Two unclear sentences

Irish Stones

I'm Italian and I am reading a book. But I have found something not clear to me.
I have these two sentences:

1. "Still to be seen is the foundation of a castle"
I'm in doubt... Does it mean that this foundation can STILL be seen or that this foundation hasn't been seen YET?

2. "We need not advert to the opinions that people must form of the order in this place, by any member high or low of which animals are permitted to be littered within this yard"
I'm a bit confused here. I think that it could mean something like "We shouldn't be influenced by what other people think of how our order is managed over here..."
but the second part is a bit fuzzy to me.
Could anybody please rephrase the whole sentence in a clearer form for me?
Thanks so much!

ballyargus

First sentence can be interpreted either way. It depends on the context of the sentence.

Second sentence is a steaming pile of ****. I wouldn't even waste time on it

Irish Stones

ballyargus wrote: »

First sentence can be interpreted either way. It depends on the context on the sentence.

There isn't much context around... The sentence begins and ends like that. It's also the first line of a chapter in this book. Later on it says that a nearby building was there two centuries ago, and a church was there too though no trace of it remains.
So, now I don't know if these foundations are still there or they're lost...

Second sentence is a steaming pile of ****. I wouldn't even waste time on it

Do you mean that it makes no sense at all?
Or that it's unintelligible? Please, keep in mind that this sentence comes from a mid 1800's text.

Thanks!

pillphil

Irish Stones wrote: »

There isn't much context around... The sentence begins and ends like that. It's also the first line of a chapter in this book. Later on it says that a nearby building was there two centuries ago, and a church was there too though no trace of it remains.
So, now I don't know if these foundations are still there or they're lost...



Do you mean that it makes no sense at all?
Or that it's unintelligible? Please, keep in mind that this sentence comes from a mid 1800's text.

Thanks!

Sounds like it means that the foundation can still be seen. "Still to be seen" otherwise would mean it's over there and I just haven't gone to look at it yet.

We don't need to call attention to the opinions that people (high or low) must form about the state of this place and about which animals are allowed to be born (or kept?) in this yard.

That's the closest I can get to making it make sense.

Edit:
You could be right about order being an order of monks or something and member high or low referring to members of the order.

Irish Stones

pillphil wrote: »

Sounds like it means that the foundation can still be seen. "Still to be seen" otherwise would mean it's over there and I just haven't gone to look at it yet.

So either way I might understand that the foundation IS there.

We don't need to call attention to the opinions that people (high or low) must form about the state of this place and about which animals are allowed to be born (or kept?) in this yard.

That's the closest I can get to making it make sense.

Edit:
You could be right about order being an order of monks or something and member high or low referring to members of the order.

Can the term "order" be used to indicate the society in a wider sense?
"We don't need to call [or to draw] attention to the opinions that people must form about a society whose members, high or low (in the social class), allow animals to be born in this yard"

Thanks!

The second sentence sounds like it was run through several languages on google translate and back to english

"Still to be seen" in general I would understand to mean "it remains to be seen" i.e. "we don't know yet". Given the context though it seems to be implying "you can still see them".
"Foundations of a castle can still be seen" is how I would write it really.

Irish Stones

bluewolf wrote: »

The second sentence sounds like it was run through several languages on google translate and back to english

Supposedly it comes directly from an old publication. The references for these lines are from a "Munster News", Sept 1863.

"Still to be seen" in general I would understand to mean "it remains to be seen" i.e. "we don't know yet". Given the context though it seems to be implying "you can still see them".
"Foundations of a castle can still be seen" is how I would write it really.

Thanks! I'll take it as "the foundation can still be seen".

pillphil

Is there any more context for the second line?

ballyargus

Thinking about the second sentence I think I means that "we should not give sway to the idea that there need be an order(or hierarchy) in this place. That people(highborn, lowborn) and animals can mingle in the yard

Irish Stones

pillphil wrote: »

Is there any more context for the second line?

The sentence before reads:
The place around is unprotected by a fence to prohibit the intrusion of cattle; and these may tread and feed all over...
We don't need to advert... etc...

pillphil

I think your second attempt was close

"We don't need to call [or to draw] attention to the opinions that people must form about a society whose members, high or low (in the social class), allow animals to be born in this yard"

Irish Stones

ballyargus wrote: »

Thinking about the second sentence I think I means that "we should not give sway to the idea that there need be an order(or hierarchy) in this place. That people(highborn, lowborn) and animals can mingle in the yard

I don't think that "mingle" was the intended meaning of the sentence. I think it's closer to "high class people and low class people allow animals to give birth in that yard" giving the idea of a social decaying and poor respect for the places.

pillphil

Although I think it might mean more use as bedding and *ahem* relieving themselves instead of ( or as well as) birthing.

Irish Stones

pillphil wrote: »

Although I think it might mean more use as bedding and sh1tting and pi$$ing instead of ( or as well as) birthing.

Shouldn't it have been
"...animals are permitted to litter within this yard"
rather than
"...animals are permitted to be littered within this yard" ?

pillphil

Irish Stones wrote: »

Shouldn't it have been
"...animals are permitted to litter within this yard"
rather than
"...animals are permitted to be littered within this yard" ?

archaic
provide (a horse or other animal) with litter as bedding.

It's not quite the same meaning as we use now.

Irish Stones

pillphil wrote: »

It's not quite the same meaning as we use now.

So it might mean that "animals are provided with their own litter (or bedding) in that yard", and we might understand that those animals do "their needs" on that litter.
It can make sense.

pillphil

Irish Stones wrote: »

So it might mean that "animals are provided with their own litter (or bedding) in that yard", and we might understand that those animals do "their needs" on that litter.

I think this is correct, the litter can be for sleeping on or just absorbing "their needs."

Bonus points for "their needs", I couldn't think of a polite way to say it. :pac:

Irish Stones

pillphil wrote: »

Bonus points for "their needs", I couldn't think of a polite way to say it. :pac:

It's the same polite way we use over here in Italy, "i loro bisogni", literally "their needs" :pac:

Thanks for your help, we should have solved that.
I still have a very little doubt about those foundations

MathsManiac

Also, "order" might be part of the phrase "order of this place" rather than referring to an order in the sense of a society - "the order of this place" seems likely to me to refer to "the state of this place"

"Sure I won't even talk to you about what anyone would think of the state of this place, no matter what kind of a scruffy git they were."

Irish Stones

MathsManiac wrote: »

Also, "order" might be part of the phrase "order of this place" rather than referring to an order in the sense of a society - "the order of this place" seems likely to me to refer to "the state of this place"

"Sure I won't even talk to you about what anyone would think of the state of this place, no matter what kind of a scruffy git they were."

So are you saying that it might be
"We don't need to call attention to the opinions that people must form about the state (conditions) of this place, where people of high or low position (in the social class), allow their animals to be born (or to litter/waste) in this yard"

How does it sound?

New Home

"Still to be seen is the foundation of a castle"
I'm in doubt... Does it mean that this foundation can STILL be seen or that this foundation hasn't been seen YET?

I'd say this means that the foundation is visible, otherwise they would have written ''Yet to be seen is the foundation of a castle"

I agree with the person who said that the second sentence seems like it's gone through google translate a few times, or even the old Babelfish... I know a German guy -whose English wasn't the best- who writes sentences like that in his emails.... but I probably need to switch on my 1800s brain to understand it...

MathsManiac

Is the punctuation in the original text exactly as you gave it in your first post?

Irish Stones

MathsManiac wrote: »

Is the punctuation in the original text exactly as you gave it in your first post?

Yes, it's exactly as on the book.
Do you think that there's something in the wrong place?

Irish Stones

New Home wrote: »

I'd say this means that the foundation is visible, otherwise they would have written ''Yet to be seen is the foundation of a castle"

Your observation is correct. Though I am/was rather sure that in some sentences STILL can have the same meaning of YET.
That's why I was in doubt.

MathsManiac

Irish Stones wrote: »

Yes, it's exactly as on the book.
Do you think that there's something in the wrong place?

If it was punctuated better, it might make it easier discern the intended syntactic structure of the sentence, which is quite muddled as it stands.

As it stands, the antecedent of the phrase "of which" must be either "place" or "order". It seems unlikely (though possible) that one would be speaking of the members of a place, so this suggests that the antecedent is "order". This then contradicts my earlier suggestion that "order in this place" might be a phrase meaning "state of this place", and instead supports the suggestion by others that it refers to a religious order or societal grouping.

Structurally, then, the latter part of the sentence implies that members of this order (who may be "high" or "low" in standing) permit the animals to be littered here.

So, the whole sentence may mean:
This place belongs to some kind of order. All members of this order, irrespective of their standing, permit animals to be littered here. We need not mention what opinions people must form about the order on the basis of this observation.

Irish Stones

MathsManiac wrote: »

So, the whole sentence may mean:
This place belongs to some kind of order. All members of this order, irrespective of their standing, permit animals to be littered here. We need not mention what opinions people must form about the order on the basis of this observation.

Great!!!
This is, more or less, what I wrote some posts above after receiving all inputs and help from other users.
Thanks so much to all of you!
This, though, highlights the fact that English can be sometimes hard to understand.

Earthhorse

My gut feeling is very few people would write a sentence like that today.