Question for PM users

Leroy42

Do you regularly do 20 minute FTP tests and adjust that number in whatever software program you use?

Or is it that you tend to leave it over the off season?

I see that Training Peaks alerts you when you achieve higher, but not lower numbers. I assume that during the winter the FTP would drop so should I be adjusting for this in the software as it affects TSS and IF? or is it not really that important

I know the technical aspects for it, just wondering what people actually do rather than the theory.

fat bloke

I tend to do 2 a year. One around now and one kinda Spring time. But I actually haven't done one since this time last year. I'm well overdue.

manwithaplan

A lactate test at the start of winter training is good if you can stretch to that (you really only need your threshold number from this to get your zones sorted- no need to go to max). Maybe another one pre season and about 3 20 minute FTP tests during the season just to see where you are and adjust if necessary. I wouldn't overdo them - you don't want to be going very deep very often outside of races.

Leroy42

Thanks for the replies. As usual, I'm a bit confused.

My understanding was that the FTP test was a 20 minute effort, which ties in with what manwithaplan says above.

But I hear/read lots of people talking about 2x20 minutes on the turbo over the winter etc. Is this not the same or are these meant to be taken at below the FTP and thus not a test as such?

morana

I used to do an all out test once a month except in the winter but would do a test before I started back. As regards the turbo I used to start with 2x10 and build up but would only do a max of 2x20 but they wouldnt be at 100%ftp

Tried a few times to get to my max before the season started but it left me mentaliy drained, I didnt think it could happen either but it did!

Beasty

Haven't done anything approaching a proper "test" for over 2 years. Even then it was typically based on 10m TT figures. I reset my FTP based on all the data I have (be it Wattbike or road bike) earlier this year (even a "proper" 20 minute test was going to be too much for me at that stage of my recovery). I will probably do something similar later on this year. However the various thresholds will not change much and I find it much more straightforward looking at absolute figures rather than re-setting things too often.

For this year I've not had to worry too much about FTP - I've only done a handful of longer races (and been dropped in pretty much every one) but mostly I've been doing track where I am typically not going to be racing for more than 10 mins at a time. I guess though that my approach this year has been very much driven by circumstances and is certainly not one I would generally recommend.

manwithaplan

The 20 minute FTP test is an all out test that you can use to estimate your FTP (the average power you can manage over 60 minutes). There are a few possible protocols for doing this - look them up online. A lactate test is a test where you progressively increase power on a stationary trainer with someone pricking your finger to take a lactate reading every few minutes. This will give you your lactate threshold power and is an accurate way of settling your zones.

The 2x20 minute thing in the winter is just interval training. It's generally done in the 'sweet spot' - 90-95% of your FTP.

Edit - Reading your post again, just also to clarify that the 20 minute FTP test is not done at FTP but above it. It basically allows you to estimate FTP without doing a full 60 minute test (which would be done at FTP). You'll be knocking a bit off what you can average for 20 minutes to determine FTP.

Leroy42

Cheers, clears it all up nicely.

you know, despite what people say about you guys, you're all right:D

okane1

I would imagine you need to do a FTP test at least once every 6wks.
The reason been, if you are creating your training zones based on a % of your FTP, as you train and become better your FTP and various zones will move. If you are not retesting on a regular manner you will be in danger of not training in your correct zone (either too high or too low of an effort), thus wasting the sessions.

The 20min FTP is an all out effort but should be controlled, i.e. don't sprint out of the blocks and die within 10mins. Also don't look at your watts/hr during the test as you could be aiming for a number when in fact you might be stronger, thus giving you an incorrect number.

Beasty

okane1 wrote: »

I would imagine you need to do a FTP test at least once every 6wks.

Careful now - you're talking like a triathlete:P

In theory, yes there's no harm in doing regular tests. In practice I know from the data I compile from all my efforts pretty much where I am and can adjust accordingly

okane1

Beasty wrote: »

Careful now - you're talking like a triathlete:P

Not one of them!!

It also depends if you can fit it into your training program. Certainly twice a year for someone who is racing and training a lot isn't enough.

sconhome

Beasty wrote: »

Careful now - you're talking like a triathlete:P

Nah, would need to be talking in w/kg for that

tunney

Beasty wrote: »

Careful now - you're talking like a triathlete:P

In theory, yes there's no harm in doing regular tests. In practice I know from the data I compile from all my efforts pretty much where I am and can adjust accordingly

I assume by that you mean someone who understands how to use a power meter?

tunney

Leroy42 wrote: »

Do you regularly do 20 minute FTP tests and adjust that number in whatever software program you use?

Or is it that you tend to leave it over the off season?

I see that Training Peaks alerts you when you achieve higher, but not lower numbers. I assume that during the winter the FTP would drop so should I be adjusting for this in the software as it affects TSS and IF? or is it not really that important

I know the technical aspects for it, just wondering what people actually do rather than the theory.

do a 5 minute all out TT and then a 20 minute all out TT

0.9-0.92 of the 20 minute average power is an approximation of your FTP.

if you don't do the 5 minute TT or if its less than 15% higher than the 20 minute and you haven't done an accurate test.

When RPE, HR and PWR start to get out of sync for a certain percentage of FTP retest (ie 90% starts to feel like 80% and your HR drops too)

Taxuser1

tunney wrote: »

do a 5 minute all out TT and then a 20 minute all out TT

0.9-0.92 of the 20 minute average power is an approximation of your FTP.

if you don't do the 5 minute TT or if its less than 15% higher than the 20 minute and you haven't done an accurate test.

When RPE, HR and PWR start to get out of sync for a certain percentage of FTP retest (ie 90% starts to feel like 80% and your HR drops too)

what kind of break do you get between the 2 tests ?

tunney

Taxuser1 wrote: »

what kind of break do you get between the 2 tests ?

10 minutes easy spinning.

Beasty

tunney wrote: »

I assume by that you mean someone who understands how to use a power meter?

That's exactly what I mean

But TBH, FTP has more of a relevance to triathlons (and indeed TTs) where there is more to be gained from a "steady state" performance. Road racing is more about peaks and troughs with recovering for the next effort being important (as is the ability to climb effectively). I guess that's why they developed the NP concept which is much more of a focus for me (this year anyway, as I've already mentioned I've not done any TTs for a couple of years now)

I think though that triathletes and "pure" road cyclists can and do use power data differently.

tunney

Beasty wrote: »

That's exactly what I mean

But TBH, FTP has more of a relevance to triathlons (and indeed TTs) where there is more to be gained from a "steady state" performance. Road racing is more about peaks and troughs with recovering for the next effort being important (as is the ability to climb effectively). I guess that's why they developed the NP concept which is much more of a focus for me (this year anyway, as I've already mentioned I've not done any TTs for a couple of years now)

I think though that triathletes and "pure" road cyclists can and do use power data differently.

I do get the stochastic nature of bike racing but that doesn't really make too much difference to the relevance of FTP on training. If not for guiding training zones then as part of your fatigue profile.

My point on AP for FTP estimation is that if you use NP you can get an artificially high number.

I also don't but much store in NP for any use. its just an arbitrary formula, it has no real basis in science. but it does sell sh1t.

Zyzz

Can your FTP be calculated from Vo2 Max testing? Or will I need to do the FTP test as well? (I plan on getting Vo2 tested anyways)

Beasty

tunney wrote: »

My point on AP for FTP estimation is that if you use NP you can get an artificially high number.

You may get an artificially high number, you may get an artificially low number. The same applies to doing a 20 minute test, albeit that will almost certainly improve the accuracy

This year I personally don't care too much what my FTP is. My main objective involves less than 3 minutes of cycling twice during the next 2 weeks....

sconhome

Zyzz wrote: »

Can your FTP be calculated from Vo2 Max testing? Or will I need to do the FTP test as well? (I plan on getting Vo2 tested anyways)

If being tested on a watt bike for blood lactate you should be able to find your FTP, that is what it is anyway. VO2 tests without the blood testing should give you a figure that will be close enough for training with.

lennymc

tunney wrote: »

I assume by that you mean someone who understands how to use a power meter?

or trainerroad

Raam

tunney wrote: »

if you don't do the 5 minute TT or if its less than 15% higher than the 20 minute and you haven't done an accurate test.

Meaning that you haven't exhausted the anaerobic system enough in the 5 min effort?