GPA's New All-Ireland Football Proposal

sheroman01

Surprised there's no thread on this yet. GPA's New All-Ireland Football Series Proposal announced today:

"The GPA propose a new All-Ireland series consisting of 32 teams divided into eight groups in a system which replicates the wonderful old cliché of the 'Champions League format'. The seedings in each group will be determined by NFL standings and provincial championships."

It certainly makes things more interesting. Only thing I'm thinking is - While it gives "smaller/weaker" clubs more chance of reaching an All-Ireland last 16 or QF, they're still going to come up against stronger teams and could still end up with one-sided games at that stage.

So, what do ya's think?

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http://www.balls.ie/gaa/heres-the-gpas-radical-solution-to-fix-the-football-championship/310813

https://www.gaelicplayers.com/TabId/86/ArtMID/421/ArticleID/448/Football-Competitions-Proposal---Improving-Player-Experience-Unlocking-Potential-of-Game.aspx

TCDStudent1

sheroman01 wrote: »

Surprised there's no thread on this yet. GPA's New All-Ireland Football Series Proposal announced today:

"The GPA propose a new All-Ireland series consisting of 32 teams divided into eight groups in a system which replicates the wonderful old cliché of the 'Champions League format'. The seedings in each group will be determined by NFL standings and provincial championships."

It certainly makes things more interesting. Only thing I'm thinking is - While it gives "smaller/weaker" clubs more chance of reaching an All-Ireland last 16 or QF, they're still going to come up against stronger teams and could still end up with one-sided games at that stage.

So, what do ya's think?

---

http://www.balls.ie/gaa/heres-the-gpas-radical-solution-to-fix-the-football-championship/310813

https://www.gaelicplayers.com/TabId/86/ArtMID/421/ArticleID/448/Football-Competitions-Proposal---Improving-Player-Experience-Unlocking-Potential-of-Game.aspx

Very boring structure. Champions league doesn't get good until knock out. It'd be the sand here.
Also the articles lack detail on how this would affect club fixtures. It says if would be better for clubs but I don't really see how!

K-9

Concern about 20 point hammerings of weaker teams.

Put Dublin and Carlow in the one group!

Nidgeweasel

The champions league group stages are atrociouS. They are boring, predictable and rarely result in teams coming from the pack to go through.

At least they've kept the provincial championships. Although what's the point, for top seed? An Ulster team for example would nearly be better going out early, resting up and going in 2nd or 3rd than battling through Ulster only to end up exhausted and knocked out at the group.

There really should be some form of secondary competition too you know. Turkeys won't vote for Christmas but some of these counties have ideas above their station. You have to crawl before you can walk. There is no benefit to having Carlow in the All Ireland.

Nidgeweasel

Double post.

padd b1975

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Very boring structure. Champions league doesn't get good until knock out. It'd be the sand here.
Also the articles lack detail on how this would affect club fixtures. It says if would be better for clubs but I don't really see how!

GPA ignoring club footballers..... Not exactly hold the front page stuff.

Mehapoy

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

The champions league group stages are atrociouS. They are boring, predictable and rarely result in teams coming from the pack to go through.

At least they've kept the provincial championships. Although what's the point, for top seed? An Ulster team for example would nearly be better going out early, resting up and going in 2nd or 3rd than battling through Ulster only to end up exhausted and knocked out at the group.

There really should be some form of secondary competition too you know. Turkeys won't vote for Christmas but some of these counties have ideas above their station. You have to crawl before you can walk. There is no benefit to having Carlow in the All Ireland.

Ya shows the players don't always have the answers when consulted about playing competitions, obviously all players individually want to test themselves against the best but there is really no benefit in the likes of Carlow, Longford against Dublin or Limerick, waterford against Kerry for any of the teams, you'd see the large counties playing second teams and still winning the provincials, the group stages would be more boring then the Europa league groups.
I thought the Sean Kelly/Jim McGuiness proposals were much better thought out and provided an outlet for teams to progress...

mooonpie

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Very boring structure. Champions league doesn't get good until knock out. It'd be the sand here.
Also the articles lack detail on how this would affect club fixtures. It says if would be better for clubs but I don't really see how!

I found most of the articles on this pretty atrocious to be honest. All copying and pasting the same press release, but apparently that's journalism nowadays!
Got a link to the actual presentation from balls.ie article: https://prezi.com/cjzaxble2j87/gpa-football-competitions-proposal-with-new-all-ireland-series

I assume the advantage for club fixtures is to do with the fixed calendar (slides 45 - 49)

There are some interesting touches in there for the round-robin fixtures:
1st seed home v 2nd seed - advantage of being a 1st seed
4th seed home v 1st seed - advantage for the weaker counties

Edit: Seems whoever put the slide pack together got a bit confused by the "Scenario 2" (If a non D1 team wins Provincial Championship) ... Slide 28 is missing Sligo, but has Kildare as 1st and 3rd seeds

Nidgeweasel

Mehapoy wrote: »

Ya shows the players don't always have the answers when consulted about playing competitions, obviously all players individually want to test themselves against the best but there is really no benefit in the likes of Carlow, Longford against Dublin or Limerick, waterford against Kerry for any of the teams, you'd see the large counties playing second teams and still winning the provincials, the group stages would be more boring then the Europa league groups.
I thought the Sean Kelly/Jim McGuiness proposals were much better thought out and provided an outlet for teams to progress...

This was the key bit for me.

I don't think the GPA's suggestion does this at all.

Maybe introduce home advantage for the promoted D2 team or something too.

mooonpie

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Maybe introduce home advantage for the promoted D2 team or something too.

The promoted D2 teams (2 teams promoted from D2 to D1) will be 1st seeds, so will have home advantage against 2nd seed

nice_guy80

Too many group games. If you ask me.
If a team is going bad they could get 3 hammerings

Will Dublin FINALLY have to leave Croke Park to play?

D9Male

Put Kerry or Dublin in a group with (say) Meath, Clare and Waterford.

There is absolutely no chance of them failing to progress. Those three games would be an absolute waste of time for all counties involved.

D9Male

I do like the pacing of the season, however. More time for club games, more inter county matches.

Could the idea be tinkered with? Say if there is a Championship with the best 16 teams (based off NFL and provincials).

And a plate competition based off the remaining 16 teams.

So 4 groups of 4 in the championship round robin. Might give a group like this:

Dublin
Donegal
Galway
Cavan

mooonpie

D9Male wrote: »

Put Kerry or Dublin in a group with (say) Meath, Clare and Waterford.

There is absolutely no chance of them failing to progress. Those three games would be an absolute waste of time for all counties involved.

Which is no different to Dublin playing Longford, Kildare and Westmeath?

Where there is a difference is that Meath, Clare and Waterford are all guaranteed 3 games, after NFL and Provincial Championships, and 2 of them are guaranteed a further knock-out game in the preliminary round against other 2nd and 3rd places from the round robin.

All of these games are to be played in defined windows, so there's more structure to the calendar, which means some element of certainty for club players ... rather than the current tug-of-war between clubs, county boards and county managers

Dirty Dingus McGee

Seeing as the weaker counties are never going to vote for a tiered system out of misguided self interest then perhaps an idea would be to have opening knockout round with all 32 counties.

Top 12 in the league are seeded 9more isnteretsing than 16 seeded teams as it will create more chnace of more close contests) and there are 16 ties where the winner goes through to the next stage (which consists of 4 groups of 4).

Loser either goes home or you have a B all ireland with the winner being seeded for next years first round.

It would provide knockout championship matches early in the year, a much better and more competitive all ireland series and everybody gets a chance to compete against the top teams.

I think it's better than the GPA's idea and although my personal preference would be for championship to be arranged like it is in hurling that probably will never get voted through.

Whatever happens the provincial championships have to go they are a complete waste of time at this stage and only exists for the 1 in 20 year shock victory.

Exiled1

Ridiculous number of group games that inevitably become boring. If you go beyond a group of five, group rounds guarantee dead rubbers as the rounds are played.
Completely ignores the awful problems club players have in trying to get a meaningful game before September.

mooonpie

Exiled1 wrote: »

Completely ignores the awful problems club players have in trying to get a meaningful game before September.

I don't think the problem most club players complain about is playing a meaningful game before September.

Maybe if the calendar is sorted, games during June, July August might become the primary complaint ... but at the moment I think the biggest problem is the uncertainty around when they'll be called on to play those meaningful games.

Ceist_Beag

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Whatever happens the provincial championships have to go they are a complete waste of time at this stage and only exists for the 1 in 20 year shock victory.

This is not true of Ulster and I'm sure the Ulster council would put up a huge fight to retain the Ulster championship.
Personally I think the system along the lines of the one mooted by Jim McGuinness works best. Provincials offer an alternative route to qualification to the top tier AI championship and have a second tier AI for those who don't qualify via the league or provincials.

I said

Why don't they use the current league tables for the all Ireland 8 teams in 4 leagues winners and R/up in each table get into a quarter final and promote and relegate in the league.
At least standard will be roughly the same until the q/fs then have an open draw for them, home advantage to first out of hat,semis and final at croker.
You can run it all off from May to end of August.All teams get at least 7 games.

Slobberdawn

I said wrote: »

Why don't they use the current league tables for the all Ireland 8 teams in 4 leagues winners and R/up in each table get into a quarter final and promote and relegate in the league.
At least standard will be roughly the same until the q/fs then have an open draw for them, home advantage to first out of hat,semis and final at croker.
You can run it all off from May to end of August.All teams get at least 7 games.

Are you saying put the top two from each division in the league into the AIQF?

So, six teams in Division 1 are gone but the top two in Division 4 progress?

I said

Slobberdawn wrote: »

Are you saying put the top two from each division in the league into the AIQF?

So, six teams in Division 1 are gone but the top two in Division 4 progress?

Yes using this years league tables q/fs look like this div1 Cork/Dublin,div2Tyrone/Derry,div3fermanagh/Armagh,div4longford/Offaly.
Promote and relegate teams as happens in the league using current format.You have seven games in each division I realise a lot of big guns in division one are missing but wouldn't you get as many big and exciting games if for example Dublin had to travel to mayo on the last game of league and win to progress to q/fs or results to go there way elsewhere.

Slobberdawn

I said wrote: »

Yes using this years league tables q/fs look like this div1 Cork/Dublin,div2Tyrone/Derry,div3fermanagh/Armagh,div4longford/Offaly.
Promote and relegate teams as happens in the league using current format.You have seven games in each division I realise a lot of big guns in division one are missing but wouldn't you get as many big and exciting games if for example Dublin had to travel to mayo on the last game of league and win to progress to q/fs or results to go there way elsewhere.

Yes but it seems odd to allow effectively the 25th and 26th ranked teams into the last eight of the championship and omit teams ranked 3rd to 8th.

K-9

mooonpie wrote: »

Which is no different to Dublin playing Longford, Kildare and Westmeath?

Where there is a difference is that Meath, Clare and Waterford are all guaranteed 3 games, after NFL and Provincial Championships, and 2 of them are guaranteed a further knock-out game in the preliminary round against other 2nd and 3rd places from the round robin.

All of these games are to be played in defined windows, so there's more structure to the calendar, which means some element of certainty for club players ... rather than the current tug-of-war between clubs, county boards and county managers

Well yeah, you're asking the right questions but your answer will still give the same answers.

We've a top 7 at the minute, Donegal and Monaghan moved up so it shows teams can move up a level.

We then have maybe 18 teams or so that there isn't that much between. Some at the top like Meath, Down and Galway that should be able to be competitive at the top tier. Others like Fermanagh or Sligo would targeting getting to the top of that bracket.

The bottom 6 or 7 teams really have nothing to aim at. Good underage set up seems to be the way to,go as with Tipperary and Limerick previously.

But really is there any point in putting Carlow in a 4 team group with Kerry, Galway and Wexford? Even if they beat Wexford that's it, nothing much to build on. If we're going to give them games, make them meaningful and give them some target and achievement at the end of it.

I said

K-9 wrote: »

Well yeah, you're asking the right questions but your answer will still give the same answers.

We've a top 7 at the minute, Donegal and Monaghan moved up so it shows teams can move up a level.

We then have maybe 18 teams or so that there isn't that much between. Some at the top like Meath, Down and Galway that should be able to be competitive at the top tier. Others like Fermanagh or Sligo would targeting getting to the top of that bracket.

The bottom 6 or 7 teams really have nothing to aim at. Good underage set up seems to be the way to,go as with Tipperary and Limerick previously.

But really is there any point in putting Carlow in a 4 team group with Kerry, Galway and Wexford? Even if they beat Wexford that's it, nothing much to build on. If we're going to give them games, make them meaningful and give them some target and achievement at the end of it.

The target and achievement would be Longford been crowned div4 champions and promoted to div3 and earning a q/f berth in the process which can only help in improving the standard of football.At least in this system there is more games played for each county than the current structure with some teams out after two games more can get into an all Ireland with 5 games played.

Coillte_Bhoy

I said wrote: »

Why don't they use the current league tables for the all Ireland 8 teams in 4 leagues winners and R/up in each table get into a quarter final and promote and relegate in the league.
At least standard will be roughly the same until the q/fs then have an open draw for them, home advantage to first out of hat,semis and final at croker.
You can run it all off from May to end of August.All teams get at least 7 games.

Absolutely ridiculous proposal with all due respects. The whole point of a round robin is to get the best teams to progress to the knock-out stages. Some of the top teams like teams like Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Cork, Tyrone would struggle to make the last 8 while you would have teams ranked 25th and 26th making it with the inevitable one sided hammerings to follow.

I said

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Absolutely ridiculous proposal with all due respects. The whole point of a round robin is to get the best teams to progress to the knock-out stages. Some of the top teams like teams like Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Cork, Tyrone would struggle to make the last 8 while you would have teams ranked 25th and 26th making it with the inevitable one sided hammerings to follow.

So what are you proposing?
Protect the big teams using a different format and forget about the rest?sounds familiar o yeah it's been done with the hurling all ready.
How will the game country wide be improved if your only interested in protecting the so called big powers.
The more things change the more you want them to stay the same.so much for more game time for players if your only interested in the players from the stronger counties getting it and no one else.
If you have teams playing 7 games a season surely then it stands to reason the standard improves and overtime the teams in div 1and2 will be more than capable of winning an all Ireland that's sixteen teams competitive in two divisions and div3and4 are improving the standard as well.
The GPA proposal appears to me to be leaning to the elite counties with seeding teams.
The 2013 hurling championship was hailed as the best in 20 years by the so called pundits.Just because Clare won it or a so called non traditional county.Outside of the big three Offaly in 98 was the last to win it.
What's wrong with opening up the football a bit more.if we don't it will become the usual Dublin/Kerry procession every year.How or why would that make anyone else bother to play or watch football in the future.

Condenser

I'd like to see the league restructured to a 12 team first and second division with 8 teams in the 3rd. Play the provincials instead of FBD etc. but interspersed through the end of the league rather than start of the year. Championship should be open draw straight knock out. Teams from the lower division get home advantage but when teams in the same division get drawn together the higher ranked team gets home advantage.
No need to have a degree to work out how it works. Similar to other successful sports around the world.

K-9

Ah here, putting Longford into a Q/F to get trounced?

There's too many pointless games in Leinster. Put Carlow, Wicklow, Offaly, and Longford into a round robin competition like hurling and the winner goes into a Q/_F with plenty competition. You could actually have 2 groups of 4 as there's only 3 Leinster teams in the 2 top divisions. Seed Dublin in a Semi Final and work the rest out.

I said

K-9 wrote: »

Ah here, putting Longford into a Q/F to get trounced?

There's too many pointless games in Leinster. Put Carlow, Wicklow, Offaly, and Longford into a round robin competition like hurling and the winner goes into a Q/_F with plenty competition. You could actually have 2 groups of 4 as there's only 3 Leinster teams in the 2 top divisions. Seed Dublin in a Semi Final and work the rest out.

Yes let's keep the status quo and not bother develop the game in the so called weaker counties by having a round robin like the hurling.

Prop Joe

All Ireland split into 2 seeds

Top Seeds

Div 1 & Div 2 teams

Bottom Seeds

Div 3 & Div 4 teams

Provincials run concurrently with the league

Top seeds are grouped in the All Ireland League A
Bottom seeds are grouped in All Ireland League B


A win against a Div 1 team in league or Championship is worth 4pts
A win against a Div 2 team in league or Championship is worth 3pts
A win against a Div 3 team in league or Championship is worth 2pts
A win against a Div 4 team in league or Championship is worth 1pts

After League & Championship the first round of All Ireland is drawn as follows

Knockout Rd.1

Top 4 (Home Advantage) in All Ireland League A play Bottom 4 in All Ireland League A - (Open Draw)
Second 4 (Home Advantage) in All Ireland League A play Third 4 in All Ireland League A - (Open Draw)

Top 4 (Home Advantage) in All Ireland League B play Bottom 4 in All Ireland League B - (Open Draw)
Second 4 (Home Advantage) in All Ireland League B play Third 4 in All Ireland League B - (Open Draw)

Knockout Rd.2

16 winners of round 2 open draw

Quarter Final

Semi Final

Final

Here is a draft based on this years championship

Final standings after National League



Add in points earned during provincials



Final standings before championship draw



Same process for bottom seeds



Draft draw

Rd.1

Monaghan v Tyrone
Donegal v Laois
Cork v Kildare
Dublin v Derry

Roscommon v Westmeath
Mayo v Cavan
Kerry v Galway
Down v Meath

Tipp v Longford
Sligo v Offaly
Fermanagh v Limerick
Armagh v Clare

Antrim v Waterford
Wexford v London
Louth v Carlow
Leitrim v Wicklow

RD.2

Sligo v Armagh
Leitrim v Down
Roscommon v Kerry
Monaghan v Mayo
Wexford v Cork
Antrim v Fermanagh
Louth v Dublin
Tipp v Donegal

QF
Down v Donegal
Dublin v Kerry
Fermanagh v Cork
Mayo v Armagh

Semi
Dublin v Mayo
Cork v Donegal

Final
Dublin v Donegal


A draft calender of the year would look like





Key points


Keeping the history and importance of the provincials

Evens out the unbalanced strength of the provinces
I.E A team that makes the semi in Ulster could earn more points than Kerry winning Munster

A 32 county open draw which should bring the championship to life in the early rounds

Every team can win the All Ireland in 5 games

All games in Provincial & All Ireland knock out games

More Structured Calendar- With dates are defined to structure club competitions

Bumper Championship weekends

Enough free weekends not to impact on the Hurling Championship

A defined schedule of game's so Club football can run smoothly throughout the summer.

A reduced training to matches ratio for county players from on average 9:1 to 2:1

National League to have increased importance with championship rankings at stake

Extra time in all games

All Ireland final to be played on last weekend of August

BonnieSituation

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Too many group games. If you ask me.
If a team is going bad they could get 3 hammerings

Will Dublin FINALLY have to leave Croke Park to play?

Ask our Leinster Council colleagues who keep voting to having us play in Croke Park.

munchkin_utd

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ask our Leinster Council colleagues who keep voting to having us play in Croke Park.

you mean the leinster counties

The delegates to the Leinster council are from each county in Leinster

BonnieSituation

munchkin_utd wrote: »

you mean the leinster counties

The delegates to the Leinster council are from each county in Leinster

Roish.

munchkin_utd

its interesting to see that Ulster needs a full month to run off 4 quarter finals in intercounty with 1 game per weekend yet 12 quarter finals at the 3 grades are being played on the same day.
Its just a prime example of how a provincial championship can be compressed if the will is there.

Prop Joe

munchkin_utd wrote: »

its interesting to see that Ulster needs a full month to run off 4 quarter finals in intercounty with 1 game per weekend yet 12 quarter finals at the 3 grades are being played on the same day.
Its just a prime example of how a provincial championship can be compressed if the will is there.

The problem the GAA face is gates,Alot of Ulster gaels would attend all 4 QF's in Ulster,Similar to Munster hurling these games attract alot of neutrals.

If they played them all over one weekend gates would dramatically drop IMO.

What i would like see is Ulster QF's played over 2 weekends - 1 on a Sat eve - 1 on a Sunday with a special weekend pass for reduced entry price if you wanted to attend both,It would encourage people to attend both and although gates would drop it could be reduced dramatically