Help on the purpose of the LSR slower than MP

RICHIE-RICH

I am slightly conflicted in my head concerning the pace of LSR, in terms of long distances /marathon training
Most training plans advise that your easy days should be easy and your hard days hard. Have a specific purpose - speed, endurance, etc. This I can get.
What I cannot fully understand is the theory of running the bulk of your long runs at MP+90 seconds or similar. If you are planning to run a 3:30 marathon (8 min/mile pace), then they would say that you that your LSR should be 9:30 pace. (I know some plans have you run a section of LSR at MP, but not all). Also most plans restrict the amount of time spent running faster than MP to approx 10%
Can someone tell me what I am not getting about this? Surely if you train your body to run 20 miles at 9:30min pace, then it'll be over stressed to run 26 at 8 min pace?

Is the theory that if you regularly and cumulatively stress your body to run at 9 min pace, with some bits at faster pace, then it will have adapted to thinking that the 9:30 min pace is "very easy", and so it can comfortably increase pace on race day to 8 min without serious stress on system?

A marathon is a LONG run. Most people don't get enough opportunity to test the faster pace theory out (and are explicitly warned off doing so), except on race day, so they'll never know if the pace is right until mile 22 or so -sometimes too late!

What am I missing here?

Krusty_Clown

If your marathon pace is the same pace as your generic easy/steady runs, then there's no reason why you can't do them at marathon pace, but it also means that you may be under-performing in terms of your marathon target and your marathon training. Running a good marathon is not about completing the distance at easy pace. It is about challenging yourself to run the marathon distance as quickly as you possibly can.

If you feel that you can comfortably run 20-22 miles at marathon pace, then you are likely doing yourself a disservice. I find 15 miles at marathon pace to be extremely challenging (and that's with steady run breaks in between blocks of MP miles). After all, if you can manage 22 miles at MP, why not just keep going for the additional 4 miles and consider your target completed?

Long runs don't have to be done at plodding pace. Ideally they should include some variety that provides different levels and types of stress, such as:
1) Long easy run to cover the amount of time you expect to run for the marathon (adjust downwards for targets greater than 3:30).
2) Progression runs, where you gradually pick up the pace to run at marathon pace or faster towards the end of your run.
3) Alternating marathon pace and easy pace (e.g. 3MP - 1E - 3MP - 1E etc).
4) Long run with marathon pace, e.g.:
5 Easy + 10 @MP + 2 Easy
3 Easy + 12@MP + 2 Easy
2 Easy + 15@MP + 2 Easy
5) Alternative MP strategies, such as:
2 Easy + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 @ MP with 90 seconds easy jog
5 x 3 miles @MP with 800m steady

If you don't feel like you are getting the necessary quality, then there are many options to re-invest some of your training towards your goal, but I'd first start by looking at your marathon target and seeing if it is appropriate for your ability and the training you have done.

RICHIE-RICH

But what is the overall goal, in terms of being able to hit a prescribed MP, of being able to run say 20 miles easy, with 10 at MP, if you are required to run 26 at MP?

I am trying to figure out the rationale for so many easy miles at an effort much less than MP.

On Marathon day you are required to run 26 miles at MP (by definition), so why not train more than 10-15% at MP.?
Should you not be running 60-70% of your weekly mileage at MP?
That way, your body knows what MP is, and it wont go into shock at having to run 26 of them at that pace.
If your longest run is 20 with 10 MP, then how does your body adapt/accept that it now has to go 26 at MP, with none below MP.
Does this make sense, or have I completely missed out on something here?
If its obvious, then please tell me, but my brain is not grasping something.

menoscemo

If you are running 60-70% of your weekly mileage at MP then I would say you are either not running enough miles or your PMP is very soft.
How many miles per week would you run and how does you Marathon target stack up against your other PBs?

If you are really trained well for a Marathon then your MP is probably only going to be 10-20seconds/ mile slower than your HMP and 25-35 seconds/mile slower than 10k pace. So if you are running 70+ miles per week them running such a high % at MP or faster would almost certainly break you IMO

Murph_D

Here's a basic article about the logic and purpose of the LSR:

http://www.runnersworld.com/for-beginners-only/how-slow-should-my-long-runs-be

MojoMaker

Your PMP is very soft OP, nothing more mysterious here.

Your long easy runs should be slower than your race pace otherwise your race pace is too slow - you should not be able to comfortably bang out 22 miles at race pace in one go every week - then it isn't actually 'race' pace

However if you are contemplating a marathon you should of course be able to bang out 22 miles at a relatively slow steady pace any given week, especially after a decent training block.

My guess is you are just attempting to finish the marathon (which is essentially equivalent to a LSR for you ) rather than race from A-B in the quickest possible time over a course measuring 26.2 miles. Am I right?

sconhome

Depends on the quality of the plan, the goal, the experience behind the runner.

In some basic plans LSR are just about time on the feet and getting used to 3/4 hours running. In more advanced plans a 'LSR' will be a progression of pace to test physical conditioning and mental resolve as the going gets tough.

A lot of customised plans will factor in the training stress cumulative effect of training weeks and balance the LSR stress accordingly.

Similarly the week you run your 26.2 at MP your overall mileage will be down to accomodate the stress of the marathon.

Myles Splitz

Getting used to running at race pace is not always adaptation.

Conditioning the body to find a pace easy and adapting to be working at the right levels at that pace are completely different.

In terms of the easy long runs there are a number of reasons for it that have benefits which correlate to a faster marathon.

- Recovery - If your at race effort for 20 miles at a weekend you will take alot longer to recover. While it is more specific to the race the more recovery means you miss chances to stress the body mid week also


- Builds capillaries which improves blood supply to the muscles - more oxygenated blood being pumped in the increase ability to work aerobically

- Mitochondrial development - energy generators within the muscles to, increase here means increased efficiency and using less energy for same output

- Fueling - Easy intensity will work on utilizing fat as a fuel source as well as developing glycogen storage efficiency.

While common sense would usual back up the idea of practice making perfect each type of run has there own pro's and cons and have to be weighed up in terms of benefits, risks, recovery time needed and how they compliment each other.

spurscormac

I have seen a number of runners (at the non pointy end of the race) train hard for marathons, they put in great mileage, speed sessions, etc, but very often run their long runs at too fast a pace.
The effect these ever increasing long easy hard runs have builds up over time and very often by the time the marathon comes around, they fail to perform to the expected ability.
They can't understand why, they've worked hard, done all the mileage etc.

The problem is, they've not given the body enough time to recover from the supposed LSR, because they haven't run it slowly enough and have overstressed their body.
The club speed session on the track comes along early in the week, and they push themselves there without having fully recovered from Sunday.

As Myles Splitz points out, each type of run has its pros & cons, so a good mixture of these will stand you in good stead.

*Disclaimer: I have never run a marathon, but have listened to friends who have trained & failed to reach goals, and others who have hit them. The difference in their training effort is usually glaringly obvious. Those that miss out have pushed too hard on most sessions, those that hit their times have done the training as prescribed, hard = hard, easy = easy.

Clearlier

RICHIE-RICH wrote: »

What I cannot fully understand is the theory of running the bulk of your long runs at MP+90 seconds or similar. If you are planning to run a 3:30 marathon (8 min/mile pace), then they would say that you that your LSR should be 9:30 pace. (I know some plans have you run a section of LSR at MP, but not all). Also most plans restrict the amount of time spent running faster than MP to approx 10%
Can someone tell me what I am not getting about this? Surely if you train your body to run 20 miles at 9:30min pace, then it'll be over stressed to run 26 at 8 min pace?

Just to mention that it's more like a range of between MP+45 and MP+90. Typically you'll start out at the slow end of that and if you're feeling fresh you'll pick it up an an earlyish stage, if you've raced the day before you'll leave it at + 90 and if you're somewhere in between you'll do it as a progression run. If you've new to runs of this length you'll possibly start off by just running the distance and worry about pace at a later date.

RICHIE-RICH

I guess my query was in the abstract , not an analysis of any specific training pace- If you look at any of the JD/McMilliam formulas, for any given MP, the easy run pace is significantly lower(by approx 60-90 sec per mile).

I would have thought that, logically, if you are expected to run 26 miles at a certain pace, you should train at this pace more often than one which significantly slower.

In the JD 55 18 week plan, there are are only 2 Long runs at which you insert MP (16 w 12 MP, and 18 w 14MP). I know there are other days in which you put in MP efforts, of various lengths but if you look at the Long runs they simply increase in length, and the normal advice is to run these easy at a pace significantly less than MP (unless told otherwise by the plan).

In this sense I cannot reconcile the fact that you go for a 20 mile run at an easy pace, and then 3 weeks later, you must go 6 miles longer and faster (if you want to achieve a certain goal).

Perhaps I have already answered my own question if its the cumulative effect of the weeks of training, and while the 20 miles LSR should feel relatively easy, the 26 miles at the faster pace will be "un-comfortably easy" due to the mileage already done.

I think I need to go for a run now.....

RayCun

during the training period, when you go for an 18 mile run, it has to be with the plan of running more the next day, and the day after, and again, and another long run the following weekend. On and on for weeks in either direction there are lots and lots of miles of running - and that quantity of miles is necessary for adaption. If you run too many of those miles at marathon pace or faster you will get exhausted or injured. You run at PMP+10% because that is all the effort you can spare for that particular day.

When it comes to the marathon, behind you will be a couple of weeks of taper, decreasing mileage and recovery, and ahead of you is a few weeks of not being able to walk gentle recovery. So you can put everything in to that day's run.
It won't be 'uncomfortably-easy' btw The first 10 miles or so will feel relatively easy (which is why so many people go too fast), the next 10 will be uncomfortable, and the last 6 will be something else entirely :pac:

RICHIE-RICH

RayCun wrote: »

It won't be 'uncomfortably-easy' btw The first 10 miles or so will feel relatively easy (which is why so many people go too fast), the next 10 will be uncomfortable, and the last 6 will be something else entirely :pac:

Poor choice of words there I know.

I have 6 marathons (including one IM marathon) under my belt. Believe me, I know the pain the last 6 miles.

In the past few weeks, I've been itching to do another one, and looking at the PD 18/55 plan got me thinking about the rationale behind the long run days. Perhaps I overthunk it !
When I analysed my current level of fitness, based on recent races, I was curious about the seeming disparity between goal pace and easy pace - in my case 90 odd sec.

This lead me to consider previous training cycles and what went wrong/right.

For my next one (if I can knuckle down to train) I'll take my easy days much easier than before.

MrMacPhisto

RICHIE-RICH wrote: »

Poor choice of words there I know.

I have 6 marathons (including one IM marathon) under my belt. Believe me, I know the pain the last 6 miles.

In the past few weeks, I've been itching to do another one, and looking at the PD 18/55 plan got me thinking about the rationale behind the long run days. Perhaps I overthunk it !
When I analysed my current level of fitness, based on recent races, I was curious about the seeming disparity between goal pace and easy pace - in my case 90 odd sec.

This lead me to consider previous training cycles and what went wrong/right.

For my next one (if I can knuckle down to train) I'll take my easy days muceasier than before.

Do you have the P&D book? I think the rationale and answers you seek are in the 155 pages prior to the 18wk55mile plan.