Considering a New Car for 2016 ? Ever considered Changing To Electric ?

It's the time of year and you might be considering a new car, head over to the ev and hybrid section here and we can discuss the pro's and cons of electric motoring.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1634

Not everyone is aware electric cars are actually on Irish roads and available to buy now and not everyone is aware that they are proper functional cars. Range limitations scare some people off but I have driven 20,200 Kms since January 20 th 2015 and find I ham having to restrict my usage to limit my mileage for the lease. I am finding most people's lack of interest in electric cars in Ireland is because they feel there is nothing better or cheaper than diesel or buy a car based on the cheap motor tax. The average irish Commute is 18 Kms according to http://www.thejournal.ie/commute-much-working-people-spend-eight-hours-a-week-travelling-187889-Jul2011/ Which is well withing the range of a Nissan leaf, BMW I3, Volkswagen E-Golf and Renault Zoe.

This discussion is more about what you can expect to save over 162,000 Kms of driving compared to a 55 mpg diesel (real mpg calculation not some "motorway" or "city" trip computer reading ).

Please try keep the discussion to the link below.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=97142612#post97142612

dogmatix

I've seen an increasing number of Nissan leaf's on the roads.

You mention peoples fear of range issues and then say you have driven 20k plus on your car but that is a different issue altogether - range issues in my mind refers to the uselessness of an electric car to get more then 100km (if you are lucky) on a single charge. Fine if you are commuting in and out of the city from the suburbs but useless for the weekend if you want to head south to Glenmalure or further for a bit of hillwalking.

Electric cars in my own opinion have two major issues – first and most importantly is lack of a useable range and less importantly time taken to recharge. If even the first could be solved then I’d be interested.

DrPhilG

Describing the need to recharge as useless is like an EV driver calling the need to spend a few hundred € a month on diesel useless.

It's a simple trade. Is the need to recharge on longer journeys worth the huge savings per year?

My daily commute is about 25 miles so I rarely need to charge on the go. If I'm going from Donegal to Belfast I'd be stopping for 15 minutes at the Glenshane services anyway to go to the loo and have a nip around the shop. Nowadays in a Leaf, that 15 minutes also recharges me so there is no extra inconvenience.

Admittedly Dublin runs are a bit more awkward. I would normally have stopped for 15 minutes in Monaghan and again for 10 in Applegreen. Now I add 10 minutes in Omagh and add maybe 5 minutes to the other 2 stops so an extra 20 minutes total.

But on the other hand I'm saving over €2000 a year now. My calculations are based on 100% home charging by the way so given that I charge for free at public chargers currently those savings are higher.

It won't suit everyone, but it certainly suits me, even with the "uselessness" of the charging requirements.

death1234567

dogmatix wrote: »

Electric cars in my own opinion have two major issues – first and most importantly is lack of a useable range and less importantly time taken to recharge. If even the first could be solved then I’d be interested.

There are also major issues around the lifetime of the battery pack plus it's degrading performance over time.

Red Kev

It works for some. I know someone who is going electric, they have a 65km round trip commute on rural roads. Typical 2 car family, they'll keep their 08 Ford Galaxy for all long distance use.

He has solar panels and batteries at home so most of his fuel costs are sorted. He reckons he'll save a fair bit over the 5-6 years he intends to keep the car, only unknown is resale value at the end.

DrPhilG

death1234567 wrote: »

There are also major issues around the lifetime of the battery pack plus it's degrading performance over time.

What are the major issues?

death1234567

death1234567 wrote: »

There are also major issues around the lifetime of the battery pack plus it's degrading performance over time.

The Life of the 132+ leaf battery has been substantially improved, A U.K Taxi had clocked 102,000 miles and lost less than 10% capacity but he had an enormous amount of fast charges which makes is even more impressive but the savings to him over that distance were huge. And it's still more than usable to him

The longer range batteries in 2018 won't have any longevity issues because they'll be used a lot less.

dogmatix

dogmatix wrote: »

I've seen an increasing number of Nissan leaf's on the roads.

You mention peoples fear of range issues and then say you have driven 20k plus on your car but that is a different issue altogether - range issues in my mind refers to the uselessness of an electric car to get more then 100km (if you are lucky) on a single charge. Fine if you are commuting in and out of the city from the suburbs but useless for the weekend if you want to head south to Glenmalure or further for a bit of hillwalking.

Electric cars in my own opinion have two major issues – first and most importantly is lack of a useable range and less importantly time taken to recharge. If even the first could be solved then I’d be interested.

I could drive 40,000 Kms a year but limited to the lease. Anyway we already have the diesel , mainly to keep the miles off the leaf. But I can think of only once this year I really would have needed it for the Cork/kerry trip.

2018 is the year of the affordable 150-200 mile range electrics and the 600 mile tesla model S, 2020 will see over 700 miles in the Model S but in all honesty that's a bit mental most of the time you will need up to 100 miles max.

The 2016 Leaf will have the option of a 30 kwh battery for a real 140-180 Kms.

I won't need more than 200 miles in a day ever and if I do I can fast charge another 100 miles easily.

So for me 60 Kwh is all I could ever need.

NIMAN

Of course an EV will not suit every person's lifestyle, but the thing is, it does suit a lot more peoples than many are willing to admit.

A study a few years ago said that an EV with its current (low) range would suit approx 80% of Europeans in their daily car use/commute. But will you find 80% of people you talk to saying they could live with an EV? Seriously doubt it. Most I talk to say it wouldn't suit them, despite 99% of their driving being short distance around one town.

They will always throw up the "what if I suddenly have to go to the airport". How many of us actually have unplanned and unexpected trips like this? Probably very very few, yet for many its a reason to straight out poo-poo the idea of an EV and stick to their ICE. Especially for 2 car households, the reasons NOT to buy an EV are even less.

Of course there are some people an EV simply wouldn't work for. That's fair enough and understandable, until they come with a range that suits them. But one way or another EVs are here to stay, whether some like it or not. The technology will improve dramatically over the coming decade, and I know its only a matter of time before we see big numbers on the roads. Once BMW, Audi, Ford, VW etc are all on board you know its not going away.

Not even the coming decade, 2018 will be the year for electrics.

The average Irish commute is 16 Kms, that says it all, so if electrics are not for everyone then diesel isn't for 99% of the population !

Atlantic Dawn

• Is there a realtime app or website you can go to that will tell you what electric charge points are vacant or do they just show which are available?
• If you leave the car unused would it lose power like a conventional battery, say for example I go to the airport and the car is 60% charged, then when I return should I expect is to be nearly dead or will it hold the majority of the charge?
• When you use the charge points are they all still free? I know there's a card from ESB to use them, do they send you on a statement of power use and how much it would cost if it were not free? Any timeline where the power is to be free until?

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

• Is there a realtime app or website you can go to that will tell you what electric charge points are vacant or do they just show which are available?
• If you leave the car unused would it lose power like a conventional battery, say for example I go to the airport and the car is 60% charged, then when I return should I expect is to be nearly dead or will it hold the majority of the charge?
• When you use the charge points are they all still free? I know there's a card from ESB to use them, do they send you on a statement of power use and how much it would cost if it were not free? Any timeline where the power is to be free until?

Google Ecas charge point map. Currently they don't show vacant only available.

No car won't discharge for many months at 60% . in fact if you're leaving it for a week or two it's ideal to store it below 60% but I wouldn;t be too concerned at 60%.

Charge points free until sometime in 2016, free use promotes abuse !

Cost hasn't been announced.

cros13

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is there a realtime app or website you can go to that will tell you what electric charge points are vacant or do they just show which are available?

That data is recorded and the cars have the ability to display it on the satnav but ESB doesn't yet publish it. That will change next year.

With rapid chargers (which charge you 0-80% in 20 minutes) seeing whether it's occupied in advance is not a big deal, sure you might have to wait a few minutes for someone to finish but the solution to that is increasing the numbers of rapid chargers at popular locations which is what ESB are doing.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Any timeline where the power is to be free until?

December 2016. Costs will be very reasonable, expected to be around double to triple home electricity cost at the public chargers (which would still be 3-4 times cheaper than diesel). It's worth remembering that 80-90% of your charging will be at home... where you can get a night rate meter and cut your cost to a 10th of diesel prices.

One thing that Mad_Lad failed to mention is performance. Most of our EVs will beat pretty much any car on the road off the line. My BMW i3 can do 0-100 in 5.5 seconds with a controller hack (it does 6.5 seconds stock). 0-80 my electric hatchback out-accelerates the current BMW M3.
Electric motors have enormous torque, The Nissan Leaf produces 280NM of torque (equivalent to many 3.0L diesels) and that torque is there from 0rpm to 14,000rpm.

A base Tesla Model S (which unfortunately due to VRT is a bit expensive here (starts at €55k in Germany)) does 0-100 in 5 seconds, seats 5 adults and 2 kids and has 400+km range. The top spec P90DL does 0-100 in 2.8 seconds and is NEDC rated for almost 600km of range.

You have to remember a few salient points:

1. Range is not a limit any more than in your existing car... when you run low you fill up. That's what rapid chargers are for, and there are over 100 of those in Ireland. In fact there is no place in the country where you are more than 40km from a rapid charger. I've driven to London and Berlin in my EV, didn't take me much longer than it took in my diesel Avensis.

2. Battery Life... when we talk about battery lifespan we're not talking about time until the battery fails... we're actually talking about time until the battery has 70% capacity, which is when the warranty usually kicks in. This depends on the chemistry of the battery, your use, whether the battery is thermally managed and climate. In Ireland a 30kWh Nissan Leaf can expect to run for 20 years before reaching 70% capacity. A thermally managed battery like the BMW i3 or Tesla Model S have can last longer than that. The industry standard warranty on the battery is 8 years / 160,000km. Tesla tops this by offering an 8 year / unlimited mileage warranty on the whole powertrain.

3. Servicing... is basically non-existent. My i3's next service is in 2017. The Leaf gets an annual/30,000km visual inspection and tire rotation which costs €99. With the Tesla Model S servicing is totally optional except for when they need to change the gearbox oil....every 12 years.

The Leaf is throttles a lot from 0 Kph to prevent wheel spin which is a problem in high torque front wheel drive cars such as the leaf, the I3 has the upper advantage here where more torque can be applied from the start because it's RWD.

Once at about 20 Kph the Leaf pulls like a train. Hit that throttle and the acceleration is excellent and instant.

Nissan didn't choose RWD and they probably never will because it's designed with low cost production in mind and is built on the same assembly line as their ICE cars to keep costs down.

There is a performance mod from Nissan in Japan I read somewhere.

I hope the GEN II electrics in 2018 have different power options.

There's no reason the Leaf or any other EV can't take much more power than they deliver except to keep stresses down on the battery, the power electronics are usually very over rated and probably good for a lot more power once heat can be kept at bay and of course you don;t go beyond the current limits of the electrics and cables.

I was able to run 20 HP peak through a 1.2 HP rated electric motor, insane acceleration on a bicycle but because acceleration was so fast heat was kept to a minimum because I was pulling peak power only for a short time. But continuous yanking of the throttle and hard acceleration can get things a little too hot but it's hard not to get addicted to that instant electric torque. The most important thing was not to go beyond the current limits of the electronics.

Once high performance electric motorcycles become a lot cheaper motorcyclists will never again go back to ICE bikes.

Unfortunately with my electric bike projects the Motor would heat up fast without cooling, you can't cool a hub motor and electric motors don't like to get too hot or you can demagnetise the magnets and fry the stator windings.

You then have to go with modified scooter hub motors that fit in a normal bicycle rim but your hitting serious power at this point for a bicycle.

My limit was 50 mph before I quickly throttled it back to 40 mph but the acceleration is amazing.