Help helpl

Muckers

OK this is a bit of a saga but here goes. A few months ago I sold my Kuota kharma frameset to one of the lads on here. I then bought a new Kuota Kryon frameset from my lbs and transferred my Sram force 10 speed groupset onto the new frame, but could never properly index the gears, which meant the 16 cog sprocket on the cassette while cycling on the big ring could not be used, without lots of noise going on. My lbs could not solve this issue either, so I learned to live with it.
So then the shifter mechanism failed, so I upgraded the groupset to a brand new Force 22 11 speed bought from Ribble. This is where it gets head wrecking. I fitted the new groupset and while I was riding in the small front ring there was no issues. But the big ring is a disaster. Its fine in the smallest cogs on the cassette but when shifting from the middle of the cassette up to the biggest sprockets the clicking and grating of the chain is unreal. No issues when dropping down from the 28 sprocket down to the 12. So the issue only arises when the shifter cable and chain are coming under tension. Again the lbs failed to solve it so I gave the bike to another local bike mechanic and he failed to sort it either. So then the lbs gave me a brand new frameset and the issue is exactly the same. The finger then points at the groupset, so I returned the right hand shifter, cassette and rear mech to Ribble for testing. They confirmed to me on Thursday that all 3 are working fine on their test bikes, and they are now in the post back to me. All inner and outer shifter cables have been replaced but it still wont index properly.
My problem is Ribble say the groupset is fine and the lbs say they have replaced the frameset. I was and still am suspicious of the frame because as I said earlier the original 10 speed groupset wouldn't index properly either. I'm stuck now with 2k's worth of kit mounted and useless on a bike stand in my shed. The lbs offered me an upgrade of frame for €600 but I'm not forking out anymore cash on this. Am I entitled to look for a full refund from the shop and return the frame to them?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated as its really pissing me off now

stecleary

Muckers wrote: »

OK this is a bit of a saga but here goes. A few months ago I sold my Kuota kharma frameset to one of the lads on here. I then bought a new Kuota Kryon frameset from my lbs and transferred my Sram force 10 speed groupset onto the new frame, but could never properly index the gears, which meant the 16 cog sprocket on the cassette while cycling on the big ring could not be used, without lots of noise going on. My lbs could not solve this issue either, so I learned to live with it.
So then the shifter mechanism failed, so I upgraded the groupset to a brand new Force 22 11 speed bought from Ribble. This is where it gets head wrecking. I fitted the new groupset and while I was riding in the small front ring there was no issues. But the big ring is a disaster. Its fine in the smallest cogs on the cassette but when shifting from the middle of the cassette up to the biggest sprockets the clicking and grating of the chain is unreal. No issues when dropping down from the 28 sprocket down to the 12. So the issue only arises when the shifter cable and chain are coming under tension. Again the lbs failed to solve it so I gave the bike to another local bike mechanic and he failed to sort it either. So then the lbs gave me a brand new frameset and the issue is exactly the same. The finger then points at the groupset, so I returned the right hand shifter, cassette and rear mech to Ribble for testing. They confirmed to me on Thursday that all 3 are working fine on their test bikes, and they are now in the post back to me. All inner and outer shifter cables have been replaced but it still wont index properly.
My problem is Ribble say the groupset is fine and the lbs say they have replaced the frameset. I was and still am suspicious of the frame because as I said earlier the original 10 speed groupset wouldn't index properly either. I'm stuck now with 2k's worth of kit mounted and useless on a bike stand in my shed. The lbs offered me an upgrade of frame for €600 but I'm not forking out anymore cash on this. Am I entitled to look for a full refund from the shop and return the frame to them?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated as its really pissing me off now

Test your groupset on an other frame and see if the issue remains it's not the frame, if not we'll you know what the issue is.
From there start talking to your lbs about the frame

sim0

did you fit the groupset on the frame yourself? did you remove any links from the chain or else fit a wider range cassette than the setup on your old frame? what cassette ratio and what chainrings did you get with the new groupset?

Muckers

stecleary wrote: »

Test your groupset on an other frame and see if the issue remains it's not the frame, if not we'll you know what the issue is.
From there start talking to your lbs about the frame

Ribble already tested the parts of the groupset that operate where my issue is and it's fine

StevieGriff

Not something silly like a spacer being leftover on the freehub from the 10 speed setup?

Muckers

sim0 wrote: »

did you fit the groupset on the frame yourself? did you remove any links from the chain or else fit a wider range cassette than the setup on your old frame? what cassette ratio and what chainrings did you get with the new groupset?

Shop fitted the groupset and they did remove a few links on the chain. Old and new groupsets the same ie compact 50/34 and 12/28 cassette

sim0

Muckers wrote: »

Shop fitted the groupset and they did remove a few links on the chain. Old and new groupsets the same. Ie compact 50/34 and 12/28 cassette

Okay so your saying the shop fitted the old group set to the new frame and shortened the chain? Did you get a new 11spd chain for the new group set?

sim0

StevieGriff wrote: »

Not something silly like a spacer being leftover on the freehub from the 10 speed setup?

Nah cassette lockring thread wouldn't catch then.

Muckers

sim0 wrote: »

Okay so your saying the shop fitted the old group set to the new frame and shortened the chain? Did you get a new 11spd chain for the new group set?

No. I fitted the old groupset to the new frame and chain length did not need to be changed.
The new 11 speed groupset was complete including chain

sim0

Muckers wrote: »

No. I fitted the old groupset to the new frame and chain length did not need to be changed.
The new 11 speed groupset was complete including chain

Hmmm sounds like a funny one alright. Can't figure out why you'd be getting that noise if the chain is routed through the rear mech correctly and the chain length is right. As we all know your gonna get noise when the chain line is crossed from big ring to the 28t but it shouldn't be happening from mid cassette up. I've looked around the force 22 groupset but I don't have much hands on experience with it. Whenn you hear the grinding is there clearance between the top jockey wheel and the bottom of the cassette? That's all I can think of at the min.

Muckers

sim0 wrote: »

Hmmm sounds like a funny one alright. Can't figure out why you'd be getting that noise if the chain is routed through the rear mech correctly and the chain length is right. As we all know your gonna get noise when the chain line is crossed from big ring to the 28t but it shouldn't be happening from mid cassette up. I've looked around the force 22 groupset but I don't have much hands on experience with it. Whenn you hear the grinding is there clearance between the top jockey wheel and the bottom of the cassette? That's all I can think of at the min.

Yep clearance is ok too.

koutoubia

My next port of call would be getting the bb shell measured and seeing if its compatible with SRAM.
As its happened on 2 frames and you seem to have gotten clearance from Ribble that the components are good I would look the bb shell with.
Is it a standard screw in bb or bb30?

From there I would look at cable routing. Is it internal or external?

Muckers

I'm using a Wippermann chain with it because I always use them. I will change it and use the Sram chain I bought with the groupset, although I can't see it making a difference

StevieGriff

sim0 wrote: »

Nah cassette lockring thread wouldn't catch then.

You'd be surprised. Had a guy whose Campag EPS always ran awful, similar to the OP's situation. Switch to Di2, same problem, ended up being two tiny 1mm spacers stuck to the inside edge of the freehub body. Sometimes it can be really stupid tiny things.

Muckers

StevieGriff wrote: »

You'd be surprised. Had a guy whose Campag EPS always ran awful, similar to the OP's situation. Switch to Di2, same problem, ended up being two tiny 1mm spacers stuck to the inside edge of the freehub body. Sometimes it can be really stupid tiny things.

Nope. Def no spacers there

Muckers

koutoubia wrote: »

My next port of call would be getting the bb shell measured and seeing if its compatible with SRAM.
As its happened on 2 frames and you seem to have gotten clearance from Ribble that the components are good I would look the bb shell with.
Is it a standard screw in bb or bb30?

From there I would look at cable routing. Is it internal or external?

I'm using a GXP chainset. It's a bb386 bottom bracket. Sram made their own bb to take the 24mm GXP spindle

koutoubia

What I am getting at is that the BB set up may not be compatible with your frame.

sim0

If it's internal cables could be crossed alright

clog

Am I reading this right
1) Shifting is working properly when you are in the small ring
2) Problems occur when in big ring and small sprockets
3) Rear mech shifter etc have been tested OK.

Is the noise coming from rubbing on the side plates of the front mech. Could it be that the high limit is set too low.

coastwatch

Does the clicking and grating get worse as you shIft up to 28 on the rear?
It could be that the drive side chainset is a little too far to the right, so the chainline is not right.
I see the Kryon has BB386 bottom bracket, so there must be adaptors pressed into it for the sram gpx chainset.
Are the adaptpors flush with the BB on the both sides?

nilhg

OP's problem sounds something like this

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/03/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-shifting-problems-and-cog-spacing_365030

Seems like it was crossed internal cables, though you'd have to be unlucky to do it on two separate frames I think.

Muckers

clog wrote: »

Am I reading this right
1) Shifting is working properly when you are in the small ring
2) Problems occur when in big ring and small sprockets
3) Rear mech shifter etc have been tested OK.

Is the noise coming from rubbing on the side plates of the front mech. Could it be that the high limit is set too low.

No problem arises when in big ring and on 6 largest sprockets on the cassette. Noise is coming from cassette and not front mech

Muckers

coastwatch wrote: »

Does the clicking and grating get worse as you shIft up to 28 on the rear?
It could be that the drive side chainset is a little too far to the right, so the chainline is not right.
I see the Kryon has BB386 bottom bracket, so there must be adaptors pressed into it for the sram gpx chainset.
Are the adaptpors flush with the BB on the both sides?

I get what your saying about the chainset being too far to the right. There was a spacer in there but we have removed it. Kuota made their own bb386 to suit a GXP chainset and that looks fine

Muckers

nilhg wrote: »

OP's problem sounds something like this

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/03/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-shifting-problems-and-cog-spacing_365030

Seems like it was crossed internal cables, though you'd have to be unlucky to do it on two separate frames I think.

Wow that's interesting. This guy says sprockets 21-25 were unusable while riding on the big ring. That's exactly the issue I have. Will have to look at that.

dvntie

Have you tried adding an extra link to the chain. I had the same issue with a force 10 speed rear mech and adding links sorted it

Muckers

dvntie wrote: »

Have you tried adding an extra link to the chain. I had the same issue with a force 10 speed rear mech and adding links sorted it

Cheers. Another option for me

Kaisr Sose

Muckers wrote: »

Cheers. Another option for me

I would definitely add a link or two — if only to rule out chain length as a cause. As another poster said, you would be surprised at a simple a thing could cause a problem.

Good luck!

Brian?

OP, where do you live?

Muckers

Brian? wrote: »

OP, where do you live?

I live in Tramore in Waterford

clog

Muckers wrote: »

I'm using a Wippermann chain with it because I always use them. I will change it and use the Sram chain I bought with the groupset, although I can't see it making a difference

Are you sure you are using a wippermann 11 speed chain, I was looking for one a while ago and couldn't find one in stock anywhere.

Brian?

Muckers wrote: »

I live in Tramore in Waterford

Pity. If you were close I really wanted to see that problem. Can't get my head around it at all.

hesker

I have a very similar problem on a build I put together this summer. My build is a bit different in that it's an old steel frame that I've stuck a newer 8 speed group on. But it sounds like there is a similarity here.

No problem on the front small ring at all. No problem on big front ring when on small rear sprockets. When I get to the middle of the cluster changing up to a bigger cog the chain will not climb onto the cog. If I press the shifter a little further it forces it up and then it travels fine with no grinding. I have it adjusted as good as it can get.

I've taken out the cable and relubed it. No difference. Rear der looks fine. Rear der hanger is fine. I suspect the chainline due to the fact that the small front ring gives no trouble. But the chainline looks pretty good.

I've had the wheel out and measured the symmetry of the dropout distance. It's out about 1mm using Sheldon's method of measuring with the string. I may try to correct this but not yet.

I'm going to swap out the rear der and the cranks because I have access to another set. I have measured the chain width and it should be OK with this setup. I might change that out too.

Will let you know if I find anything.

Muckers

hesker wrote: »

I have a very similar problem on a build I put together this summer. My build is a bit different in that it's an old steel frame that I've stuck a newer 8 speed group on. But it sounds like there is a similarity here.

No problem on the front small ring at all. No problem on big front ring when on small rear sprockets. When I get to the middle of the cluster changing up to a bigger cog the chain will not climb onto the cog. If I press the shifter a little further it forces it up and then it travels fine with no grinding. I have it adjusted as good as it can get.

I've taken out the cable and relubed it. No difference. Rear der looks fine. Rear der hanger is fine. I suspect the chainline due to the fact that the small front ring gives no trouble. But the chainline looks pretty good.

I've had the wheel out and measured the symmetry of the dropout distance. It's out about 1mm using Sheldon's method of measuring with the string. I may try to correct this but not yet.

I'm going to swap out the rear der and the cranks because I have access to another set. I have measured the chain width and it should be OK with this setup. I might change that out too.

Will let you know if I find anything.

So I'm not the only one who's head is wrecked

iwillhtfu

Might be a good time to put in an offer on the new frame

The Kharma is tipping along nicely

Muckers

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Might be a good time to put in an offer on the new frame

The Kharma is tipping along nicely

Haha. Small money will secure it now.

dvntie

Was just having a think about your issue and was wondering if your rear cable was long enough too. Sram rear mechs are renowned for requiring an unsightly long loop of cable at the mech.

Muckers

dvntie wrote: »

Was just having a think about your issue and was wondering if your rear cable was long enough too. Sram rear mechs are renowned for requiring an unsightly long loop of cable at the mech.

Seems plenty long. I have Red on another bike with similar loop length and it's so smooth

clog

Get a straight through length of gear cable outer and run the cable through that outside of the frame itself. If this setup shifrts ok then the problem has to be in the cable run somewhere.

Muckers

clog wrote: »

Get a straight through length of gear cable outer and run the cable through that outside of the frame itself. If this setup shifrts ok then the problem has to be in the cable run somewhere.

This was suggested to me a few days ago, so that's next on the agenda. Cheers

Junior

Are you sure the rear mech isn't slightly bent ?

Muckers

Junior wrote: »

Are you sure the rear mech isn't slightly bent ?

Nope. Looks ok. Waiting on this stuff to arrive back from Ribble but the fffn postal strike seems to have slowed it down

Unknown Soldier

When you look down at the rear cassette from above, is the rear derailleur arm in line with the sprocket it's under? As in 12 O clock?

Muckers

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

When you look down at the rear cassette from above, is the rear derailleur arm in line with the sprocket it's under? As in 12 O clock?

Sure is

Junior

Muckers wrote: »

Nope. Looks ok. Waiting on this stuff to arrive back from Ribble but the fffn postal strike seems to have slowed it down

I'd be inclined to give it a little pull - I had a similar issue where I couldn't get a bike to stay in one gear, turns out the rear mech got a slight bend either a pedal up against or something.

Muckers

Ok issue resolved as of today. It turns out the inner liners within the down tube to guide the shifter cables through were wrapped around each other. Removal of one of the liners followed by careful reinstallation solved the problem.

Thanks to everyone on here who offered advice and assistance. It is greatly appreciated.

From a happy camper/cyclist

Muckers

Ok issue resolved as of today. It turns out the inner liners within the down tube to guide the shifter cables through were wrapped around each other. Removal of one of the liners followed by careful reinstallation solved the problem.

Thanks to everyone on here who offered advice and assistance. It is greatly appreciated.

From a happy camper/cyclist