Religious or spiritual beliefs in national suicide prevention policy

panda100

I was reading through 'Connecting for Life', Ireland's national suicide prevention strategy, this morning for work-related reasons. It's not a very long document so I was struck by the inclusion of the following paragraph:

Religious or spiritual beliefs

Faith itself may be a protective factor since it typically provides a structured
belief system and can advocate for behaviour that can be considered
physically and mentally beneficial (53). Many religious and cultural beliefs and
behaviours may also contribute towards stigma related to suicide due to their
moral stances on suicide, which can discourage help-seeking behaviours. The
protective value of religion and spirituality may occur from providing access to
a socially cohesive and supportive community with a shared set of values. Many
religious groups also prohibit suicide risk factors such as alcohol use. While
religion and spiritual beliefs may offer some protection against suicide, this
depends on specific cultural and contextual practices and interpretations.

It appears to me to paint religion as a protective factor against suicide which I think is slightly misleading. From all my years working in the health sector the evidence appears to suggest that 'spiritual' people are at greater risk of developing psychiatric illnesses. So one could easily argue that religion is a risk factor rather than protective. It also does not sufficiently highlight the distress that religious beliefs may cause an individual, for example stigma of being gay etc.

I just thought what others views of this was?

Link to strategy: https://www.healthpromotion.ie/hp-files/docs/HME00945.pdf

The Black Oil

iirc, religion is generally viewed as a protective factor due to the community networks/contacts people develop from it. I take it as being less about the doctrine of the faith and more that it's positive as it doesn't leave people socially isolated (assuming regular ish mass, I suppose) and susceptible to other risk factors.

looksee

The utilization of excessively convoluted English would potentially inhibit comprehension.

panda100

looksee wrote: »

The utilization of excessively convoluted English would potentially inhibit comprehension.

Well it wouldn't be a HSE policy document if it wasn't incredibly inaccessible to all

lazygal

Are there any figures kept on the religious background of those who attempted suicide or who died by suicide in Ireland?

gctest50

panda100 wrote: »

Well it wouldn't be a HSE policy document if it wasn't incredibly inaccessible to all

I
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where
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doctors
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illegibly
perplexing
handwriting
nevertheless
extraordinary
pharmaceutical
intellectuality
counterbalancing
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transcendentalizes
intercommunications'
incomprehensibleness.

.

panda100 wrote: »

........... From all my years working in the health sector the evidence appears to suggest that 'spiritual' people are at greater risk of developing psychiatric illnesses.......

That "very religious" carry on seems to be a great hidey-hole for a few that are well on the way to a serious psychiatric illness

Truely believing that a bit of discomfort ( kneeling down for a bit ) and repeating the same thing over and over again will help something happen is at best a bit odd
-then believing if all that fails it was "someones will" is just daft



.

panda100

lazygal wrote: »

Are there any figures kept on the religious background of those who attempted suicide or who died by suicide in Ireland?

No. One of the actions called for in the strategy is more robust statistics on those whom die by suicide.

Internationally, some studies that have shown an increase in suicide in those whom have no religious affiliation. However, I don't think those studies are strong enough or relevant enough to guide Irish national policy.

I just came across this quote from the founder of the Irish Suicidology Association and my local TD, Dan Neville, at the launch of this strategy:

“In the past, Ireland had much lower suicide rates. This coincided with the time when most people were regular church goers.

“At the core of this strategy is the idea of connecting with other people, talking to people to see how they are. Whether it be through sport or through the Church, these are simple but extremely important ways of connecting.

link: http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2015/new-suicide-prevention-st/

I get the idea of building communities but I don't think you need religion to do that. I think the strategy focuses on the very few positives of religion for peoples mental health while disregarding or ignoring the many negatives.

The Black Oil

Neville's retiring at the next GE, so I wonder if he'll continue to beat the drum. I expect so if he's still involved in IAS. Important not to be rose-tinted about the church's role, imo.

I think the logic is the parish takes care of itself, or a parish within a parish. 'How are ye getting on, ah sure grand', type thing, people seeing each other at the local GAA club or pub. When I saw an occupational therapist in college one of her mantras was that having points of contact in the community is better for your emotional health. You can argue quality over quantity, I suppose. What they're going for is not the church in the ideological sense, but as a community focal point.

My bugbear with some of the current mental health campaigns is the emphasis on talking without much being said about the other side of that equation - listening.

The strategy came across my desk as well, so I need to jump in. Religion aside, it's hard to criticise the official approach to suicide in Ireland at the moment, I think. If the late Donal Walsh can set the conversation (including getting the Minister on board) without much scrutiny it's a bit worrying.

looksee

“In the past, Ireland had much lower suicide rates. This coincided with the time when most people were regular church goers."

Just by chance it also coincided with a time when suicide was not only regarded as a sin by the church, it was also illegal, and consequently a good deal of obfuscation went on.

expectationlost

panda100 wrote: »

I was reading through 'Connecting for Life', Ireland's national suicide prevention strategy, this morning for work-related reasons. It's not a very long document so I was struck by the inclusion of the following paragraph:



It appears to me to paint religion as a protective factor against suicide which I think is slightly misleading. From all my years working in the health sector the evidence appears to suggest that 'spiritual' people are at greater risk of developing psychiatric illnesses. So one could easily argue that religion is a risk factor rather than protective. It also does not sufficiently highlight the distress that religious beliefs may cause an individual, for example stigma of being gay etc.

I just thought what others views of this was?

Link to strategy: https://www.healthpromotion.ie/hp-files/docs/HME00945.pdf

53. VanPraag, H. (2009) ‘The role of religion in suicide prevention’. In Wasserman, C.
Oxford Textbook of Suicidology and Suicide Prevention: a Global Perspective.
Oxford: Oxford University Press; 7-12.

it will cost you to read it http://oxfordmedicine.com/view/10.1093/med/9780198570059.001.0001/med-9780198570059-chapter-2?rskey=JQGO9Y&result=2

i wouldn't have an immediate problem with it, although I do have problem with the HSE associating with Donal Walsh #LiveLife Foundation

robindch

panda100 wrote: »

[...] religion as a protective factor against suicide which I think is slightly misleading. From all my years working in the health sector the evidence appears to suggest that 'spiritual' people are at greater risk of developing psychiatric illnesses. [...]

Been a while since I last looked at the stats, but so far as I recall them, people from societies which who demonstrate higher degrees of religiosity are less likely to self-harm than people from societies which demonstrate lower degrees of religiosity. This doesn't seem unexpected in societies where the dominant religions recommend an eternity in hell for people who commit suicide.

But it's about the only area in which public religiosity is positively correlated with a social good, even a coerced one. Many of the other usual metrics of societal dysfunction - abortion, murder, crime in general, teenage pregnancy, STD's, wealth inequality, social deprivation, gender and other discriminations etc - are higher in western societies with higher degrees of public religiosity.

To point out one societal good positively correlated with displays of public religiosity, while ignoring all the correlative downsides, seems a touch on the dishonest side.

panda100

panda100 wrote: »

It appears to me to paint religion as a protective factor against suicide.....

It doesn't really, though. It mentions a reason or two why religious practice or religious connections might offer some protection against suicide, gives a reason why they might prevent people seeking help, and goes on to say that while religion might appear to be of benefit in this regard, it all depends on the context.

I'm summarising quite a bit, but that's the gist of it.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Many of the other usual metrics of societal dysfunction - abortion, murder, crime in general, teenage pregnancy, STD's, wealth inequality, social deprivation, gender and other discriminations etc - are higher in western societies with higher degrees of public religiosity.

We can claim that most countries have high degrees of religious belief, whatever about public religiosity, and the word "western" for these purposes seems to mean whatever people want it to mean. I do know that 7 of the 10 countries on Earth with the worst levels of wealth inequality are African, although in fairness quite a few of those would have high levels of religious faith. Also, very few if any of the most unequal countries in the World would belong in what is sometimes still called the "First World" (often interchangeable with the term "western"). But we will find Mexico at number 24 on the "blacklist" where the population is 83% Catholic, and China at number 26 where the country is officially atheist and 52% of the population are not affiliated to any religion.

I also recall reading a report a few years ago that showed that on the African continent there was an inverse link between the extent of HIV infection and the presence of either Islam or Catholicism; in short, the higher the percentage of Muslims or Catholics a country had, the lower its HIV infection rate tended to be. The report didn't suggest that a high incidence of Protestantism or of "indigenous" religions was connected with a low rate of HIV occurrence. Unfortunately I can't find that report now, and I'm not about to go trawling through the CIA World Factbook to check all the statistics. :eek:

As regards gender inequality, the link below is worth a read, though it helps if you are fond of numbers. But to summarise, it says that countries with higher levels of human development have lower levels of gender inequality, and that the top 20 countries in terms of gender equality are:

Slovenia
Switzerland
Germany
Sweden
Austria
Denmark
Netherlands
Italy
Belgium
Norway
Finland
France
Czech Republic
Iceland
Singapore
Spain
Israel
South Korea
Australia
Ireland

(with Lithuania, Portugal, Cyprus, Canada and Japan just after those)

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/table-4-gender-inequality-index

In regional terms, the highest abortion rates in the world are apparently to be found in Eastern Europe, followed by the Caribbean, the Eastern side of Africa, and then South-East Asia. Conversely, and again in regional terms, it would seem that the lowest rates of abortion are to be found in Western Europe, followed by Southern Africa, Northern Europe (which includes us), and then Down Under in Oceania.

http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/abortion-around-the-world-where-are-rates-highest/

Ireland has a very low homicide rate by international standards, but has a reputation for being quite a religious society. The same can be said for Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Saudi Arabia - but officially atheist China has a very low murder rate as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

What are we to make of it all, either in terms of geography or religion? Who knows?

One eyed Jack

panda100 wrote: »

It appears to me to paint religion as a protective factor against suicide which I think is slightly misleading. From all my years working in the health sector the evidence appears to suggest that 'spiritual' people are at greater risk of developing psychiatric illnesses. So one could easily argue that religion is a risk factor rather than protective. It also does not sufficiently highlight the distress that religious beliefs may cause an individual, for example stigma of being gay etc.

I just thought what others views of this was?

robindch wrote: »

To point out one societal good positively correlated with displays of public religiosity, while ignoring all the correlative downsides, seems a touch on the dishonest side.

I don't think it's intended to be dishonest though. If the policy was about the effects of religion upon society, then you could point out that they have ignored all the correlative downsides of religious belief. But the policy is about suicide prevention, and as I read that paragraph, they are acknowledging religious beliefs as a factor in suicide, and they point out both the positive and negative factors that can influence suicide -

Faith itself may be a protective factor since it typically provides a structured belief system and can advocate for behaviour that can be considered physically and mentally beneficial (53).

This is a positive influence.

Many religious and cultural beliefs and behaviours may also contribute towards stigma related to suicide due to their moral stances on suicide, which can discourage help-seeking behaviours.

This is a negative influence.

The protective value of religion and spirituality may occur from providing access to a socially cohesive and supportive community with a shared set of values. Many religious groups also prohibit suicide risk factors such as alcohol use. While religion and spiritual beliefs may offer some protection against suicide, this depends on specific cultural and contextual practices and interpretations.

This is an objective observation.


They're not pulling this stuff out of nowhere either -

While many interventions are geared towards the reduction of risk factors in suicide prevention, it is equally important to consider and strengthen the factors that have been shown to increase resilience and protect against suicidal behaviour. Research conducted by the World Health Organisation’s Preventing Suicide, A global imperative (19) demonstrates that strong personal relationships, religious or spiritual beliefs and a lifestyle practice of positive coping strategies and wellbeing are protective factors against the risk of suicide.

Those are three different factors, and can be completely separated from each other.

panda100 wrote: »

From all my years working in the health sector the evidence appears to suggest that 'spiritual' people are at greater risk of developing psychiatric illnesses.

If you spent most of your years working in the health sector in the developed world, I would have thought this piece in the report would have jumped out at you in relation to people who are likely more predisposed to psychiatric and ill mental health disorders, and IMO you're putting the cart before the horse in relation to people who are religious being more likely predisposed to psychiatric disorders. I would have said it was the other way around, that people with psychiatric disorders are more likely to veer towards the more fundamentalist end of religious belief -

Mental health problems

In high-income countries, mental health problems are present in up to 90% of people who die by suicide (12), and among the 10% without clear diagnoses, psychiatric symptoms resemble those of people who die by suicide. However, mental health problems seem to be less prevalent (around 60%) among those who die by suicide in some Asian countries, as shown in studies from China and India (104, 105). The risk factor should be approached with some caution. Depression, substance use disorders and antisocial behaviours are relatively common and most people suffering from them will not display suicidal behaviour. However, people dying by suicide or making suicide attempts may have a significant psychiatric comorbidity. Suicide risk varies with the type of disorder, and the most common disorders associated with suicidal behaviour are depression and alcohol use disorders. The lifetime risk of suicide is estimated to be 4% in patients with mood disorders (14), 6% in people with eating disorders (106), 7% in people with alcohol dependence (17). 8% in people with bipolar disorder (107, 108) and 5% in people with schizophrenia (109). Importantly, the risk of suicidal behaviour increases with comorbidity; individuals with more than one mental health problem have significantly higher risks (12).

One of the greatest contributing factors to suicide, in my experience at least, is isolation, and religion offers individuals a sense of belonging to a community -

Community and relationship risk factors

The communities that people live in have an important association with
suicide risk factors. Worldwide, different cultural, religious, legal and historical factors have shaped the status and understanding of suicide, leading to the identification of a wide range of community factors that influence suicide risk. A person’s immediate relationships with family, close friends and significant others can also have an impact on suicidal behaviour. Some of the key factors related to these areas are described below.

Can a person feel that they are part of a community that has no religious bent to it?

Of course! There are many different types of communities, but that shouldn't discount the acknowledgement and the observation that there is a commonality in religious communities which offers both a feeling of belonging to a community, a reduced risk of alcohol and substance abuse, and a reduced risk of isolation.

El_Duderino 09

I did an assignment on positive aging and found that participation in religious community is a big protective factor for older people. Obviously the god belief is meaningless as religious belief doesn't matter a jot without the social side. Participation in a community is an important protective factor and the religious do community very well.

It's inclusion in the policy document is justifiable.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I did an assignment on positive aging and found that participation in religious community is a big protective factor for older people. Obviously the god belief is meaningless as religious belief doesn't matter a jot without the social side. Participation in a community is an important protective factor and the religious do community very well.

It's inclusion in the policy document is justifiable.

I'd agree with the general point you're making about the religious doing community very well, but also as was noted in the report, a person's personal religious beliefs in their own right, even without the community aspect, can be both a preventative and protective measure, because what they may offer that person is hope, which can be a positive influence in their lives.

As the report also noted - many of these factors, including religious beliefs, should be regarded in context.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote:

I'd agree with the general point you're making about the religious doing community very well, but also as was noted in the report, a person's personal religious beliefs in their own right, even without the community aspect, can be both a preventative and protective measure, because what they may offer that person is hope, which can be a positive influence in their lives.

Sorry but I don't think you're right. I was talking about my experience with scientific literature, not my opinion. Are you speaking about scientific research about hope or you're own hope that hope is a protective factor?

The science found a protective effect for attending religious social and community events. They found no effect for private belief, no matter how strong that belief was. They didn't measure hope specifically. The point was demonstrated that attending religious social events had a similar effect to attending other social events and having a meaningful occupation.

The religious just happen to offer a range of social events.

Orion

looksee wrote: »

Just by chance it also coincided with a time when suicide was not only regarded as a sin by the church, it was also illegal, and consequently a good deal of obfuscation went on.

Also the coronor couldn't rule death by suicide until relatively recently.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sorry but I don't think you're right. I was talking about my experience with scientific literature, not my opinion. Are you speaking about scientific research about hope or you're own hope that hope is a protective factor?

The science found a protective effect for attending religious social and community events. They found no effect for private belief, no matter how strong that belief was. They didn't measure hope specifically. The point was demonstrated that attending religious social events had a similar effect to attending other social events and having a meaningful occupation.

The religious just happen to offer a range of social events.

Well more specifically what I meant was the effect of a person's religious beliefs upon their mental health. Giving people hope is more of a preventative factor, and one of the ways in which people are given hope is through prayer. There have been studies done which have shown that private belief actually can have a positive effect on a person's mental health -

What are your deepest beliefs regarding the nature of God? When you pray, do you talk to a loving, protective and easily accessible God? Or does God feel strangely distant and unreachable? Perhaps a disciplinarian? A new study says that your beliefs about the “character” of God determine the effects of prayer on your mental health.

Researchers from Baylor University found that people who pray to a loving and protective God are less likely to experience anxiety-related disorders—worry, fear, self-consciousness, social anxiety and obsessive compulsive behavior—compared to people who pray but don’t really expect to receive any comfort or protection from God.

The study, entitled "Prayer, Attachment to God, and Symptoms of Anxiety-Related Disorders among U.S. Adults" is published in the journal Sociology of Religion. For the research, investigators looked at the data of 1,714 volunteers who participated in the most recent Baylor Religion Survey. They focused on general anxiety, social anxiety, obsession and compulsion.

For many people, God is a source of comfort and strength, says researcher Matt Bradshaw, Ph.D; and through prayer, they enter into an intimate relationship with Him and begin to feel a secure attachment. When this is the case, prayer offers emotional comfort, resulting in fewer symptoms of anxiety disorders.

Some people, however, have formed avoidant or insecure attachments to God, explains Bradshaw. This means that they do not necessarily believe that God is there for them. Prayer starts to feel like an unsuccessful attempt at having a close relationship with God. Feelings of rejection or “unanswered” prayers may lead to severe symptoms of anxiety-related disorders, he says.

The findings add to the growing body of research confirming a connection between a person's perceived relationship with God and mental and physical health. In fact, a recent study by Oregon State University found that religion and spirituality result in two distinct but complementary health benefits. Religion (religious affiliation and service attendance) is linked to better health habits, including less smoking and alcohol consumption, while spirituality (prayer, meditation) helps regulate emotions.

Another recent study by Columbia University found that participating in regular meditation or other spiritual practice actually thickens parts of the brain’s cortex, and this could be the reason those activities tend to guard against depression—especially in those at risk for the disease.

Source: New Study Examines the Effects of Prayer on Mental Health

Cabaal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well more specifically what I meant was the effect of a person's religious beliefs upon their mental health. Giving people hope is more of a preventative factor, and one of the ways in which people are given hope is through prayer. There have been studies done which have shown that private belief actually can have a positive effect on a person's mental health -

But it can also have a negative affect too depending on the persons existing mental health,

You have to remember that its the person that answers those prayers so they can ultimately get their "god" to agree with what they wish to do and agree that its the right thing and they will be forgiven.

One eyed Jack

Cabaal wrote: »

But it can also have a negative affect too depending on the persons existing mental health,

You have to remember that its the person that answers those prayers so they can ultimately get their "god" to agree with what they wish to do and agree that its the right thing and they will be forgiven.

Absolutely, and I pointed this out earlier -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If you spent most of your years working in the health sector in the developed world, I would have thought this piece in the report would have jumped out at you in relation to people who are likely more predisposed to psychiatric and ill mental health disorders, and IMO you're putting the cart before the horse in relation to people who are religious being more likely predisposed to psychiatric disorders. I would have said it was the other way around, that people with psychiatric disorders are more likely to veer towards the more fundamentalist end of religious belief -

Hotblack Desiato

looksee wrote: »

Just by chance it also coincided with a time when suicide was not only regarded as a sin by the church, it was also illegal, and consequently a good deal of obfuscation went on.

...and when we had one of the highest psychiatric incarceration rates in the world.

expectationlost

Annual report 2014 / National Office for Suicide Prevention (2015.) http://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Library3/DOHdoclaid290915_144530.pdf

StonyIron

One issue here in the recent past is that not being religious often meant that you were shunned by society. We still have a school system that basically won't recognise atheists or sees them as lapsed Catholics that need to be put back on the "correct" state sanctioned track.

The US still has an element of that : eg people won't vote for a non religious candidate in an election and it's still seen by some as something to be shameful of.

I'd also question the sense of community in a church like the main one here. People don't go to mass for a chat. It can be very formal and impersonal.

Being involved in an actual social group seems far more important than anything else.

We should be encouraging that - providing decent community facilities for sports, for clubs, etc

Ideally, every town, village, suburb and city should have spaces for almost university like clubs & societies.

The biggest problem in Ireland is that socialising = drinking in the pub and that can be a bit of a disaster for some people.

silverharp

StonyIron wrote: »

One issue here in the recent past is that not being religious often meant that you were shunned by society. We still have a school system that basically won't recognise atheists or sees them as lapsed Catholics that need to be put back on the "correct" state sanctioned track.

The US still has an element of that : eg people won't vote for a non religious candidate in an election and it's still seen by some as something to be shameful of.

I'd also question the sense of community in a church like the main one here. People don't go to mass for a chat. It can be very formal and impersonal.

Being involved in an actual social group seems far more important than anything else.

We should be encouraging that - providing decent community facilities for sports, for clubs, etc

Ideally, every town, village, suburb and city should have spaces for almost university like clubs & societies.

The biggest problem in Ireland is that socialising = drinking in the pub and that can be a bit of a disaster for some people.

My in-laws are German so I get to see small town family life over there and its much more personal. The neighbours meet up to play cards have barbeques sing in the local choir. I always got the impression people in the county here were friendly more as a way of keeping tabs on you or finding put gossip.

Hotblack Desiato

there's also the whole "parish hall" instead of "community hall" thing here, anything the PP or bish dislikes is out.

lazygal

The term 'parish' is used to donate all kinds of things, especially in the areas my parents were born in. There's rerefences to the 'parish' team, the 'parish' club etc. Not everyone in the 'parish' is a member of the 'parish'.

StonyIron

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

there's also the whole "parish hall" instead of "community hall" thing here, anything the PP or bish dislikes is out.

It's a term that throws back to English style Parish councils, which we no longer have. There were formal parishes (not in a religious sense) as a subdivision of counties in rural areas.

We need to totally reform local government here to create local structures that support this kind of thing. FG/Labour and FF have a history of demolishing local government instead of reforming it.

You really do need community level stuff, even if it's just a democratic version of the Tidy Towns Committee in reality.

Lack of a local village / town hall means there's no community structure, no forum for setting anything up.

It shouldn't be down to the church or the GAA either. We should have some kind of actual formalised community structures, even if their members were volunteers it would help reconnect communities.

Instead, we've FG and Labour abolishing town councils entirely and now abolishing city councils in favour of big amorphous messes.

We're ripping out and not replacing things that are literally the fabric of society.

martinjudge73

panda100 wrote: »

I was reading through 'Connecting for Life', Ireland's national suicide prevention strategy, this morning for work-related reasons. It's not a very long document so I was struck by the inclusion of the following paragraph:



It appears to me to paint religion as a protective factor against suicide which I think is slightly misleading. From all my years working in the health sector the evidence appears to suggest that 'spiritual' people are at greater risk of developing psychiatric illnesses. So one could easily argue that religion is a risk factor rather than protective. It also does not sufficiently highlight the distress that religious beliefs may cause an individual, for example stigma of being gay etc.

I just thought what others views of this was?

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I checked once about Pioneers and could not find one of them who had committed suicide in Ireland. They are a catholic group.

not catholic myself, but I find meditation very calming. Thought Lough derg was great. I suppose i am an atheist on the road to agnosticism.

Alcohol has a big part to play in suicide in Ireland.

expectationlost

Console opens counselling rooms in Donal Walsh’s memory

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/console-opens-counselling-rooms-in-donal-walsh-s-memory-1.2404201

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/counselling-rooms-dedicated-to-donal-walsh-361138.html
http://utv.ie/News/2015/10/23/Counselling-rooms-open-in-memory-of-Donal-Walsh-47543

these are rooms for people who relatives have committed suicide as Donal and his family consider them the truevitims in this