Hundreds killed in Hajj pilgrimage stampede

Tom Dunne

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0924/729937-haj-mecca/

Terrible, terrible tragedy.

A number of my work colleagues/friends are there, I hope they are OK.

sangsung

I am not a muslim and am confused by some of the comments I have been seeing around news sites. And I have a stupid question.

Lots of people say that the dead are now in paradise, it is Allah's choice, as if it is a good thing that happened.

Other people are worried about their family/friends.

If it is Allah's choice, and they are now in paradise as Allah wished, why are people worried and sad about family members?

bilston

sangsung wrote: »

I am not a muslim and am confused by some of the comments I have been seeing around news sites. And I have a stupid question.

Lots of people say that the dead are now in paradise, it is Allah's choice, as if it is a good thing that happened.

Other people are worried about their family/friends.

If it is Allah's choice, and they are now in paradise as Allah wished, why are people worried and sad about family members?

I don't think you need to be a Muslim to know why people are worried about family members

sangsung

But the dead are in a better place and it is what Allah wanted.

Stheno

Tragic event, hard to believe it's happened again

Frank Grimes

Despite (unfortunately) the fact that it takes a lot to shock me anymore I was genuinely shocked when I saw those numbers earlier, it's a terrible tragedy.

I was reading this Foreign Policy article yesterday about the destruction of historical parts of Mecca for the purpose of commercial development and this part came back to me as I was reading today's news:

Foreign Policy wrote:

Despite these multibillion-dollar efforts, essential services in Mecca remain dangerously inadequate. The Ajyad Emergency Hospital adjacent to the Grand Mosque has only 52 beds. The slightly larger Al Noor Hospital is four miles away. Neither has a dedicated blood bank. Similarly, according to the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation’s Alawi, during a recent fire at a construction site, Mecca’s fire department had to call for assistance from the city of Taif, over an hour away, when its engines couldn’t handle the blaze. With 2.5 million people descending on the holy city, these facilities are shockingly insufficient.

Armchair Andy

One way I wouldn't like to go. Imagine being crushed to death. Terrible tragedy

Tom Dunne

sangsung wrote: »

And I have a stupid question.

I think you have captured the essence of your post there.

Mod note: do not post in this thread again. Show some human decency and respect.

smurfjed

Regardless of the changes that the Saudis have made to the Holy Mosque and the additional platforms allowing people to stone the devil from more areas, the fact remains that 2.5 million people are all trying to do the same thing at the same time, young, old, disabled, speaking a multitude of languages, it only takes some to start falling and the sea of bodies will just keep walking over them.

If only people would accept that the stoning could be done anytime in that 24 hour period rather than trying to have it completed before Dhuhr prayer.

seanaway

Stheno wrote: »

Tragic event, hard to believe it's happened again

Eh??? Why is it hard to belive it has happened again????

Every couple of years at least this happens.

Now, this is either Saudi Arabians not giving a **** about 'fellow' Muslims (we won't go into the whole Syrian refugee thing here)

..or Saudis believing in the old 'Inshallah' thing....

Or Muslims just not learning that safety is not an 'Inshallah' thing....

Or maybe it's Muslims believing that because they are going to Mecca they are somehow under the protection of allah and all those who guard Mecca on his behalf...

Or maybe it is just yet another example of a cluster**** by people who care nothing about the real world they live in and are either too stupid or too lazy to get off their backsides and do a REAL job of work taking care of safety because they can alsways fall back on the old ' ah it's the will of allah that I collect my money and do **** all for it ...who am I to go against this will?'

Oh, and let's not forget the old Saudi royals who make BILLIONS on the back of idiots like this....

Ah well...Masallah...Inshallah...etcallah...

seanaway

smurfjed wrote: »

If only people would accept that the stoning could be done anytime in that 24 hour period rather than trying to have it completed before Dhuhr prayer.

If only people could accept that they could stay at home and throw a few stones at the TV it would be even better....

Tom Dunne

I think what people don't realise is that despite all their obscene wealth, Gulf Countries are still essentially third world countries. Yes, they have massive skyscrapers and cities built only in the last 20 years, but basic standards and regulations that we would take for granted in the west are simply not in place in the region.

So when you have a combination of religious fervor and poor crowd safety standards, it has a tragic outcome.

smurfjed

Just to put the magnitude of the Hajj movement into perspective. You can see how the "stoning area" is now a multi level area to allow more people conduct the ritual at the same time.

Is there anything other event in the world that deals with this number of people in such a small place?

seanaway

No there isn't ...and now maybe you know why...

The indifferent and incompetent leading the sheep through the badly designed pens....

How many times must this happen before someone realises that this is inevitible when you have the 'Inshallah' /'Mashallah' mentality...

Moron + moron = moron

Iran wants an investigation? Why? Does it care about the deaths? Of course not....it's Islamic religious politics at its finest. Hypocrits the lot of them.

Tom Dunne

seanaway wrote: »

No there isn't ...and now maybe you know why...

The indifferent and incompetent leading the sheep through the badly designed pens....

How many times must this happen before someone realises that this is inevitible when you have the 'Inshallah' /'Mashallah' mentality...

To others that might not be familiar with this, generally speaking if something happens, rather than taking blame, there is a tendency to say it is God's will. I was actually told by one of our ICT "engineers" that if a server goes down, it is God's will. Not incompetence on his part, all part of the plan of the Big Man.

What this does is essentially absolve anyone from blame. It's quite an infuriating trait that is common in the region.

seanaway wrote: »

Moron + moron = moron

No need for that.

seanaway wrote: »

Iran wants an investigation? Why? Does it care about the deaths? Of course not....it's Islamic religious politics at its finest. Hypocrits the lot of them.

Yes, it does appear that Iran is politicising the situation to have a go at Saudi, with threats to take the latter to international court. Hollow words that are disingenuous to the dead.

seanaway

Tom Dunne wrote: »

No need for that.

Sorry if it offends some - but 'Yes there is a need for that'

Unless that is moron+moron=2 morons is what you meant - in which case I agree my maths was way off.

You are clearly well informed about the area and the culture and I respect your views.

However, for those without your insight I think it is important to do the basic maths. I do not mean this in an insulting way to those without your insight but it is, as I am sure you know, not a black and white culture and so possibly needs to be put into straight terms.

Happens too often...not even mentioned the deaths caused by the fall of the crane at mecca before this happened.

Tom Dunne

seanaway wrote: »

Sorry if it offends some - but 'Yes there is a need for that'

Unless that is moron+moron=2 morons is what you meant - in which case I agree my maths was way off.

It is possible to have a civil debate without referring to anyone as morons. Please refrain from doing that in future.

seanaway wrote: »

SHowever, for those without your insight I think it is important to do the basic maths. I do not mean this in an insulting way to those without your insight but it is, as I am sure you know, not a black and white culture and so possibly needs to be put into straight terms.

Happens too often...not even mentioned the deaths caused by the fall of the crane at mecca before this happened.

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from in terms of the 'basic maths'. Can you elaborate?

seanaway

Tom Dunne wrote: »

It is possible to have a civil debate without referring to anyone as morons. Please refrain from doing that in future.

A civil debate can indeed be had without calling people morons.

However, I will agree to disagree with you here as I believe there are some who are simply morons.....

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from in terms of the 'basic maths'. Can you elaborate?

2+2=4??

I made the mistake of suggesting 1 moron plus 1 moron equalled 1 moron...simples as a higher life says in the ads