Luas drivers seeking pay rise

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Surprised nobody brought this up yet :rolleyes:

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0928/730976-luas-drivers-pay/

The pay claim could cost €6m a year

Luas drivers are to seek a pay increase of around 40% in line with the pay scales of Irish Rail train drivers.

The claim will be presented at the Labour Court tomorrow.

The 172 Luas drivers who belong to SIPTU currently earn a maximum of around €42,000, while around 350 Irish Rail drivers can earn up to around €60,000.

The Labour Court is unlikely to issue a recommendation tomorrow, but if the claim were to succeed, it would add €6 million a year to the operating costs for the service.

A spokesperson for operating company Transdev said the company was on course for a loss this year and could not afford the proposed increase. 

Luas drivers' salaries are significantly lower than those of DART suburban or Irish Rail mainline drivers.

However, their earnings compare favorably with pay rates for the 4,000 Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann drivers.

In addition, the Luas drivers did not experience the cuts in pay and conditions suffered by CIÉ group employees during the economic crisis.

The Luas drivers also received the full 6% due under the last national wage agreement, which was never paid to CIÉ employees.

Drivers are also concerned about the introduction of the Luas cross-city service in 2017, which they fear could result in higher working hours.

Any pay deal secured by Luas drivers will be closely watched by the more substantial numbers of workers in the CIÉ group.

I'm glad to see the lads looking for a rise for the job they do. Sad to see the private company knocking it on the head straight away but not surprising.

cdebru

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Surprised nobody brought this up yet :rolleyes:

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0928/730976-luas-drivers-pay/







I'm glad to see the lads looking for a rise for the job they do. Sad to see the private company knocking it on the head straight away but not surprising.

Hmmm the silence is deafening.

Best of luck to the Luas drivers, I doubt you will get 40% but if you don't ask and all that.

mimi90

Whats going on here?
The Luas drivers are going off script, they are supposed to be the private Knights in shining armour rescuing the Irish public from the greedy pigs in CIE.

Amirani

I think a maximum of €42,000 is perfectly fine for a Luas driver. The average or minimum however may no be sufficient.

Regardless of whether or not a pay rise is justified or not, I don't believe their pay should be benchmarked against CIE drivers. €60,000 is high for a train driver, and is more of a legacy figure than anything else.

Terrontress

Amirani wrote: »

I think a maximum of €42,000 is perfectly fine for a Luas driver. The average or minimum however may no be sufficient.

Regardless of whether or not a pay rise is justified or not, I don't believe their pay should be benchmarked against CIE drivers. €60,000 is high for a train driver, and is more of a legacy figure than anything else.

I'd imagine the training of train drivers has something to do with it. If it takes CIE a year to train them up, they will lose all that if the driver walks. Admittedly it isn't the most transferable skill in Ireland but if they were paying €42k pa to train drivers, I'm sure they could easily find something else paying similar which doesn't involve waking up at 5 am, getting home past midnight, being on your own all day, or have people committing suicide in front of your train.

I think train driving requires a premium.

Nichard Dixon

I find it difficult to see how driving a LUAS could be worth €60,000, so much more than a Dublin bus driver. If anything, the latter has the more difficult job.

tobsey

If there are 172 workers earning a maximum of 42,000. How would it cost 6m to pay them a Mac of 60,000? Increasing every driver by 18k amounts to just over 3m. Where's the other 3m go? Employers prsi isn't 100% past time I checked.

mikeym

Greedy shower I would love to be on the money they're on.

MagicMarker

There's 2 Luas lines, how the **** are there 172 drivers?

Losty Dublin

MagicMarker wrote: »

There's 2 Luas lines, how the **** are there 172 drivers?

Luas runs for 18-19 hours a day seven days a week. At any one time theres between 20 to 30 sets in traffic on both lines so yeah that many drivers would be needed.

Vic_08

Amirani wrote: »

I think a maximum of €42,000 is perfectly fine for a Luas driver. The average or minimum however may no be sufficient.

Regardless of whether or not a pay rise is justified or not, I don't believe their pay should be benchmarked against CIE drivers. €60,000 is high for a train driver, and is more of a legacy figure than anything else.

Is any of that based on fact? What is this "legacy" you mention?

Captain Chaos

Terrontress wrote: »

, I'm sure they could easily find something else paying similar which doesn't involve waking up at 5 am, getting home past midnight, being on your own all day, or have people committing suicide in front of your train.

I think train driving requires a premium.

I have all that in my job except for having people jump in front of me and I'd love to be on anywhere near €42k a year. Personally I'd love to do their job for that money, I have a friend that drives on the Red Line and once you are fine working shifts it's a relatively handy number for good money.

They do have alot of responsibilty of having to watch for drunks and junkies holding onto the trams as it leaves stops though.

Amirani

Vic_08 wrote: »

Is any of that based on fact? What is this "legacy" you mention?

It's clearly an opinion, I would've thought my language made that clear.

Re legacy terms and conditions (including pay) - they exist for most organisations that have been in existence for a long time, particularly unionised and public organisations. In this case, legacy would refer to the fact that wages are based partially on historical factors rather than pure market factors. If Irish Rail only came into existence today, they would be unlikely to be paying their drivers 60k p/a.

cdebru

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I have all that in my job except for having people jump in front of me and I'd love to be on anywhere near €42k a year. Personally I'd love to do their job for that money, I have a friend that drives on the Red Line and once you are fine working shifts it's a relatively handy number for good money.

They do have alot of responsibilty of having to watch for drunks and junkies holding onto the trams as it leaves stops though.

So keep an eye out, they will presumably be hiring in the next 18 to 24 months for the new line, and you may even be earning more than that by then.

Vic_08

Amirani wrote: »

It's clearly an opinion, I would've thought my language made that clear.

Re legacy terms and conditions (including pay) - they exist for most organisations that have been in existence for a long time, particularly unionised and public organisations. In this case, legacy would refer to the fact that wages are based partially on historical factors rather than pure market factors. If Irish Rail only came into existence today, they would be unlikely to be paying their drivers 60k p/a.

So uninformed opinion then, excellent. Just what this emotive topic needs more of.

UK comparison (privatised industry):

Train driver: Trainee drivers can earn from around £20,000 to £30,000 a year, depending on the company and stage of training. Qualified drivers can earn from £35,000 to over £60,000 a year.

Tram driver: Trainee drivers can earn from £14,500 to £19,000 a year. Experienced drivers can earn up to £24,000 a year.

Source: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk

Hotblack Desiato

Cut train drivers down to what tram drivers get, problem solved.

Dublin Bus drivers deserve to be paid more than either, between dealing with **** drivers and **** passengers

the_syco

Do the Luas drivers run over much people?

Losty Dublin

tobsey wrote: »

If there are 172 workers earning a maximum of 42,000. How would it cost 6m to pay them a Mac of 60,000? Increasing every driver by 18k amounts to just over 3m. Where's the other 3m go? Employers prsi isn't 100% past time I checked.

Up to about 20 years ago, train drivers in Ireland had a very low basic wage. Overtime and out of hour premiums were what gave them a reasonable income but at a serious cost. 60 and 70 hour weeks were a given, most drivers found it impossible to take their annual leave entitlements due to the lack of cover whike sick leave levels were high. It's only since about 2000 that rostering and salaries have become more level, comfortable and regular.

Another factor that has helped salaries has been the elimination of train guards. Drivers now fulfil most of their duties and have had this reflected in their salaries. Others allowances have been integrated into the base salary as a whole as work patterns and the like have changed to modern practices.

Terrontress

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I have all that in my job except for having people jump in front of me and I'd love to be on anywhere near €42k a year. Personally I'd love to do their job for that money, I have a friend that drives on the Red Line and once you are fine working shifts it's a relatively handy number for good money.

They do have alot of responsibilty of having to watch for drunks and junkies holding onto the trams as it leaves stops though.

If you walk, is it going to take your employer to train someone fora year to replace you? And have to pay that person while training them? I know it sounds odd because it is IÉ who train the drivers and empower them to be so valuable, but that's the nub of the issue. Better to keep staff turnover low by offering a better package than they are likely to get elsewhere.

markpb

Terrontress wrote:

If you walk, is it going to take your employer to train someone fora year to replace you? And have to pay that person while training them? I know it sounds odd because it is IÉ who train the drivers and empower them to be so valuable, but that's the nub of the issue. Better to keep staff turnover low by offering a better package than they are likely to get elsewhere.

Where are Irish Rail train drivers going to go?

Amirani

Vic_08 wrote: »

So uninformed opinion then, excellent. Just what this emotive topic needs more of.

UK comparison (privatised industry):

Train driver: Trainee drivers can earn from around £20,000 to £30,000 a year, depending on the company and stage of training. Qualified drivers can earn from £35,000 to over £60,000 a year.

Tram driver: Trainee drivers can earn from £14,500 to £19,000 a year. Experienced drivers can earn up to £24,000 a year.

Source: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk

I don't care what at train drivers in the UK earn. That in no way validates your point.

People working in my industry in the UK pretty much earn a minimum of 6 figures. I don't. Do I think my pay should be benchmarked against theirs? No, it's a completely different economy.

For what it's worth, UK train driver wages are also based on legacy factors.

Jamie2k9

markpb wrote: »

Where are Irish Rail train drivers going to go?

More like who would have them, the Greek might come to an end by 2020 hopefully.

cdebru

markpb wrote: »

Where are Irish Rail train drivers going to go?

They wouldn't necessarily leave to drive a train, they may prefer a job that doesn't involve shifts, weekend work, the responsibility etc.

Bray Head

It doesn't really come down to skill level or responsbility, it comes down to the capacity to cause disruption via industrial action.

Air traffic controllers, as an analogy, are also very well paid.

Geuze

mikeym wrote: »

Greedy shower I would love to be on the money they're on.

Note that 42k pa in Dublin is by no means a great wage.

Average earnings nationwide are 36k in 2014.

lawlolawl

Bray Head wrote: »

Air traffic controllers, as an analogy, are also very well paid.

Yeah, it's almost as both professions are solely responsible for the lives of hundreds of people at a time........

end of the road

Amirani wrote: »

I think a maximum of €42,000 is perfectly fine for a Luas driver. The average or minimum however may no be sufficient.

Regardless of whether or not a pay rise is justified or not, I don't believe their pay should be benchmarked against CIE drivers. €60,000 is high for a train driver, and is more of a legacy figure than anything else.

its at the higher end of the market rate but it doesn't seem to be an uncommon wage for a driver.

mikeym wrote: »

Greedy shower I would love to be on the money they're on.

not one bit greedy. everyone would ask for a pay rise if they could. i'm sure you could apply if you would like to be a luas driver.

end of the road

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Cut train drivers down to what tram drivers get, problem solved.

yes problem solved indeed. the drivers will probably all leave for other driving jobs abroad where they may earn the same money and irish rail will basically have no drivers and no hope of recruiting suitable replacements. try again.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Dublin Bus drivers deserve to be paid more than either, between dealing with **** drivers and **** passengers

they don't. they deserve a good wage but driving a train will have a hell of a lot more responsibility then any other land based method due to many factors.

Nermal

end of the road wrote: »

yes problem solved indeed. the drivers will probably all leave for other driving jobs abroad where they may earn the same money and irish rail will basically have no drivers and no hope of recruiting suitable replacements. try again.

Nonsense. If Irish Rail tried to recruit train drivers at 42Kpa they'd be heavily oversubscribed. This isn't like being a street sweeper where pay must compensate for poor work conditions - people actively WANT to be train drivers.

It also has nothing to do with what they 'deserve' (who thinks they're paid what they deserve?) or how many lives they're in charge of (do drivers on the deserted WRC trains get paid less?)

As the only accurate post said above: they're paid according to their capacity to cause industrial disruption. If the government had backbone, they'd get paid less.

Icepick

The only logical outcome is to cut train drivers' pay.

People suggesting they would get that kind of money anywhere else must be joking.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

Nonsense. If Irish Rail tried to recruit train drivers at 42Kpa they'd be heavily oversubscribed.

with hardly any chance of being able to recruit anyone suitable. so not nonsense at all.

Nermal wrote: »

This isn't like being a street sweeper where pay must compensate for poor work conditions - people actively WANT to be train drivers.

you can want to be one all you like but it takes a very special person to be taken on in this very specialised job.

Nermal wrote: »

It also has nothing to do with what they 'deserve' (who thinks they're paid what they deserve?) or how many lives they're in charge of (do drivers on the deserted WRC trains get paid less?)

it very much has everything to do with the responsibility and comparable train driving jobs elsewhere

Nermal wrote: »

As the only accurate post said above: they're paid according to their capacity to cause industrial disruption.

no, they aren't. that post you refer to is far from accurate.

Nermal wrote: »

If the government had backbone, they'd get paid less.

they wouldn't. the government very much have backbone, but they realise that for such a job a good wage has to be payed.

end of the road

Icepick wrote: »

The only logical outcome is to cut train drivers' pay.

if you want no trains or drivers it is

Icepick wrote: »

People suggesting they would get that kind of money anywhere else must be joking.

no, they aren't.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Icepick wrote: »

The only logical outcome is to cut train drivers' pay.

People suggesting they would get that kind of money anywhere else must be joking.

Not true. The amount of people that are leaving employment with Dublin bus going to Canada or Australia to do exactly the same job is very high.

Canada bus drivers for example are much better paid than here taking all factors into consideration. Nearly tempted to do it myself.

And by comparison train/tram /subway drivers over in those places are the same regarding better pay

Might also be a reason why Dublin bus is struggling and the fact Irish rail are looking for train drivers from the bus companies to go over as they have exhausted all options withing Irish rail

cdebru

Nermal wrote: »

Nonsense. If Irish Rail tried to recruit train drivers at 42Kpa they'd be heavily oversubscribed. This isn't like being a street sweeper where pay must compensate for poor work conditions - people actively WANT to be train drivers.

It also has nothing to do with what they 'deserve' (who thinks they're paid what they deserve?) or how many lives they're in charge of (do drivers on the deserted WRC trains get paid less?)

As the only accurate post said above: they're paid according to their capacity to cause industrial disruption. If the government had backbone, they'd get paid less.

And how long and how much does it cost to train a train driver ? And haven't spent all that money and time if the pay is not enough to retain them then what ?

The capacity to cause disruption is far less a factor than needing to retain staff that it would take a year and cost tens of thousands to replace. If it is just capacity to cause disruption then why aren't Dublin Bus drivers paid much more ? Dublin Bus carries almost 3 times the number of passengers as Irish rail and could cause more damaging disruption as it is all based in Dublin which the virtual entire economy depends on. In fact the Luas nearly carries as many passengers as IE and again all Dublin based, if the ability to cause disruption was the determining factor why haven't we got millionaire bus and Luas drivers?

cdebru

Icepick wrote: »

The only logical outcome is to cut train drivers' pay.

People suggesting they would get that kind of money anywhere else must be joking.

Logical ? Really ? So who will drive the trains afterwards ? Your logical outcome would realistically shut the railways probably permanently.

LuckyLloyd

Fair play to them.

Teyla Emmagan

I hope the labour court throws this out. Driving a luas is not comparable to driving a train. There is nowhere near the same level of responsibility, or complexity, involved. 42k seems fair for the job. And you don't even have to deal with the public like the bus drivers do. You're all safe and snug in your little cubicle for the day.

The reason the train drivers get paid so well is to do with the unions, who have CIE stitched up. Don't they even have some mad claim in at the moment for work that was done in the past? At a time when their members were very well compensated, as they always are. I personally think driving a train would be an awful job, and I think they deserve to be paid well for it, but if you were to get rid of the unions and rehire them all I still don't think they'd make as much as 60k. There are legacy reasons for their pay scale, as another poster said.

In any case an additional 6m a year of a wages bill is sheer madness.

snickerpuss

The figure of €60,000 has been rounded up. Train drivers' pay at the top end of the scale is more in the €52/53,000 bracket. It's a certainly a good salary but it's comparable, if not a little lower, than what a loco driver in the UK and Europe would earn.

From UK Careers website: "Qualified drivers can earn from £35,000 to over £60,000 a year." And that's in the private sector.

https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/TrainDriver.aspx#sthash.GTKpDUy4.dpuf

As someone said there is a lot of responsibility attached to the job along with constantly changing shift times and the possibility that if something did go wrong you can be prosecuted under the Railway Safety Act.

Additionally, now that loco drivers are the often the only staff members on trains there is a lot more for them to deal with - fixing faults, sorting out passenger problems, antisocial behaviour, loading wheelchair passengers when there's no station staff and also actually driving the train!

Infini

Icepick wrote: »

The only logical outcome is to cut train drivers' pay.

People suggesting they would get that kind of money anywhere else must be joking.

Never gonna happen. Besides if anything people across the board need more money across the board because the cost of living has risen dramatically over the years but pay hasnt kept up. Housing Crisis, Homeless crisis, people skint everywhere all because of the taxes and such lumped on people.

People complain theyre overpaid? Seriously that figure only LOOKS like a lot till you factor in the real costs of living. If anything its as bad as the 80s if not worse because of what happened over the years.

Hope the luas drivers get their pay rise 42k isnt alot to raise a family on in this economy it only seems alot. Anyone saying they dont deserve it is just being a hater as far as I'm concerned theyre getting too jealous of them too easily.

Also

snickerpuss wrote: »

The figure of €60,000 has been rounded up. Train drivers' pay at the top end of the scale is more in the €52/53,000 bracket. It's a certainly a good salary but it's comparable, if not a little lower, than what a loco driver in the UK and Europe would earn.

Pretty much this. Drivers pay was quoted as like €50~55k last time so how come its €60k all of a sudden when most employees in Irish Rail havent had any pay rise for 8 years?! Yes EIGHT. Last time there was a pay increase was like 2007~8 and then the pay was cut last year after the strike in which time the company has done nothing since which is why the Irish Rail drivers are pissed off enough to strike again.

unkel

snickerpuss wrote: »

The figure of €60,000 has been rounded up. Train drivers' pay at the top end of the scale is more in the €52/53,000 bracket. It's a certainly a good salary but it's comparable, if not a little lower, than what a loco driver in the UK and Europe would earn.

A train driver in continental Europe (NL / BE / DE) earns about €35k gross

I have no idea why one in Ireland would have to earn more

Geuze

unkel wrote: »

A train driver in continental Europe (NL / BE / DE) earns about €35k gross

I have no idea why one in Ireland would have to earn more

For a start, the cost of living is 20% higher in Irl than in DE.

Pkiernan

Driving a train is really hard, and deserves well over 60k...... ffs

unkel

Geuze wrote: »

For a start, the cost of living is 20% higher in Irl than in DE.

And taxes here (incl local taxes) are 20% lower, so no reason gross wages shouldn't be roughly similar

Tram drivers on the continent are roughly on €25k gross...

snickerpuss

unkel wrote: »

A train driver in continental Europe (NL / BE / DE) earns about €35k gross

I have no idea why one in Ireland would have to earn more

Why do you suppose they are paid a similar wage in the UK then? Would you be in favour of cutting salaries for all jobs to the level of Germany or Spain etc where the cost of living is far lower or is it just those of transport/public workers?

I suppose you would need to know their conditions as well and if it includes benefits and overtime etc. For example I know in some countries train drivers work 35 hours per week whereas it is 48 hours per week here. Additionally the Working Time Act does not apply to loco drivers, i.e. they can work up to 12 days in a row with only 12 hours between shifts and they may have no rostered breaks.

end of the road

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Driving a luas is not comparable to driving a train. There is nowhere near the same level of responsibility, or complexity, involved.

how long are, or did you drive a luas for?

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

you don't even have to deal with the public like the bus drivers do. You're all safe and snug in your little cubicle for the day.

so what? they are drivers, not customer service people.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

The reason the train drivers get paid so well is to do with the unions, who have CIE stitched

the reason the drivers get payed so well, is so they will stick around. train drivers in general can earn a high wage once they get up to the high end of the scale, its nothing unique to ireland.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

if you were to get rid of the unions and rehire them all I still don't think they'd make as much as 60k.

oh yes they would. only those at the higher end of the scale will earn 60k, thats due to their experience.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

There are legacy reasons for their pay scale, as another poster said.

There aren't. train driving once you have years under your belt is a job where a wage on that scale can be earned.

Icepick

end of the road wrote: »

yes problem solved indeed. the drivers will probably all leave for other driving jobs abroad where they may earn the same money and irish rail will basically have no drivers and no hope of recruiting suitable replacements.

:pac::pac::pac:

Icepick

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Not true. The amount of people that are leaving employment with Dublin bus going to Canada or Australia to do exactly the same job is very high.

How many have left?

Icepick

snickerpuss wrote: »

Germany or Spain etc where the cost of living is far lower

No it isn't far lower. Have you ever lived or at least been there?

Victor

Pkiernan wrote: »

Driving a train is really hard, and deserves well over 60k...... ffs

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLIaR498Tr9_rKvtgjFyV3Nw4BUGw1J0nBfmQsCQoBItN3YKHZ

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