Knowingly submitting in correct card

Proven_John

Hello all,

Can anybody advise on the following

Player A and Player B ( marker ) sign a card knowing its incorrect. The round was not completed final holes were just marked without playing them. Card handed in for competitions.

What are the repercussions here for both suspension or further?


Thanks

Montgolfier

Proven_John wrote: »

Hello all,

Can anybody advise on the following

Player A and Player B ( marker ) sign a card knowing its incorrect. The round was not completed final holes were just marked without playing them. Card handed in for competitions.

What are the repercussions here for both suspension or further?




Thanks

They'll probably be in the prizes maybe they might have to make a speech.

Boskowski

Were they marked as no score/scratch or were they marked with fantasy scores?

Colonel_McCoy

Cards were filled out with scores (stableford format) but it was noted they stayed on the course less than 2.5 hours!

Rikand

Colonel_McCoy wrote: »

Cards were filled out with scores (stableford format) but it was noted they stayed on the course less than 2.5 hours!

Hard to catch anything when it's two lads in it together. Your word against theirs. And an alibi makes everything watertight.

I heard Something similar Happen to a golfer last year. entered an open comp, got in his car and drove off. Arrived back 2 hours later and submitted his card with 9 birdies on it. He was seen coming back though and subsequently caught. Especially when he had signed the card with a friends name, that had been working the entire day...

1 guy on his own - suspended for a year
2 guys on their own - nothing to see here

Rikand

Proven_john
Colonel_McCoy

Im seeing a pattern here

PARlance

It's a shocking state of affairs!!!!!!









When a 2 ball are automatically deemed to be cheating for going around in 2 and a half hours.

The Rape of Lucretia

Hello all,

Can anybody advise on the following

Poster A poses a question. Poster B asks for clarification from poster A. Poster C provides the clarification as if they are poster A.

What are the repercussions here for both suspension or further?


Thanks

Montgolfier

I've seen cheating on the course and with score card alteration.
As for cheating on the course - I once tried to explain to a guy that you can't take a drop out of a ditch if you don't find your ball. His response was "I don't give a ****"
The other time I signed a card and he altered his score by a stroke less after even though I knew he had a six (as he forgot his duffed chip).
I didn't do anything he had no score but he put an extra stroke on my card for spite on the same hole. I thought about going to the hcp sec but I didn't need the aggro and chalked it down to expierence. I won't play with him again.

I think you need to treat golf like your only competition is yourself.
Forget the cheaters if your beaten by a cheat when you have a great score. Give yourself credit for your score and move on, if you play for prizes only there's something wrong.

agusta

You cant forget anyone cheating or changing there score.the person marking the card is also the referee as such for the rest of the field and he has to ensure the card is correct

Montgolfier

agusta wrote: »

You cant forget anyone cheating or changing there score.the person marking the card is also the referee as such for the rest of the field and he has to ensure the card is correct

I dont agree that marker of your card or uour playing partners are the referee.

How can you put your round in the hands of some bozo who may not be familiar with the rules of golf in the first place.
I give myself a ruling and if someone has a query we can check it out in the proshop after the round before the card is signed.

There's lads playing every day giving unwanted advice breaking rule 8. There's cosy groups of 3 and 4 balls who have their own version of the rules. All these affect the rest of the field.
I just play my own game there will always be a certain amount of cheating even though it may be unintentional.

First Up

Montgolfier wrote: »

I dont agree that marker of your card or uour playing partners are the referee.

How can you put your round in the hands of some bozo who may not be familiar with the rules of golf in the first place.
I give myself a ruling and if someone has a query we can check it out in the proshop after the round before the card is signed.

There's lads playing every day giving unwanted advice breaking rule 8. There's cosy groups of 3 and 4 balls who have their own version of the rules. All these affect the rest of the field.
I just play my own game there will always be a certain amount of cheating even though it may be unintentional.

The whole point of signing cards is to attest that they are accurate. By knowingly signing an incorrect card, you are failing in the duty of "protecting the field".

We've probably all seen incidents of casual rule breaking - guys sweeping stones of their lines with their putters, dropping for a penalty when a ball is OB, grounding clubs in hazards etc. Some of it may be ignorance but that doesn't mean it can be ignored.

Yes, you risk being accused of being a busybody or worse, but you HAVE to do your job. If they guy (or sometimes gal) is new to the game, it is reasonable to give them a friendly heads up and let it go the first time. Most will thank you and apologise for their ignorance. However if a seasoned player is doing it in a competition, you don't have an option.

Hoof Hearted2

First Up wrote: »

The whole point of signing cards is to attest that they are accurate. By knowingly signing an incorrect card, you are failing in the duty of "protecting the field".

We've probably all seen incidents of casual rule breaking - guys sweeping stones of their lines with their putters, dropping for a penalty when a ball is OB, grounding clubs in hazards etc. Some of it may be ignorance but that doesn't mean it can be ignored.

Yes, you risk being accused of being a busybody or worse, but you HAVE to do your job. If they guy (or sometimes gal) is new to the game, it is reasonable to give them a friendly heads up and let it go the first time. Most will thank you and apologise for their ignorance. However if a seasoned player is doing it in a competition, you don't have an option.

Montgolfer is correct, your playing partners job is solely to act as a witness to the score, he is not a referee for you, no more than you are for him.

golfwallah

Proven_John wrote: »

Hello all,

Can anybody advise on the following

Player A and Player B ( marker ) sign a card knowing its incorrect. The round was not completed final holes were just marked without playing them. Card handed in for competitions.

What are the repercussions here for both suspension or further?


Thanks

Under the Rules of Golf there are repercussions for both player (rule 6-6d) and marker (rule 33-7) of at least disqualification from the competition and, perhaps, more depending on the view taken by the committee.

Of course the committee must first know about it and, even then, may have to seek advice from the GUI!

Here's what some of the rules say about it:

6-6 - Scoring in Stroke Play
a. Recording Scores
After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

b. Signing and Returning Score Card
After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b:
Disqualification.


c. Alteration of Score Card
No alteration may be made on a score card after the competitor has returned it to the Committee.

d. Wrong Score for Hole
The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he is disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands.

Note 1: The Committee is responsible for the addition of scores and application of the handicap recorded on the score card – see Rule 33-5.
Note 2: In four-ball stroke play, see also Rule 31-3 and 31-7


33-7 - Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion

A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.
Any penalty less than disqualification must not be waived or modified.
If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.

First Up

Not a referee, but by signing a card he is attesting to its accuracy. If he knows it to be innacurate, he is party to cheating and subject to sanction.

Henry Ford III

I think something like this happened in one of the Limerick clubs. Castletroy perhaps?

Can't recall the outcome but suffice to say the club concerned weren't too pleased with the offending members.

Rikand

Just noticed the heading and we've been taken for a massive troll once again.

The space between in and correct. Well yeah... Most people knowingly submit correct scores

First Up

Rikand wrote: »

Just noticed the heading and we've been taken for a massive troll once again.

The space between in and correct. Well yeah... Most people knowingly submit correct scores

Don't know about the troll but its a valid topic to discuss.

Montgolfier

First Up wrote: »

The whole point of signing cards is to attest that they are accurate. By knowingly signing an incorrect card, you are failing in the duty of "protecting the field".

We've probably all seen incidents of casual rule breaking - guys sweeping stones of their lines with their putters, dropping for a penalty when a ball is OB, grounding clubs in hazards etc. Some of it may be ignorance but that doesn't mean it can be ignored.

Yes, you risk being accused of being a busybody or worse, but you HAVE to do your job. If they guy (or sometimes gal) is new to the game, it is reasonable to give them a friendly heads up and let it go the first time. Most will thank you and apologise for their ignorance. However if a seasoned player is doing it in a competition, you don't have an option.

Its a tough on alright I would discuss the rule if I someone asked but I would not halt play with an argument. Not only would that upset the rest of my round but your playing partners. I would say play a second ball and let's ask the pro later which score was correct according to the rules.

According to the rules all rules are equal if your advising a new comer and waiver a rule your breaking rule 1-3 yourself. So if your in for a penny in for a pound. I mean if you want to be the golf police you can't be hypocritical either.

First Up

Montgolfier wrote: »

Its a tough on alright I would discuss the rule if I someone asked but I would not halt play with an argument. Not only would that upset the rest of my round but your playing partners. I would say play a second ball and let's ask the pro later which score was correct according to the rules.

According to the rules all rules are equal if your advising a new comer and waiver a rule your breaking rule 1-3 yourself. So if your in for a penny in for a pound. I mean if you want to be the golf police you can't be hypocritical either.

I'm totally in favour of playing by the rules but someone learning the game (and the rules) is unlikely to be shooting in the high 30's and featuring in the prizes. If it was going to affect a competition result, it would be a tricky call but otherwise a quiet word to inform them is preferable to humiliating them in public.

Most times you can anticipate things - for example if it looks like a novice might play out of a hazard, a reminder about not grounding the club, or if it looks as if a shot is OB, they might want to play a provisional.

The one about touching the line of a putt is very common but while a rule like any other, it doesn't automatically bring an advantage. I've sometimes just said it on the next fairway -e.g " you know you are not to do that and you would be called on it in a match.." or similar.