ICU exec - another resignation

cdeb

On the ICU site that the secretary has resigned.

I don't know where this leaves the post of secretary for 2015/16.

But I think it's the fourth resignation from the exec in its current lifetime - Mark Orr as webmaster, Garry O'Grady as Women's Officer and now two secretaries.

This is unprecedented so far as I'm aware. And surely it reflects badly on the current committee if its members can't work within it?

UpTheJunction

Unprecedented? Obviously you are a young one alright. I have seen and heard of far worse.


I suspect he resigned because the amount of things being said and directed towards people on the ICU would be enough to send any sane man or woman running. He probably let it get to him and done the sensible thing of just getting out before he was dragged in even further?

pawntof4

UpTheJunction wrote: »

I suspect he resigned because the amount of things being said and directed towards people on the ICU would be enough to send any sane man or woman running

Why would you suspect that? His resignation came pretty soon after a blog post on the ballynefeigh chess blog. Why not suspect that he was so disgusted after he discovered the behaviour of two of his colleagues on the ICU exec?

UpTheJunction

pawntof4 wrote: »

Why would you suspect that? His resignation came pretty soon after a blog post on the ballynefeigh chess blog. Why not suspect that he was so disgusted after he discovered the behaviour of two of his colleagues on the ICU exec?

What behaviour? That guy Damien Cunningham is not a colleague, he is not on the ICU he is on the UCU. I would be surprised if Eugene even knows or cares about that blog anyway, but maybe your right perhaps the sustained abuse by the Cunningham character and non stop bluster emanating from him has been too much of a negative and he just wanted nothing more to do with any of it all?

We can't know but maybe it will emerge later on?

Sparks

pawntof4 wrote: »

Why would you suspect that? His resignation came pretty soon after a blog post on the ballynefeigh chess blog. Why not suspect that he was so disgusted after he discovered the behaviour of two of his colleagues on the ICU exec?

That's one possible answer; but there's at least one other completely plausible reason before you even get near things like sudden cuts to available free time because of changes in people's jobs or family life.

Sparks

UpTheJunction wrote: »

perhaps the sustained abuse by the Cunningham character

Sustained?
Are we reading the same blog by the same person?
Last I checked, one blog post in response to a dozen or so particularly vile and obnoxious posts on another public website do not constitute "sustained abuse".

UpTheJunction

Sparks wrote: »

That's one possible answer; but there's [link] before you even get near things like sudden cuts to available free time because of changes in people's jobs or family life.

Well spotted, that could be it then. Leave before being pushed. But that assumes that Pat will lose? I don't think that will come to pass. I will be voting for Pat and his people, man for man but maybe I am out of touch. Still just believe in the decency of the man and his motives. Wheres I have many reservations about the why and nature of the other group and their real intentions. Maybe that is unfair or harsh but I prefer to be cautious and play it safe.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

I'd give it a few days on this one. Wouldn't jump to conclusions or speculate. I will say that Eugene was 100% in the role for the right reasons and although he was only part of the executive for 6 weeks or so, he provided the ICU with valuable service during the busy AGM prep time. He dealt with nominees and proposals as well as the rest of the day to day work of an ICU secretary- and did so admirably.

Two questions that I've been asked:

Has Eugene withdrawn his nomination?
I believe so. I will confirm when I know.

Who will present the joint Eugene/Bryan report at the AGM?
I think that both will be in attendance but my guess is that Eugene will present his own work and a summary of Bryan's work also.

Sparks

UpTheJunction wrote: »

Well spotted, that could be it then. Leave before being pushed.

That's not what I was pointing out with that link at all.

pawntof4

UpTheJunction wrote: »

What behaviour? That guy Damien Cunningham is not a colleague, he is not on the ICU he is on the UCU.

That one made me smile... The blog mentions the behaviour of two members of the ICU exec. They were the colleagues and that was the disgusting behavior I was referring to.

UpTheJunction

<snip>

Mod edit - don't need comments like that without some sort of back-up

UpTheJunction

Are you really suggesting that the stuff that the president of the UCU has been doing is appropriate or credible. He has been proven to have mislead and withheld information surely? Is there really a doubt about this? He was not the UCU president at the time he claims he was having talks about the future of the UCU. All the while he mentions 2014 and Jonathan O'Connor when he was not even a member of the ICU executive since October of 2013, unless I am mistaken.

Plenty of strange things going on. Look at the letter to the ICU from the UCU and it seems clear that Pat Fitzsimons has been telling the truth and giving us the facts while the Cunningham guy is evasive and just wrong about too many things. Or at least that is how it seems.

Maybe it is ok to use such coarse and aggressive language as Mr Cunnignham uses when he is on the back foot in a personal capacity, but he writes as Ballynafeigh and signs himself off with president of the UCU on one or other posts in here, And why does anybody think it ok, never mind appropriate to post anything of an official nature in here?

UCU should be posting on their website, ICU the same, and personal views expressed in a personal capacity on their own websites or public space. Meanwhile the rest us can guess and speculate till our hearts content in here, which seems fair enough so long as none of us actually claim to know more than is likely about what really goes on behind closed doors. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

pawntof4

UpTheJunction wrote: »

Are you really suggesting that the stuff that the president of the UCU has been doing is appropriate or credible. He has been proven to have mislead and withheld information surely? Is there really a doubt about this? He was not the UCU president at the time he claims he was having talks about the future of the UCU. All the while he mentions 2014 and Jonathan O'Connor when he was not even a member of the ICU executive since October of 2013, unless I am mistaken.

Plenty of strange things going on. Look at the letter to the ICU from the UCU and it seems clear that Pat Fitzsimons has been telling the truth and giving us the facts while the Cunningham guy is evasive and just wrong about too many things. Or at least that is how it seems.

Maybe it is ok to use such coarse and aggressive language as Mr Cunnignham uses when he is on the back foot in a personal capacity, but he writes as Ballynafeigh and signs himself off with president of the UCU on one or other posts in here, And why does anybody think it ok, never mind appropriate to post anything of an official nature in here?

UCU should be posting on their website, ICU the same, and personal views expressed in a personal capacity on their own websites or public space. Meanwhile the rest us can guess and speculate till our hearts content in here, which seems fair enough so long as none of us actually claim to know more than is likely about what really goes on behind closed doors. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I thought this thread was about the resignation of the Secretary of the ICU?

Lecale

Isn't speculation great! The real question of course is Who is Eugene Doherty?

Tim Harding

Lecale wrote: »

Isn't speculation great! The real question of course is Who is Eugene Doherty?

He is a member of the same club as Pat Fitzsimons [Elm Mount]

CORRECTION: Of course I meant Eugene DONOHUE [not Doherty] ... I was responding to Lecale whom I think also typed the wrong surname in error?

UpTheJunction

Eugene Doherty is not a member of the same club as Pat Fitzsimons, and what would be the point even if he was?

Sparks

UpTheJunction wrote: »

Are you really suggesting that the stuff that the president of the UCU has been doing is appropriate or credible.

I believe so, yes, to both.

He has been proven to have mislead and withheld information surely?

Not even close, since you have to provide evidence of some kind to back up such a claim.

Is there really a doubt about this?

Huge amounts of doubt, to the point where there isn't anything but doubt really. Well. Doubt and random, rather malcontented ne'er-do-wells ranting at him in public on the internet (which is legally publication and therefore subject to the Defamation Act 2009 amongst other things, and for the record I am not referring to the disagreement between his statements and the ICU's official statement on icu.ie -- that's a disagreement, something resolvable by discussion between reasonable people who happen to have different opinions about something; I'm talking about the ranting elsewhere on the FB page where the objective seems to have been to gather as many examples of foul language and defamatory claims as was possible in one place, rather than actually present any evidence or make any argument).

He was not the UCU president at the time he claims he was having talks about the future of the UCU. All the while he mentions 2014 and Jonathan O'Connor when he was not even a member of the ICU executive since October of 2013, unless I am mistaken.

I see. So you think it's unusual when people at Bunratty talk to one another. At the bar. Right.

Plenty of strange things going on. Look at the letter to the ICU from the UCU and it seems clear that Pat Fitzsimons has been telling the truth and giving us the facts while the Cunningham guy is evasive and just wrong about too many things. Or at least that is how it seems.

That's not how it seems to anyone who can read english.
The ICU chair has stated one thing and produced a letter from the UCU secretary as evidence of his position.
The UCU chair has stated another - along with many other members of the UCU board - and has categorically stated that the vote at the UCU AGM on this exact topic did not mean what the ICU chair says it meant, and that this was discussed in detail at that AGM and the vote taken only with that specific framing in place.
Since it's a UCU internal matter, I'm personally inclined to believe the head of the UCU - who was present at the time of the vote and deeply involved in it - has the correct data and that unfortunately imprecise language has caused a misunderstanding that the current tensions have blown out of all proportion, and that certain statements by the ICU PRO (who should have known that the PRO of an NGB is never ever off duty ever so long as he holds that office - and I say that having been a PRO for several years for several bodies) have caused enormous damage to more subtle efforts.

why does anybody think it ok, never mind appropriate to post anything of an official nature in here?

Because it is. You've missed it, obviously, but boards.ie is used by a lot of people, from individuals to clubs to NGBs to NGOs to companies to the state (yes, we've had posts on here from the government in the past, even if they don't have an account on here).
There simply isn't anything to defend about this. It'd be like defending gravity from criticism to even try.

UCU should be posting on their website, ICU the same, and personal views expressed in a personal capacity on their own websites or public space.

The problem with that approach arises when people make political statements about other groups on websites only they control (such as when the ICU posted on their website about the UCU). As everyone else can see, that situation is unlikely to end well.

On a related point, NGB websites should never be used as political billboards for internal politics. They represent the entirety of the sport and all of the members, regardless of their political differences. Every member pays their dues and every member should be represented by the website those dues pay for. When you have groups using websites paid for by everyone to promote themselves for AGM elections, it's an abuse of the other members and a waste of their dues.

If you want to do that kind of thing, don't do it on the NGB's website.

Lecale

Sorry Tim, that was a rhetorical question/dig aimed at the poster UpTheJunction.

On a more serious note, Mr Fitzsimmons is saying on the ICU website

Please note that the statement by Mr Cunningham to the effect that I have mislead members by advising them that the Ulster Chess Union intends to affiliate to the Irish Chess Union is not correct.

Mr Cunningham statement mentioned "rejoining" and not "affiliating".
Mr Newman's letter mentions "affiliating"
So the UCU position is quite consistent, it is only the ICU President's position that appears misleading. Why? As discussed earlier in another thread, this is because he is treating affiliation and re-joining as the same thing, whereas the UCU are saying that they are different things. Hence Mr Cunningham's statement.

Does UpTheJunction believe that this kind of public statement from Mr Fitzsimmons, which is far more prominent than in some thread on this board, is a reasonable statement to make. Does he further believe that the ICU website is an appropriate place to house that statement? If he was webmaster of the ICU website, would he be happy to see it there?

UpTheJunction

You have a remarkable way of thinking Sparks. Truly amazing. I don't believe I have ever seen anything like it.

Be honest now. You are just having a laugh right? I mean this is joke piece to cause a bit of a stir. I mean you don't think there is much sense to almost anything you just posted above?

You are aware that the ICU is not a political party or a government. It is just group of people trying to help run the national governing body of a very small marginal game/activity with a view to making the playing of chess as enjoyable and easy as possible for people throughout the land.

"never ever off duty ever so long as he holds that office"

You really think this? Also btw what can you explain has facebook got to do with any of this? Is there an ICU facebook page you can direct me to so I can understand what you mean.

Tim Harding

UpTheJunction wrote: »

Eugene Doherty is not a member of the same club as Pat Fitzsimons, and what would be the point even if he was?

Of course I meant Eugene DONOHUE [not Doherty] ... I was responding to Lecale whom I think also typed the wrong surname in error?

(I don't know any Eugene Doherty; if there is such a chess-playing person, apologies to him.)

I have edited accordingly.

Can Lecale confirm he did mean Donohue?

UpTheJunction

Tim Harding wrote: »

Of course I meant Eugene DONOHUE [not Doherty] ... I was responding to Lecale whom I think also typed the wrong surname in error?

(I don't know any Eugene Doherty; if there is such a chess-playing person, apologies to him.)

I have edited accordingly.

Can Lecale confirm he did mean Donohue?

Thanks for explaining that, but anyway what was the point if it was Eugene Harding and he was in the same club as Pat Fitzsimons what does it matter?

cdeb

Mod note - I've removed the, shall we say, pointed and groundless post (as indicated in the thread) and the direct replies to it.

Accusations like that need some sort of back-up to be thrown around, and "You're not suggesting that ...." isn't a way of getting around "I think that...."

Sparks

UpTheJunction wrote: »

You have a remarkable way of thinking Sparks. Truly amazing. I don't believe I have ever seen anything like it.

What, level-headed thinking? You've never even seen that before? Surely not.

Be honest now. You are just having a laugh right? I mean this is joke piece to cause a bit of a stir. I mean you don't think there is much sense to almost anything you just posted above?

No, I'm not joking, I'm trying to be as reasonable as is practicable. Which is probably more effort than is really called for, but hey, I had a few minutes spare so why not.

You are aware that the ICU is not a political party or a government.

Indeed - no political party or government would ever be this badly organised.

It is just group of people trying to help run the national governing body of a very small marginal game/activity with a view to making the playing of chess as enjoyable and easy as possible for people throughout the land.

Indeed. You are aware that National Governing Bodies are not actually completely trivial in the context of sports or similar activities, yes? That they provide an important function to their members? That often they are charged not only with large sums of their members' money and other assets, but also act as liasons to the international pursuit of their game or sport, and select those who represent their country in those pursuits?
That isn't as important as being a paramedic or a parent or a firefighter, certainly; but it's also not utterly meaningless.

Heck, even if only purely because they're charged with spending members' monies responsibly...

"never ever off duty ever so long as he holds that office"
You really think this?

Yes. It's the rule I had to live by for years. And I got roundly slapped anytime I broke it inadvertently. As PRO, you are responsible for the sport's image in the media, for all the technical aspects of communication between the board and the members and between the NGB and the rest of the world, and you usually have to prepare all the content as well. It falls on you to put the best face of the sport forward at all times. You don't get time off. You don't get to say "oh, today I'm not me, I'm other-me and you can't link anything I say to the sport", not when it's the sport you're talking about and you're in public. The chair tends to have the same problem to a lesser extent and the other officers to an even smaller extent, but by and large it's the PRO who has to always dress smart and talk nice. It's a bloody exhausting thing to do right.

Which is why I have such a low opinion of people who don't take the job seriously and bring their sport or pursuit down in the eyes of the general public; not only are they doing their job badly, it affects everyone in the sport. If Joe Bloggs, random member of the sport says something stupid, it reflects ill on Joe Bloggs and not many other people. If Joe Bloggs, PRO says something stupid, he's saying something stupid on behalf of all the members of his group.

Also btw what can you explain has facebook got to do with any of this?

Sure - it's where the ICU PRO has been doing exactly what I've just described, at length, in public, on the world's largest and most-read website, where any parent searching for chess in Ireland is going to find it.

reunion

cdeb wrote: »

On the ICU site that the secretary has resigned.

I don't know where this leaves the post of secretary for 2015/16.

The post for secretary for 2015/16 is undecided yet (even prior to this resignation). It is also unclear if Eugene is running for secretary in the upcoming general election. Maybe the candidate in John's team can finally be permitted to throw his name into the ring?

cdeb wrote: »

But I think it's the fourth resignation from the exec in its current lifetime - Mark Orr as webmaster, Garry O'Grady as Women's Officer and now two secretaries.

This is unprecedented so far as I'm aware. And surely it reflects badly on the current committee if its members can't work within it?

The first secretary (Bryan) was part of Pat's team in the last election. He did the job for 6+ months so his circumstances could have changed, that's fine to step down. The replacement (Eugene) was selected by the executive and he lasted 40 days by my count. That reflects poorly on the current executive and shows a serious problem in it's current operating procedure.

ComDubh

I am very slow to criticise chess administrators for apparent laziness, incompetence etc. They are unpaid volunteers taking up roles that often no one else wants to do, and they have other much more important concerns in their lives.

Using their positions to bully and settle scores in another matter, and this is sadly what the current ICU exec has descended to. (Not everyone on the exec of course.)