Learning the pipes - plumbing virgin

magnethead

Hi,
I'm a IT guy, but recently just wanted to gain a basic understanding of plumbing so if you would have the patience to deal with me I'd appreciate it, I try to do the same when I'm fixing your computer down the phone line :eek:

you might need some more info which I can provide, so please ask.

But what are the Items in this photo,

• What is a By-Pass valve, should it be open or closed?
• That thermo valve with the little TC coming out of it has nothing to do with my immersion, I guess it'll close when it reaches a certain temp? but why is it there, surely my gas boiler controls the temp of water going to the cylinder?
• What is a choke valve, should that be open or closed? or only a little bit open, like choking the flow which would make it a good name for the valve.
• Should that rust be there? There was a plumber in a while ago, who found 4 leaks in the hot press when I was having pressure problems on the gas boiler..could this have been one of those points? or does that normally happen at the end of the cylinder.

I'm curious if there items are set wrong, could they interfere with the rads getting up to temp, they don't appear to be as hot as they used to be could be just paranoia but I'm interested in getting a basic understanding of plumbing now.
Thanks

tedimc

I'm not a plumber, but have worked a few summers with one. But others will correct me if I'm wrong.

1 - cold water enters the bottom of the hot water tank, so the by-pass valve should be open fully.
2 - I've never seen a thermostatic valve on the cold feed like that. It's like a radiator thermo valve which works on the temp of the ambient air as opposed to the temp of the water in the pipe. I can't think why it would or should be there. I would open it fully by turning it to the highest number.
3 - Not sure what the choke valve is for - I presume the cold water is then continuing down to downstairs for toilet, bathroom sink, shower, etc. If so, the choke valve should be open fully.
4 - Rust is somewhat normal as long as the fitting is not rusted through.

Dtp1979

tedimc wrote: »

I'm not a plumber, but have worked a few summers with one. But others will correct me if I'm wrong.

1 - cold water enters the bottom of the hot water tank, so the by-pass valve should be open fully.
2 - I've never seen a thermostatic valve on the cold feed like that. It's like a radiator thermo valve which works on the temp of the ambient air as opposed to the temp of the water in the pipe. I can't think why it would or should be there. I would open it fully by turning it to the highest number.
3 - Not sure what the choke valve is for - I presume the cold water is then continuing down to downstairs for toilet, bathroom sink, shower, etc. If so, the choke valve should be open fully.
4 - Rust is somewhat normal as long as the fitting is not rusted through.

Sorry mate you couldn't be more wrong.
Thr bypass is a valve that allows central heating circulation to continue when all zones are closed.
The thermo valve is a TCV. Thermostatic cylinder valve. It closes the heating circuit that heats your hot water when it's up to temperature. They're rubbish.
The choke valve is a balance valve. It restricts the flow of the heating circuit that heats your water. It restricts the water flow so that there's a balance between this circuit and the radiator circuit. The rust is normal enough

tedimc

Dtp1979, I stand corrected. Should have made better uses of my summers.

magnethead

THanks for the replies guys
I should have mentioned that this is a two bed apartment, all the plumbing is on the same level apart from the 2 connected water tanks in the atic, which has four copper pipes dropping from it, one to the bottom of the cylinder Tedimc said and another to the shower, still working out what the other two are.

I didn't see these replies so i tested it out today and decided to run a test...I closed the Choke off completely and it did as Dtp1979 said, the Hot Water tank didn't heat at all and just the Rads heated up to 48c at the top and 42c at the bottom after a hours heating from Cold, Does that sound pants? Not really that hot, I could hold my hand on it easy which I don't think you should be able to do, and I guess that's with no hot water been tapped off to the cylinder :eek:

Thanks, I now know what a choke valve is getting far too happy with this introduction to plumbing...

So the TCV is rubbish because they keep failing? or they are pointless because the Gas heater should maintain the TEmp?

Another Newbie question, should the By-Pass always be open then? It makes sense that the heating Circulation should continue if all other circuits are closed, so the boiler doesn't burn itself out I guess.....but if it should always be open, then why have it there? maintenance for removing items like the cylinder maybe??

THanks for your patience

gebbel

Dtp1979 wrote: »

The thermo valve is a TCV. Thermostatic cylinder valve. It closes the heating circuit that heats your hot water when it's up to temperature. They're rubbish

I'm interested in this opinion. I am waiting on a competent person to install one of these as part of an upgrade to my basic system. Please elaborate on why they are rubbish.

Dtp1979

gebbel wrote: »

I'm interested in this opinion. I am waiting on a competent person to install one of these as part of an upgrade to my basic system. Please elaborate on why they are rubbish.

They often fail basically. Get a motorised valve fitted, along with a cylinder stat and interlock it to the boiler

I find cyltrol valves work well in situations where fitting a motorised valve isn't practical or financially viable to fit.

http://www.uk-plumbing.com/drayton-cyltrol-valve-1bsp-angle-p-1377.html

Dtp1979

magnethead wrote: »

THanks for the replies guys
I should have mentioned that this is a two bed apartment, all the plumbing is on the same level apart from the 2 connected water tanks in the atic, which has four copper pipes dropping from it, one to the bottom of the cylinder Tedimc said and another to the shower, still working out what the other two are.

I didn't see these replies so i tested it out today and decided to run a test...I closed the Choke off completely and it did as Dtp1979 said, the Hot Water tank didn't heat at all and just the Rads heated up to 48c at the top and 42c at the bottom after a hours heating from Cold, Does that sound pants? Not really that hot, I could hold my hand on it easy which I don't think you should be able to do, and I guess that's with no hot water been tapped off to the cylinder :eek:

Thanks, I now know what a choke valve is getting far too happy with this introduction to plumbing...

So the TCV is rubbish because they keep failing? or they are pointless because the Gas heater should maintain the TEmp?

Another Newbie question, should the By-Pass always be open then? It makes sense that the heating Circulation should continue if all other circuits are closed, so the boiler doesn't burn itself out I guess.....but if it should always be open, then why have it there? maintenance for removing items like the cylinder maybe??

THanks for your patience

I'd install an auto bypass. The one you have should be open but having it open is robbing the circulation from the rads. An auto bypass should only open when all circuits close

gebbel

gary71 wrote: »

I find cyltrol valves work well in situations where fitting a motorised valve isn't practical or financially viable to fit.

http://www.uk-plumbing.com/drayton-cyltrol-valve-1bsp-angle-p-1377.html

This limits the hot water temperature from getting too hot....but apart from safety does it save any money? Cheers

gebbel

gebbel wrote: »

This limits the hot water temperature from getting too hot....but apart from safety does it save any money? Cheers

Yes, by limiting the temperature of the hot water you reduce fuel wastage.

magnethead

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I'd install an auto bypass. The one you have should be open but having it open is robbing the circulation from the rads. An auto bypass should only open when all circuits close

Hi, ok.. If it's robbing circulation, can I leave it open just a crack(single turn from closed), would that be enough to leave the circuit technically open or would it put too much strain on the pump if the circuits did all close?
If I just closed it off altogether, would I not be safe enough with the over pressure dump valve in the back of the Gas water heater?

THe Gas heater is never going to be used more then an hour, and if it was the Rad circuit would be open for sure:D Look at me trying to do away with all the safety features....Maybe I could just pull the head off that TCV and the By-Pass would never be needed?

Found an automatic By-Pass ebay, THanks I see they operate under water pressure, no need for fancy electronics to trigger them.
Good stuff, I'll add that to the list of stuff, once I get a better understanding how this heating circuit game works or drown myself in the process :eek:

magnethead

gary71 wrote: »

I find cyltrol valves work well in situations where fitting a motorised valve isn't practical or financially viable to fit.

http://www.uk-plumbing.com/drayton-cyltrol-valve-1bsp-angle-p-1377.html

WOW 120 pound to replace that TCV!! Jaysus, If the cylinder overheats, it will just send hot water up the vent tube...Is it really that important to have some kinda close off valve on your cylinder...

magnethead

magnethead wrote: »

WOW 120 pound to replace that TCV!! Jaysus, If the cylinder overheats, it will just send hot water up the vent tube...Is it really that important to have some kinda close off valve on your cylinder...

Yep.

Imagine you have the tap open if it over heats.

You are storing hot water you can choose to do it in a safe manor where it's controllable or in a manor where those who are youngest or oldest are most at risk of being scolded if a problem occurred.

magnethead

Love it Can't argue with that....so the TCV stays...but I'll have to think hard about laying about 120 pound on one, I'll add that to the bottom of the list of upgrades ;p

That Auto-By-pass is at the top currently

THanks again for the advice

magnethead

magnethead wrote: »

Love it Can't argue with that....so the TCV stays...but I'll have to think hard about laying about 120 pound on one, I'll add that to the bottom of the list of upgrades ;p

That Auto-By-pass is at the top currently

THanks again for the advice

Have you confirmed your TCV requires replacing?

As already mentioned if it's practically to do so I'd up grade the heating controls so you can have timed heating and hot water with thermostats controlling the temperatures.

I'm not a fan of balancing valves but I'm a big fan of auto bypasses.

I would advise you to save up and do it altogether as it usually draining and refilling the heating system that costs the money.

magnethead

Nope, It's 10 years old and Dtp1979 along with some others said they're crap....THe GAs Boiler has one of those standard Digital timers on it...CE123 something..little LED screen on it.

It normally only comes on for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening...It has never been set on for an extended period yet.
THe Hot press is on the other side of the apartment from the Boiler but I could easily wire through the Atic space.....maybe a 10 Meter long TC reaches back to the control unit (Hadn't thought of that, THanks)...that's if the control unit can take in that kinda input...might need some sensor that breaks of makes the circuit.

WHy does draining and refilling a heating system cost money? because it uses up a load of time for a plumber?


WHat By-Pass valve would you recommend since you are a fan
something like this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reliance-22mm-Straight-Automatic-By-pass-Valve-/391283561294

I might drop into HEat Merchants on the way home and see what they have

Thanks
NAthan

magnethead

magnethead wrote: »

Nope, It's 10 years old and Dtp1979 along with some others said they're crap....THe GAs Boiler has one of those standard Digital timers on it...CE123 something..little LED screen on it.

They give a element of controllability and are much better than having no control.

magnethead wrote: »

It normally only comes on for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening...It has never been set on for an extended period yet.
THe Hot press is on the other side of the apartment from the Boiler but I could easily wire through the Atic space.....maybe a 10 Meter long TC reaches back to the control unit (Hadn't thought of that, THanks)...that's if the control unit can take in that kinda input...might need some sensor that breaks of makes the circuit.

Your heating can be wired and plumbed(system allowing)to give you separate time and temperature control, this although very handy may not give you a quick payback as your use of controls is quite minimal.

magnethead wrote: »

WHy does draining and refilling a heating system cost money? because it uses up a load of time for a plumber?

You've answered your own question

magnethead wrote: »

WHat By-Pass valve would you recommend since you are a fan
something like this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reliance-22mm-Straight-Automatic-By-pass-Valve-/391283561294

I might drop into HEat Merchants on the way home and see what they have

Thanks
NAthan

Any Auto-bypass you choose to fit should do the job, they have a massive impact on increasing gas boiler longevity, can help remove noise issues and help reduce circulation issues as the system gets older.

magnethead

ok, The pipe is 15mm that it's on, so I'll need to use reducers because all these auto-Bypasses are 22mm input..

THe pressure adjustments on them run roughly from 0.2 to 0.6 bar..... But this Gas heating system sits at 1bar.....Will that not just hold the auto-bypass open all the time?

THanks

EDIT: Damn, it a differential pressure I guess, so I can go ahead and get it...

SOME INFO: automatic bypass valves also prevent pump pressure from climbing significantly above design levels, thus reducing the risk of noise in the system..

magnethead

Cost of the ByPass,

these ByPass valves range in Value from 90 Euro to 20 Euro
http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/en/heating/domestic-controls-valves/danfoss/danfoss-randall-auto-by-pass-valve-avdo15-auto-by-pass-valve-15-mm/

I don't want to buy a crap one, Does a Apartment heating system really warrant a 90 Bypass valve or is there any point paying that kinda money?

THanks

magnethead

magnethead wrote: »

Cost of the ByPass,

these ByPass valves range in Value from 90 Euro to 20 Euro
http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/en/heating/domestic-controls-valves/danfoss/danfoss-randall-auto-by-pass-valve-avdo15-auto-by-pass-valve-15-mm/

I don't want to buy a crap one, Does a Apartment heating system really warrant a 90 Bypass valve or is there any point paying that kinda money?

THanks

Payed €16 for mine and it works fine.