Political discussion split from M20 thread

Deedsie

Why is there not an M24/N24 thread for people who wish to discuss this?

KCAccidental

zulutango wrote: »

Very dubious analysis there. Decision should take into account projected volumes as well as existing volumes.

the conclusion took into account projected volumes.

hans aus dtschl

KCAccidental wrote: »

that was taken from the feasibility study for the M20 a few years back

That's really interesting, some surprising numbers (surprising to me) there. I would have assumed that the majority of traffic was intercity!

I didn't mean to derail the thread, just didn't read far enough back.

touts

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

That's really interesting, some surprising numbers (surprising to me) there. I would have assumed that the majority of traffic was intercity!

Those are interesting figures and may be part of the problem the M20 has when it comes to getting approval. Most of the journeys are relatively short commutes. When the lads in Dublin sit down to decide what the next project to get money will be I'd suspect voices around the table argue that the Motorway network was meant to speed transport between the cities not shorten someone's 20k commute to work in Cork City. If someone wants to make a case for investment in something like the Dublin Metro they can point to only ~2000 cars a day making the Cork-Limerick journey and compare that with the numbers who "might" use the Metro. Is it a fair representation of the problem. No. But it may be part of the problem in getting approval from the powers that be who all live in Dublin.

hans aus dtschl

I understand what you're saying, but I think these things often have a bit to do with the make-up of the current Dáil constituencies, as per the following link (PDF):

http://www.constituency-commission.ie/cc/docs/Constit-Rep-2012-Chap-5.1.pdf

The N20 in Cork is partly Cork North Central, partly Cork North West and though it's hard to believe, partly Cork East. And that's just the Cork side.
More critically, drawing up a list of the sitting TD's from all of the above, none are political heavyweights.

OK we can agree that there's a degree of "if it's not in Dublin...." but it has a lot to do with the local TD's and constituencies too.

touts

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but I think these things often have a bit to do with the make-up of the current Dáil constituencies, as per the following link (PDF):

http://www.constituency-commission.ie/cc/docs/Constit-Rep-2012-Chap-5.1.pdf

The N20 in Cork is partly Cork North Central, partly Cork North West and though it's hard to believe, partly Cork East. And that's just the Cork side.
More critically, drawing up a list of the sitting TD's from all of the above, none are political heavyweights.

OK we can agree that there's a degree of "if it's not in Dublin...." but it has a lot to do with the local TD's and constituencies too.

Indeed Cork isn't well served by senior TDs at the moment and having a local minister still has some sway (just look at the amount of money Howlin has thrown at Wexford since he was put in charge of spending). But for these huge national projects I'd say the decisions of the officials implementing overall government policy has more influence. Remember while there may not be heavyweights at the Cork end of the M20 there are the likes of Noonan and O'Sullivan on the Limerick end.

For the national projects where TDs really come into play is setting that overall strategy & policy. The current government policy is very much "Dublin is the engine of the economy with a trickle down to the rest of the country". That's created the situation where there is a housing and office space crisis in Dublin but the rest of the country is still locked in a depression. However in spite of this it also creates the situation where most major development (e.g. the Metro, the Dart expansion The Luas connection etc) continues to happen in Dublin.

It is not beyond the bounds of probability that the next government would cite the problems in Dublin as a reason to move from a policy of "Dublin First" to "Regions First". Then the officials would have a strategy to follow that might see things like the motorway network or national broadband completed. In that case it would be harder for a Dublin based official to approve another Dublin development over regional ones such as the M20.

However for the moment the Dublin First strategy has meant that the M20 is not on the priority list and even if the next government had a different strategy the latest decision has set the M20 back several years if not a decade.

spacetweek

I think whether we have a Dublin First or Regions First is very questionable and depends on who you ask.

I consider us to have a Regions First policy since all of the supposed investment in Dublin never actually happens. E.G. metro north was meant to start in 2000, 2006, 2012 and 2015 but has been repeatedly delayed because politicians are balking at the idea of spending that much money on Dublin when they could get greater political capital from spreading it around the country on smaller things.

hans aus dtschl

spacetweek wrote: »

I think whether we have a Dublin First or Regions First is very questionable and depends on who you ask.

I consider us to have a Regions First policy since all of the supposed investment in Dublin never actually happens. E.G. metro north was meant to start in 2000, 2006, 2012 and 2015 but has been repeatedly delayed because politicians are balking at the idea of spending that much money on Dublin when they could get greater political capital from spreading it around the country on smaller things.

Well yes, but I'd guess the economy wasn't ever as heavily dependent on Dublin as it is now.

There's a potential medium between "Regional-oriented" and "Dublin-oriented" strategies. That is, to focus on the other industrial regions of the country as a counterbalance to Dublin. It's never going to be Dublin V Ennis, but could potentially be Dublin V some combination of Cork/Limerick/Waterford/Galway.

We're really into politics and economics here and way off-topic, but if you do work around the country or travel around the country regularly, you'll know that there's currently a trickle-down-from-Dublin approach.
Multinationals complain about lack of infrastructure/broadband/utilities in the other industrial regions, compared with Dublin, making them struggle to locate outside Dublin.

We currently don't take the other industrial areas seriously. You'd think the majority of our population or majority of our economy was based within Dublin, but the truth is that counterbalances as I mentioned above could be viable, but they're currently not being pursued. And I'll add that that's to Dublin's detriment too. It's not in Dublin's interest that unproductive areas be created elsewhere to be fed from Dublin's teat, but that's where it's currently going.

Anyway, back on track, it should never be a discussion on Metro North OR M20. We're already going down the wrong road if we're discussing that. I'm not blaming you whatsoever, by the way, just saying we all know it's the wrong way to think of it.