, all local Councillors are now running scared because of the new Lobbying Act..!!

interesting act. Id like to see it discussed on the legal forum.

Stanford

Here is a link to a piece on the Irish Planning Institute on lobbying in the context of planning and development

www.ipi.ie/news/latest-news/regulation-lobbying-and-planning

Stanford

Here is the extract from the County Development Plan which applies to the area in which I am seeking planning for one house.

"In areas classified as Structurally Weak Areas permanent residential development (urban and rural generated) will be accommodated, in particular special consideration will be given to the provision of housing in rural areas that have sustained population loss since 1951, subject to good planning practice."

I have no idea why the Local Planner is even talking about an Occupancy Clause.

No6

In Mayo they did a fudge, surprise surprise at the time of the adoption of the last Co Development Plan, There is a list somewhere of all the townlands considered structurally weak, if the townland you are proposing to build on is included then you are fine.

Where did the planner discuss an occupancy clause with you? if it was the public area planner meetings in your area office just make sure the planner you were talking to is the actual area planner and not someone else filling in from another area where occupancy clauses are required or just appointed to the area!

Stanford

A fudge? Surprise surprise indeed, I never met the Planner concerned myself but my Architect met her at one of the local area meetings in Belmullet but it was not recorded as a formal pre-planning meeting, she is definitely the local planner for the area where my site is located, there is also a large map attached to the County Development Plan showing Structurally Weak Areas, my site is located in this area and there is no mention of Occupancy Clauses, in fact the Plan states that housing will be encouraged in these areas especially where emigration has been a feature over the years subject only to the other normal planning considerations.

I have no idea of where she pulled this Occupancy Clause out of because the 2005 Dept.Guidelines mention that it is only to be used in areas under pressure where people need housing due to family, work, illness, farmer's children etc. to curtail property speculation. A 2008 Circular from the Dept. ((SP 5-08) to all Councils reveals that they were instructed that this clause could prove discrimination at EU level in that it favours certain categories of groups as mentioned above and hence could be illegal as people are entitled to live where they want subject not to class but to proper planning considerations. The extract from the Circular reads as follows:

"It is important to emphasise that all planning applications for houses in rural areas, regardless of where the applicant comes from or whether they qualify under specific criteria, must continue to be determined on the basis of the proper planning and sustainable development of the area, in accordance with development plan policies regarding over-arching environmental concerns, including the protection of natural assets, landscape, siting and design, traffic safety etc.".

Do you think I should confront the planner and ask as to why an occupancy clause is even under consideration? The downside of not doing this is to possibly end up appealing to Bord Pleanala, I would like to nip this in the bud now

BryanF

Best to formalise pre-planning meeting with you/arch/local planner in attendance

Stanford

The application was lodged on 1st October so no room for a pre-planning meeting. I agree however that I need to formally get my Architect to ask why an Occupancy Clause is even a possibility in an area which is defined as a "Structurally Weak Rural Area", this business of a "50/50" chance of the clause is nonsense, the application of such a clause must have a basis in planning considerations as set out by the County Development Plan and surely cannot be at the whim of a planner who might just wake up on a bad day and decide to be vindictive to an Applicant who is not from the area.

Thanks for all the advice, now I know why "stroke politics" gets things done in this country!!

db

It sounds like the planner did not have any details of the application when the architect discussed it with him and rather than say something he might be held to later gave a non-committal answer on whether there would be an occupancy clause.

Why would you have such an objection to an occupancy clause in any case, it sounds like you would just be restricted to not selling the house for 5-7 years?

covey09

As far as i know all planning permissions for rural one off house will have a occupancy clause in mayo at the moment. Ive been in to a few pre-planing meeting and they have been fair and tell you then requirement that must be met. I was going to buy a site but found the PP relates to the applicant and the site. The clauses are just added to reduce speculation and holidays home....which is good i think

Stanford

While I don't disagree with you Covey09, there must be good reasons stated in the County Development Plan for applying an occupancy clause but the Plan states that rural one off houses will be permitted in areas which are designated as "Structurally Weak Rural Areas" and my site is located in such an area

Stanford

db, I inherited the site from my late Uncle and I live in Limerick and so have no intention either of moving to mayo or building a holiday home, I'm simply trying to maximise the return from the sale of the site which would be enhanced if it had planning permission.

db

Why not sell the site subject to planning? It would be unusual for someone to buy a site off you with planning for a house of your design, especially if there were no restrictions on them getting planning themselves. If you are planning to build the house and then sell it, I can't see you selling it for more than it will cost you to build it.

BryanF

Stanford wrote: »

db, I inherited the site from my late Uncle and I live in Limerick and so have no intention either of moving to mayo or building a holiday home, I'm simply trying to maximise the return from the sale of the site which would be enhanced if it had planning permission.

so this is a speculative venture!
Hence why all rural dwellings should have an Occupancy Clause imo

celticman

I have had my planning request refused by the area planner [snip]. After spending a lot of time and money on an Architect with a few iterations of major design changes as the area planner suggested that only an old cottage design would be possible + percolation tests and then another major fee on a Flora and Fauna survey and report due to a cranky neighbor who does not even live in the locality I was eventually refused permission. This is in a very rural area in Blacksod ; Belmullett. This area has been devastated due to migration over the past century so much so that the village has all but gone. Just one pub remains and it is barely surviving. All the small shops are gone and folks have to travel 13 Miles to Belmullett to get supplies.

I was moving back to the family farm that was left to my brother and I. I have lived abroad and was returning home to retire. The planning authority have given themselves the right to determine who is allowed to live their lives on our own land and mandate the design for one Vs another while all around the area are houses of all shapes and styles.

The same authority but different planner gave permission to another neighbor to build the style of dormer house my architect first proposed for me but then at a meeting in Belmullett town the chief area planner indicated that my plan would be refused as it was not traditional enough in design for the area.....!!!!

After the Planners saw that I had farm land in another area which is not in the same village as my brother and cousins they indicated that I apply to build there instead, After producing a Dr. Letter as to why I should be near my family on medical grounds , they still refused permission.

In a rural village with a dwindling population one would expect our government see that I am willing to re-invest in the community by building a family home and entertain my family and friends.

Perhaps in hindsight I should have greased the palms of councillors and officials but I was hoping that the Emerald Isle had moved beyond that scourge and treated all citizens equally.

Ceticman.

nice_guy80

Take photos of every house in the area not of 'cottage' design

get yourself a planning consultant on a set fee
and appeal to Bord Pleanala

the cranky neighbour probably objected due to something way in the past to do with the land or a previous family feud.