Posters you do not agree with

spurious

Following a number of reported posts, PMs, online remarks etc., can I remind members that someone having an opposing or different view, or even a view you have never heard a teacher express before, is not trolling?

Even if they repeat it many times, it's still not trolling.

We can't make a rule that only posters who toe the party line or agree with the majority view can post. The forum charter covers what will result in infractions.

If a poster really annoys you, use the ignore feature.

linguist

And if I'm not totally in breach of all boards protocols in doing so here, may I just say that I'm aware that in the past I have either gone against the tide or maybe occasionally antagonised some with my views on the odd thing. No offence was ever meant and it's nice to belatedly have a space to clear the air.

rainbowtrout

1. I don't think anyone minds a poster having an opposing view. Personally I don't like it when I'm defending my side of the debate with my own personal experience and I'm called a liar in response. I'm not about to take any argument for the other side of the debate seriously when a poster's argument is based on calling me a liar and doesn't even teach in the sector.

Plenty of posters have been able to post their opposing view here ( I read a pro JC post here only last night) without resorting to the rubbish I describe above.


2. Troll Definition: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

A lot of what I see around here falls in line with the above definition.

3. If a number of posters are reporting posts and sending PMs then maybe they aren't happy with the way the forum is moderated and it's time to change that. A lot of regular posters have left because of the issues that you say aren't trolling. Clearly if people are leaving there is an issue.

4. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

aunt aggie

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Troll Definition: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

A lot of what I see around here falls in line with the above definition.

Have to disagree. The only post I ever reported in T&L basically offered advice on sexual relationships with students... I'm fairly certain the OP was originally asking about an interview question. That's trolling and that isn't something that happens often here.

What's happening on T&L at the minute isn't trolling. It's threads going around in circles because people with strong views keep repeating their opinions in the hope they will get everyone to agree with them. It is starting to make reading some threads tedious and it has put me off posting more than once.

If a lot of people think that is a problem, then rainbowtrout is right. Ignoring it won't change anything.

...Just my two cents...

acequion

rainbowtrout wrote: »

1. I don't think anyone minds a poster having an opposing view. Personally I don't like it when I'm defending my side of the debate with my own personal experience and I'm called a liar in response. I'm not about to take any argument for the other side of the debate seriously when a poster's argument is based on calling me a liar and doesn't even teach in the sector.

Plenty of posters have been able to post their opposing view here ( I read a pro JC post here only last night) without resorting to the rubbish I describe above.


2. Troll Definition: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

A lot of what I see around here falls in line with the above definition.

3. If a number of posters are reporting posts and sending PMs then maybe they aren't happy with the way the forum is moderated and it's time to change that. A lot of regular posters have left because of the issues that you say aren't trolling. Clearly if people are leaving there is an issue.

4. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

Just want to say that I am in complete agreement here. And I find it a shame that so many posters have left at a time when discussion is vital.

beveragelady

rainbowtrout wrote: »

1. I don't think anyone minds a poster having an opposing view. Personally I don't like it when I'm defending my side of the debate with my own personal experience and I'm called a liar in response. I'm not about to take any argument for the other side of the debate seriously when a poster's argument is based on calling me a liar and doesn't even teach in the sector.

Plenty of posters have been able to post their opposing view here ( I read a pro JC post here only last night) without resorting to the rubbish I describe above.


2. Troll Definition: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

A lot of what I see around here falls in line with the above definition.

3. If a number of posters are reporting posts and sending PMs then maybe they aren't happy with the way the forum is moderated and it's time to change that. A lot of regular posters have left because of the issues that you say aren't trolling. Clearly if people are leaving there is an issue.

4. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

Agree completely. Offering anecdotal evidence to explain a point of view can result in being told you are lying. I don't understand why this is tolerated.
I have used the ignore function to mute one frequent poster who uses this technique to undermine others' arguments, and I'm pretty sure others have too.

acequion

I wasn't sure if we were allowed mention the ignore function but I am using it for the first time ever. And as nothing else is being done and the problem is continuing it really is the only recourse. So I would urge other users to follow suit. By not getting involved we might save the threads from getting derailed.

solerina

I don't use the ignore function, I just scroll past the posts and don't read them anymore !!!!

man_no_plan

I think the main problem with this forum is that there's a relatively small pool of regular posters that you might not have in other fora.

I am a sporadic poster myself and do it in fits and bursts. I'm sure I can irritate people as much as anyone else but my opinion is my opinion and I have my mind made up before I post. I don't come on here for advice usually although I used to feel that the form was a good barometer of feeling generally it seems to have become very divided.

I used to be a regular poster but deleted my account following a period a good while ago where there was constant petty arguing on here, ot was around the time of cp2 when things got heavy.

Personally I have received abusive private messages regarding opinions I have posted on thread.

I think some of the problem is that we are reluctant to take on board other peoples experiences in their schools as has been referred to earlier. Posters often state as system wide act's fact things that do or don't happen in their schools.

Discussion boards should allow discussion. How many times can you make the same point though repeatedly? Should there be a maximum of twice to re post the same point?

I happen to agree with a poster on another forum who keeps posting the same stuff over and over, I don't agree with the method. I equally don't agree with the forward and back and gang mentality.

Obviously people hold strong opinions and are forceful in articulating them, their time might be better spent doing so in their respective staffrooms.

I think the ferocity of the debates don't entice new posters in.

acequion

Strong opinions and ferocious debates were never more necessary in such a stiflingly apathetic,fatalistic environment. Zero sympathy for the faint hearted. Let's not be afraid to get our feet wet!!

However,sending abusive private messages is way out of order.

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

I think the main problem with this forum is that there's a relatively small pool of regular posters that you might not have in other fora.

I am a sporadic poster myself and do it in fits and bursts. I'm sure I can irritate people as much as anyone else but my opinion is my opinion and I have my mind made up before I post. I don't come on here for advice usually although I used to feel that the form was a good barometer of feeling generally it seems to have become very divided.

I used to be a regular poster but deleted my account following a period a good while ago where there was constant petty arguing on here, ot was around the time of cp2 when things got heavy.

Personally I have received abusive private messages regarding opinions I have posted on thread.

I think some of the problem is that we are reluctant to take on board other peoples experiences in their schools as has been referred to earlier. Posters often state as system wide act's fact things that do or don't happen in their schools.

Discussion boards should allow discussion. How many times can you make the same point though repeatedly? Should there be a maximum of twice to re post the same point?

I happen to agree with a poster on another forum who keeps posting the same stuff over and over, I don't agree with the method. I equally don't agree with the forward and back and gang mentality.

Obviously people hold strong opinions and are forceful in articulating them, their time might be better spent doing so in their respective staffrooms.

I think the ferocity of the debates don't entice new posters in.

My position is probably painfully obvious (sorrry!). It's up to people to just ignore and pick up the ball and run elsewhere. Anyone here for a few years knows there's been other situations we've let run to the annoyance of others (and yes it does discourage people from entering etc), with warnings and infractions dished out to those who get caught up in the melee also. So apologies, but I think there's a difference between poor debating skills and trolling. Maybe I need to review all the reported posts and the threads / posts to build another picture, but my instinct is telling me to let some things run and let people moderate themselves (on certain occasions). I admit the ignore function isn't a 100% solution but it's the best Ihave to offer. Maybe another mod might do it differently but from speaking to other mods about it (in different fora aswel) it's a general agreement with my own stance, so I know I'm not alone.

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So apologies, but I think there's a difference between poor debating skills and trolling.

And what is the mod stance on posters being called liars when they offer their side of the debate? Being called a liar is not a valid response in a debate.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So apologies, but I think there's a difference between poor debating skills and trolling. Maybe I need to review all the reported posts and the threads / posts to build another picture, but my instinct is telling me to let some things run and let people moderate themselves (on certain occasions).

Then what exactly is the point of the mods of T&L?

r93kaey5p2izun

I think in many cases there's a very fine line between trolling and soapboxing. I'm not really sure which this problem is. But whatever it is, the hogging of every thread is exasperating and I really feel it's detrimental to general discussion and debate, which is a great pity considering the times we're in. I don't see the point in the ignore function really, just find myself unsubscribing from threads as it's futile to get involved and tedious to read.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And what is the mod stance on posters being called liars when they offer their side of the debate? Being called a liar is not a valid response in a debate.

Ok just PM the post again and I'll take a look.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Then what exactly is the point of the mods of T&L?

i think a bit of self governance is desirable. This is what I mean by letting some things run and in the hope that people moderate their own actions.... and by that I also mean: not making personal comments against a poster, not declaring that you are going to use 'ignore' on-thread, not constantly declaring that the forum has gone to the dogs recently when things get heated, not getting drawn into 'he-said/she said... are you calling me a liar'.

Sure there's people beating the same drum... and that's tiring, but don't forget that's on both sides of the debate. We all have our drums to beat whether we admit it or not (I have a drum!).

What teacher doesn't like to use deductive reasoning? Going from a general circular/gvt statement/policy to how it might affect us, this is just logical reasoned debate. But we also use Inductive here too ... going from the particular (our own experiences) to the general: "in my case it's X therefore everybody must be doing X". And yes: in the Charter it does caution against sweeping general statements, but I think any mod would be run off their feet dealing with every generalisation going, inductive reaoning is what makes us human too. If it's pointed out to be incorrect then it should be taken on board when evidence to the contrary is produced, if it's not and the same 'position' is advanced repeatedly is this just someone who is poor at debate/ or flaming. The line is very thin so I would tend to let people who read the thread judge for themselves, the record is there to show, so just engage with someone else who'll discuss the topic. But that's just my style, mods don't have time to 'chair' a debate as it happens, so if i do come across a train wreck i have to ask 'Is it worth the hassle of dishing out warnings, dealing with retribution about being given a megre warning through table tennis PM's where folk wont take it in the spirit it was meant and move on (Ive taken enough warnings myself too in other fora!)' OR do I just let it run and hopefully people will get the hint about measuring (moderating) their own responses after a while? I tend to let it run and live in hope. (I'd rather be hope-less though).


Unwarranted Abusive PM's should be reported and are definitely not tolerated anywhere on Boards man_no_plan.

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

i think a bit of self governance is desirable. This is what I mean by letting some things run and in the hope that people moderate their own actions.... and by that I also mean: not making personal comments against a poster, not declaring that you are going to use 'ignore' on-thread, not constantly declaring that the forum has gone to the dogs recently when things get heated, not getting drawn into 'he-said/she said... are you calling me a liar'.

Clearly that doesn't work. Most of the popular threads on here in the last while have been a train wreck. People do not moderate their actions. That is why there are moderators. They will push things as far as they can until they are reined in.

That lack of moderation is also why there is a proliferation of the posts you list above.

And again, posters that post here regularly, and play by the rules are completely castigated because they post the above out of frustration, because some posters seem to be able to do what they like, and for all intents and purposes are untouchable.

Can you really not see how frustrating it is for a poster who just wants to engage in a bit of discussion to be told tone it down when they decide to post 'I'm going to use the ignore function from now on' when nothing has been done about the previous 10 posts that have caused them to post that?

Gebgbegb wrote: »

But that's just my style, mods don't have time to 'chair' a debate as it happens, so if i do come across a train wreck i have to ask 'Is it worth the hassle of dishing out warnings, dealing with retribution about being given a megre warning through table tennis PM's where folk wont take it in the spirit it was meant and move on (Ive taken enough warnings myself too in other fora!)' OR do I just let it run and hopefully people will get the hint about measuring (moderating) their own responses after a while? I tend to let it run and live in hope. (I'd rather be hope-less though).

Again, isn't that the point of the moderators. Granted you are not online 24/7 to see everything, but isn't the point when you are on here and there is a problem that you are in the position to solve that issue, be it with warnings/infractions/bans etc? Saying 'Is it worth the hassle?' What's the point of being a mod if it isn't worth the hassle?

Again, threads have been turning into train wrecks and people do not moderate their behaviour if they don't want to.

If you have a complete head the ball in your classroom, do you reprimand their behaviour so you can get on with your class, or do you let them cause your class to become a train wreck in the hope that they will start to moderate their own behaviour??



Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

man_no_plan

How do you report a pm?

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Clearly that doesn't work. Most of the popular threads on here in the last while have been a train wreck. People do not moderate their actions. That is why there are moderators. They will push things as far as they can until they are reined in.

That lack of moderation is also why there is a proliferation of the posts you list above.

And again, posters that post here regularly, and play by the rules are completely castigated because they post the above out of frustration, because some posters seem to be able to do what they like, and for all intents and purposes are untouchable.

Can you really not see how frustrating it is for a poster who just wants to engage in a bit of discussion to be told tone it down when they decide to post 'I'm going to use the ignore function from now on' when nothing has been done about the previous 10 posts that have caused them to post that?



Again, isn't that the point of the moderators. Granted you are not online 24/7 to see everything, but isn't the point when you are on here and there is a problem that you are in the position to solve that issue, be it with warnings/infractions/bans etc? Saying 'Is it worth the hassle?' What's the point of being a mod if it isn't worth the hassle?

Again, threads have been turning into train wrecks and people do not moderate their behaviour if they don't want to.

If you have a complete head the ball in your classroom, do you reprimand their behaviour so you can get on with your class, or do you let them cause your class to become a train wreck in the hope that they will start to moderate their own behaviour??



Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

But this isn't the classroom. I expect adults to know when to disengage. If it ends in a ****storm of 'he said she said thats not what I said' then that's that. I'm not going to go back and sanitise the thread, dish out multiple warnings...and then have to deal with folk by PM claiming that the censorship on this forum is akin to North Korea to the other end of the spectrum where folk say 'he called me a liar by not acknowledging my point and you're doing nothing'.

But by all means PLEASE follow the procedure and contact another mod or c-mod if you're not satisfied. I know there have been quite a few reported posts so you can mention those... also maybe to strengthen your case you should give a few examples of train-wrecks here's one I came across a few days ago and stayed the hell away from.

So go with that maybe, and the c-mod can counsel me for not sorting out that cluster****...
Was that example the fault of just one poster?
Was that example the fault of the mods?
Or Just both?
What would you have done if you came upon that wreck?

With the tirade of abuse I put up with in last years CP1/2/3/HR1/2/Union threads I've often thought about walking away and clicking the 'close account' button no probs. But I took it to the Nth degree there with DRP/appeals/reviewing threads/endless PM's and consulting c-mods and other mods in other fora to see if I was doing anything wrong. So after all that I don't think folk were happy anyway.

So yes I think it would be insanity doing the same thing over and over again with the wheel coming around again and yet again the same 'people are leaving/this forum is gone to the dogs' cries. This is not a realtime class, I'm not charing a live debate, if I leave the forum for a day the last thing I expect to come back to is a train wreck (Literally).

man_no_plan

I don't envy the mods here or anywhere for that matter.

Whatever about train wreck threads, some posters can vary their hostility across threads. They don't seem to be able to disagree on one thread and agree on another, its like they mark each other as being on another side and that's that.

Fir example there are a few principals and dp on here that post far lees frequently than they used to because they are quite frankly being abused.

Posters might not say directly that the other person is x, y or z but general management bashing and comments like overpaid underworked etc. discourage contributions that are very valuable.

As rainbowtrout says being called a liar is a big one. I know how I run my s&s and our croke park hours. If someone asks a question I should be allowed to answer without being told that that never happens etc. It might not happen often but its the way I know it works in my school.

Instead, then, of having a broad view of issues you only get the hardliners

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

But this isn't the classroom. I expect adults to know when to disengage.

If that was true of all forums and all adults there would be no need for moderators.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'm not going to go back and sanitise the thread, dish out multiple warnings...and then have to deal with folk by PM claiming that the censorship on this forum is akin to North Korea to the other end of the spectrum where folk say 'he called me a liar by not acknowledging my point and you're doing nothing'.

You could always just ignore them.

Dishing out multiple warnings early on probably would prevent a lot of train wrecks in the long run.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So go with that maybe, and the c-mod can counsel me for not sorting out that cluster****...
Was that example the fault of just one poster?
Was that example the fault of the mods?
Or Just both?
What would you have done if you came upon that wreck?

Surely whose fault it is, is not particularly relevant at this stage? Whether it's one poster or 10 posters. Infract/warn/ban whoever is at fault.

This is not meant to be a personal attack on you, but you're the only mod responding at the moment. I was amazed to learn a few minutes ago that there are actually 4 moderators for this forum. FOUR!!!!!!

I haven't seen one of them posting here in months and the other I have never seen posting at all. Pretty sure I've seen them posting in the LC forum in the past, so probably not a teacher, and never ventures in here.


Anyway, I've made my point. I won't be posting in T&L any more. You'll have one less person nagging you.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If that was true of all forums and all adults there would be no need for moderators.





You could always just ignore them.

Dishing out multiple warnings early on probably would prevent a lot of train wrecks in the long run.







Surely whose fault it is, is not particularly relevant at this stage? Whether it's one poster or 10 posters. Infract/warn/ban whoever is at fault.

This is not meant to be a personal attack on you, but you're the only mod responding at the moment. I was amazed to learn a few minutes ago that there are actually 4 moderators for this forum. FOUR!!!!!!

I haven't seen one of them posting here in months and the other I have never seen posting at all. Pretty sure I've seen them posting in the LC forum in the past, so probably not a teacher, and never ventures in here.


Anyway, I've made my point. I won't be posting in T&L any more. You'll have one less person nagging you.

OK fair enough Rainbowtrout, I can appreciate where you're coming from and I've outlined my position (as just one mod), maybe I'm wrong so I'm open to the idea of another MOD adopting a different approach and seeing how it works out.

seavill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Clearly that doesn't work. Most of the popular threads on here in the last while have been a train wreck. People do not moderate their actions. That is why there are moderators. They will push things as far as they can until they are reined in.

That lack of moderation is also why there is a proliferation of the posts you list above.

And again, posters that post here regularly, and play by the rules are completely castigated because they post the above out of frustration, because some posters seem to be able to do what they like, and for all intents and purposes are untouchable.

Can you really not see how frustrating it is for a poster who just wants to engage in a bit of discussion to be told tone it down when they decide to post 'I'm going to use the ignore function from now on' when nothing has been done about the previous 10 posts that have caused them to post that?



Again, isn't that the point of the moderators. Granted you are not online 24/7 to see everything, but isn't the point when you are on here and there is a problem that you are in the position to solve that issue, be it with warnings/infractions/bans etc? Saying 'Is it worth the hassle?' What's the point of being a mod if it isn't worth the hassle?

Again, threads have been turning into train wrecks and people do not moderate their behaviour if they don't want to.

If you have a complete head the ball in your classroom, do you reprimand their behaviour so you can get on with your class, or do you let them cause your class to become a train wreck in the hope that they will start to moderate their own behaviour??



Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I'm sorry mods but I would have to agree with rainbowtrout completely.

As they said if people could mod themselves there would be no mods in the first place.
It's certainly not a job many people round want or do but if you (and I mean you in the general sense not you personally) don't like doing it then why are you a mod.
I would agree if things are reigned in early on things won't get out of hand as quickly.

I think the reason there has been so many threads go mental lately is the fact that there has been absolutely no moderating going on at all (none that is obvious anyway). Hence the strength of opinion currently.

I will be the first to admit I have received warnings over the last few years a few times. I might send a pm to discuss (as is the procedure) and eventually it dies down but generally the issue on thread is resolved through the mod interaction.

Edit to say cross over of posts you have answered my points in post above

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

How do you report a pm?

Just PM a mod with a quote or two... we can't access PM's but it'll be up to the alleged offender to respond to the claim.

r93kaey5p2izun

man_no_plan wrote: »

How do you report a pm?

There's a report icon (exclamation mark in a triangle) beside the title of the message when you click in to read it.

RealJohn

I'm trying to tread carefully here because I'm aware that open criticism of mods or moderation is against the rules of boards.ie but broadly speaking, I agree with rainbowtrout and seavill.
Firstly, while the moderators are volunteers, by volunteering they are accepting a certain amount of responsibility to be there to moderate. I'm a competition organiser for one of the schools' sports, also voluntarily. I don't think it's acceptable for me to just ignore other schools until it suits me to organise that competition. I have to make time. Similarly, moderators really should be making sure that they're at least keeping an eye on threads on a regular basis, especially ones on potentially contentious issues in which tempers are likely to fray. For example, the mods probably don't have to pay much attention here to a thread along the lines of "How would you teach topic x?" or other topics that are either purely on actual teaching or otherwise fairly light-hearted. Topics like "Why you should vote no to the whatever-lies-FG-are-spinning-this-year agreement" on the other hand are more likely to get people's backs up and probably need more attention from moderators.

On the other hand, while I agree with rainbowtrout and seavill that you really can't expect this or any other board to self-moderate, the mods have a tricky line to walk between allowing reasonable discussion and over-moderation. rainbowtrout and seavill seem to think that some posters get too much leeway in terms of repeating the same points over and over (and I'm pretty sure I've been guilty of that myself from time to time) but I have found that in some cases, the mods have been far too heavy handed, both in terms of applying the letter of the law too strictly and in terms of locking threads because they felt that the thread had run its course, without there having been any bad behaviour in the thread (something I personally believe should never happen - if a thread's run its course it should be allowed to fall naturally down the list. Locking should only be used to prevent a thread which is becoming or has become a problem from escalating any further).

I appreciate that moderation is a difficult and voluntary job but like any other voluntary job, it still has its responsibilities. Personally, given that I assume boards.ie makes pretty good money from those ads that irritate the hell out of me, I don't think it would be unreasonable for the mods to receive some sort of compensation for their time in helping the boards run properly but that's none of my business. Regardless, whether for reward or not, if you accept a job (voluntary or otherwise) you have to do it and while I agree that a certain amount of self-moderation is desirable, it simply isn't realistic for that to go beyond being responsible enough to report problems and let the mods deal with it or maybe, occasionally send another poster a pm politely suggesting that they might be going a little overboard.

D4RK ONION

I think it's worth pointing out that there are only 2 mods on this forum, one of whom is busy with a big real life event these last few weeks, so it's really been down to one mod. Myself and Spurious are Education CMods and thus are not tasked with policing each forum independently. However, until more active mods are added to the team here in T&L, I'll be casting my own eye over it for now.

Meta threads like these are good for a forum, but if you have issues with specific instances or moderating, open a thread in the Dispute Resolution Forum.

mirrorwall14

I've been very cautious of posting here. I will simply say this: No matter what way a forum is modded you will never please everybody. Either it will be considered to heavy handed or too light. I wouldn't want to be a mod myself, I do enough "modding" of my classrooms to be dancing that fine line in my spare time too.

I have every respect for the work that is put in by moderators and having thought about it a lot since this thread was started will simply say that I think this forums change over the past few years (I've been a member for a long long time now) is actually reflective of the changes in teaching itself. Teachers and staffrooms are more demoralised, angry and frustrated than they have been in quite a while. Our staffroom atmosphere in relation to government, educational policy and the Teaching council etc has become very resentful. They have reached the "end of their tether" so to speak in relation to constantly defending their terms and conditions, being belittled by their education minister, having top down policy implemented on top of the changes in the awarding of contracts (the hours culture) and are just pretty irritable.

I feel its just spilling over into the forum