Spindle moulder

woodturner

So I've bitten the bullet and bought one of these. Came with the ring fence, tenoning table and collets to take router bits. Second hand but everything is there and flawless. I also got the Jet 22" drum sander, second hand also but needs a new switch (quite pricey ) to get it functioning again. Pictures to follow in a couple of days.

kadman

Ring fence is definitely a handy bit of kit. Really opens up the potential of a spindle moulder.

Any power feed, whats the make.

Best of luck with the new bit of kit, and stay safe.

tim

woodturner

No power feed but it's something I'll be looking into . It's a Jet Jws34x

Grueller

Well wear but get the power feed for safety if nothing else. I have a sister who is an a&e nurse and the only woodworking machine she can name is a spindle moulder.

woodturner

http://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-jws-34-lx-spindle-moulder

flush1

i have a spindle for the last few years identical to that.a nice machine,never gave an ounce of trouble.i got a power feed for it,really made a job of it.

woodturner

flush1 wrote: »

i have a spindle for the last few years identical to that.a nice machine,never gave an ounce of trouble.i got a power feed for it,really made a job of it.

Could you tell me what feed you got? I was looking at them on the Axminster website.

flush1

its a jet "jpf-2".it looks identical to the co matic af32 on the axminster website.

Miname

Get a good power feed with a really slow speed, some come too fast for a clean finish. Get good cutters and blocks and stay safe, I'm one of those people who fought a spindle moulder and lost.

Grueller

Miname wrote: »

Get a good power feed with a really slow speed, some come too fast for a clean finish. Get good cutters and blocks and stay safe, I'm one of those people who fought a spindle moulder and lost.

Me too, but luckily not too badly in my case.

kadman

Might be a idea here for " Stay safe on a spindle " thread, for any newbies to spindle use,
as there are a good few here who have experience of them, and are only too well aware of the hazards
associated with the use.

I think one of the most dangerous things I,ve heard by novice users is stop rebating, and missing the line
on introducing the piece into a rebating block....................and then reversing the direction of the piece
by hand, to try and finish at the line. Cant be done of course, as the block will fire that piece like a ball
out of a cannon. And a 6x3x6' teak cill travelling 75' at waist high in a workshop can wreak some damage.
Notice I say heard, because the firsst I knew of this was when the cill struck the end wall of the workshop.

So..........any stop rebating should have front and back end stops attached to the spindle fences, back end
at least to stop any kickback on entry. Outfeed fence overhead pressure if possible, and good support on both
infeed and outfeed tables. And a shaw guard and full face sacrificial fence where possible.

As all spindle users know, a spindle is only waiting to bite.............and when it does....

I cut the sleeve of a workmates jacket off when he was moulding 275 mm long cabinet door arched heads,
freehand, without a jig or any formwork around the ring fence. As I couldn,t bear to watch his cuffs being
tipped by the cutter profile every time he ran a head.

I refused to do this job, without making up a jig to protect my hands, and without installing a safety guard
on the ring fence. I was given 2 weeeks notice and sent home. The other chappie was happy to risk it.

Safety first, every thing else after.
end of rant

woodturner

That's a great idea Tim. There's a lot of things I have never done on a spindle moulder, using a ring fence would be one of them.

kadman

woodturner wrote: »

That's a great idea Tim. There's a lot of things I have never done on a spindle moulder, using a ring fence would be one of them.

Well if you or anyone else wants to start a thread on it, I,ll be more than happy to chip in with anything I can help with,

Most important thing with ring fence work is condition of spindle table, as you want a smooth low friction clean surface to push your jig and work across safely, and then the cutterblock needs to be as sharp as possible.

But before you even press the button, number 1 task is risk assessment of the job in hand. Can it be done safely, can you do it safely, and what do you need to get,buy, make, borrow, or steal, in order to do it safely

Break it down into single tasks that need to be done.
Work out how you are going to do that part of the task.
Only when you are confident that the task can be performed safely.
Assess the next step.

Any single ring fence machined component , is the culmination of a few completed tasks performed safey throughout.

kadman

In very general terms,

You, and your jig and workpiece have to orbit around the spindle, and exit safely.
If you bend your elbows at 90 degrees directly in front of you, this is basically
the stance you will have holding the jig...

Your ring fence will have a maximum depth of cut mark at the outer edge, facing outwards
from the fence edge, assuming of course your cutter maximum does not exceed the diameter
of the ring fence.

So in plan, 90 degrees towards the right of this mark, is generally in the ballpark of where your
jig will make its first contact with the ring fence.

Generally your orbit path of you, and the jigged work will rotate around the center point of the spindle
shaft in a clockwise direction , in plan .When you have reached the maximum depth of cut mark on the ring fence,
your path would tend to move generally at 90 degrees to the left of this mark in a straightish path,
with your hands, on the jig moving in and out, and your body rotating slightly , left and right to follow your
jig profile, along the ring fence.

Thats generally how the process is going to progress in short.
any comments please feel free to discuss.

Hope its clear, if not .....ask

kadman

I think this video explains exactly what I,m on about.
Notice the movement of the operator around the spindle, and the
positions of the hands on the jig.

If you look closely at the ring fence, halfway through the run, you can clearly see the
maximum depth of cut scribe on the ring. This is the point that the operator is making sure
his profile jig contacts here all the time. That way he is sure he has max depth cut all
around the machined piece when he is finished.

galwaydude18

kadman wrote: »

I think this video explains exactly what I,m on about.
Notice the movement of the operator around the spindle, and the
positions of the hands on the jig.

If you look closely at the ring fence, halfway through the run, you can clearly see the
maximum depth of cut scribe on the ring. This is the point that the operator is making sure
his profile jig contacts here all the time. That way he is sure he has max depth cut all
around the machined piece when he is finished.

Savage Tim!! Did he apply a rebeate using that jig in the video?

kadman

galwaydude18 wrote: »

Savage Tim!! Did he apply a rebeate using that jig in the video?

He applied the full window profile to the piece, bottom rebate, capiliary groove,
top shoulder and chamfer ...all in one.

Looks like a Koduna full profile block he is using. He started off with a plane cut curved piece.

Standard practice

woodturner

I'm guessing it would be better to have ample room around the spindle for larger radii. Not up very close to a wall or other machines.

galwaydude18

kadman wrote: »

He applied the full window profile to the piece, bottom rebate, capiliary groove,
top shoulder and chamfer ...all in one.

Looks like a Koduna full profile block he is using. He started off with a plane cut curved piece.

Standard practice

Lol I see it now. I should have gone full screen earlier on ;-)

flush1

woodturner wrote: »

I'm guessing it would be better to have ample room around the spindle for larger radii. Not up very close to a wall or other machines.

you would want to keep it out far enough if you want to put a dust extracror behind it or if you want to swing the power feed back out of your way when changing heads or cutters etc or if you need to put on the ring fence or sliding carriage

kadman

flush1 wrote: »

you would want to keep it out far enough if you want to put a dust extracror behind it or if you want to swing the power feed back out of your way when changing heads or cutters etc or if you need to put on the ring fence or sliding carriage

Ditto.

Well away from any wall, other machines or obstacles. Plenty of room.

If you look at the video , you will notice a couple of important things relevent to
safety for machining this piece. Noticeably the removal of the power feed from the machine, as when he runs the piece, he passes very near to its bolt locations, or even over it. Follow the orbit path.

Also the method of attachment to the jig . Clamping system would be preferential to screws, where its possible, but some method of mechanical attachment is needed, if clamps are not feasable or available.

And the choice and reasons why, the template profile is placed on top, as well as the ring fence. There are pro,s and cons for top or bottom fence location, but its a choice really based on a number of factors, considered during risk assessment phase at the outset of consideration for this piece.

kadman

Scary movie part 1.

And if you cant be really bothered with all the safety crap.

Then this outfit will no doubt give you a job. Notice where this guys fingers are skipping over
and around the cutter block, on the curved components run.

Do ya feel lucky, will do ya.

flush1

That is what you call a death trap!

galwaydude18

Jesus this should be played at all training sessions. I had a good few heart stopping moments there where I thought his fingers were gonners :-( stupid stupid man.

galwaydude18

That's tonight's nightmares sorted after watching it all

kadman

True enough chaps, but the same scenario prevails here too, if you are willing to be forced into
taking such risks in the workplace.

And its this type of work environment that generates the cheap tat that is flooding this part of
the hemisphere, and doing away with the quality of woodwork that was once appreciated here.

But nuff said,

Yes there are so many issues going on here in this vid its hard to know where to start, but it does
clearly show the danger aspects apparent.

Clamping is with toggle clamps, ok if they produce enough holding force, but they look too small to me.

Full depth cutter block appears to be under powered as its dying down under load, allowing serious possibility
of major kickback.
Profile running on the spindle bed, and the fence down under the block is ok, IF the profile jig is wide enough
to provide good stability, and the ring fence has a top pressure pad keeping the stock and jig base down.
If not there is always the possibility of the jig base running up over the ring fence edge, and into the block.

All in all, and we could say more about the issues clearly going on here, I,m not too sure that this is the way
to do it. More of a spot the mistakes.

I dont speak hindi or virdu or whatever is the spoken word in the vid, but I suspect its something like,

OOh jesus, that was close, aw fek be careful, woops that was near, have I still got me fingers, ouch what was that........

kadman

Part 2 tomorrow,

Nighty, nite, dont let the cutter blocks bite:P

jack of all

I'm out, too scary for me!

kadman

jack of all wrote: »

I'm out, too scary for me!

What part scares you most.

The fact that he appears to be getting the worlds most extreme manicure.

If you look at the clamping method used, theoretically good toggle clamps are useable in ring fence work, on some jobs.

The fact that these are horizontal locking clamps..........and that he is using them as push handles for the jig against a profile cutterblock thats cutting full face, just beggars belief.

The first vid shows the proper safe method of good vertical holding points, with no restrictive loops, bends or grips that would restrict a quick release of the jig, should things go way out of control beyond recovery.

Fighting with a spindle if this happens, is like trying to feed jaws with a sardine clenched between your pinkies. Only spindle has a better grip:D

woodturner

Were these ring fences also referred to as horse shoes?

kadman

woodturner wrote: »

Were these ring fences also referred to as horse shoes?

Yes,
Reason being some of the very early ring fences of eons ago,
were basically a U shaped [eace of metal, with a leg off one of the
sides of the U, and attached down to the table.

Outdated fence now, although you do come across them, but shouldn,t use them.
Another outdated thing of the past, is a twin shaft spindle. With shafts rotating in opposite directions, specifically used for shaped profile work as well.
One shaft was the infeed of a curved profile...........halfway through, switch over to the other shaft, and do the infeed end of that piece. And do another 500 of them after that one.

Get your head around that one.
Cutter blocks were also opposite hand, and needed to be fitted to the correct shaft.So no room for error here. And just to make things very interesting, these spindle hands as they were known......were on piece work.

woodturner

Is there anything you don't know oh wise one?

woodturner

kadman wrote: »

Yes,
Reason being some of the very early ring fences of eons ago,
were basically a U shaped [eace of metal, with a leg off one of the
sides of the U, and attached down to the table.

Outdated fence now, although you do come across them, but shouldn,t use them.
Another outdated thing of the past, is a twin shaft spindle. With shafts rotating in opposite directions, specifically used for shaped profile work as well.
One shaft was the infeed of a curved profile...........halfway through, switch over to the other shaft, and do the infeed end of that piece. And do another 500 of them after that one.

Get your head around that one.
Cutter blocks were also opposite hand, and needed to be fitted to the correct shaft.So no room for error here. And just to make things very interesting, these spindle hands as they were known......were on piece work.

Yes, I seen a video on the 'tube of a twin shaft spindle being used. Not something you'd want to make a mistake on for sure. A guy in work years ago was using the horse shoe fence, fed the workpiece in the wrong direction and lost the tops of three fingers. I think two were found when he was sent to the hospital and the other the next day in shavings

kadman

woodturner wrote: »

Yes, I seen a video on the 'tube of a twin shaft spindle being used. Not something you'd want to make a mistake on for sure. A guy in work years ago was using the horse shoe fence, fed the workpiece in the wrong direction and lost the tops of three fingers. I think two were found when he was sent to the hospital and the other the next day in shavings

Know all about that.

And what was the upshot of that event.
Risk assessment of future similar spindle tasks, proper training in relation to dangerous spindle operations.

No, nothing. The intelligent powers that owned and ran that facility. Removed the fekking machine. You bad machine, bad spindle, you naughty machine, and moved it to the back shed, never to see the light of day again.

Thats realy going to stop future accidents. Its the same mentality as prevalent in the posted vid. Worker is expendable, and any accidents are his own fault.

Dont get me started.

There is no such thing as a bad machine, an inadequately trained operator is more the cause.

kadman

woodturner wrote: »

Is there anything you don't know oh wise one?

Oh...plenty...but I,m not telling:P

woodturner

kadman wrote: »

Oh...plenty...but I,m not telling:P

Ah go on haha

woodturner

They were good machines though. They only needed like 4 discs of sandpaper bent in half to parallel the fences to each other ???????
It must have taken twice the length of time to set the machine than it did to machine the components.

kadman

So sounds like improper ongoing maintainence then. They dont maintain themselves.
Maintainence department does and fitters.

I know the company you are on about , it had neither. The long running Tullamore based joinery
out in Cappincur, had a full maintainence department, 3 fitters, and 3 electricians, when they had
200+ joinery staff, not including office staff. And machines were taken off line for monthly maintainence
checks.

I dont recall any of that taking place in the said joinery we are discussing. For most joineries, downtime
means loss of production, they dont like it, so they dont do it. They think bad of stopping a 6 cutter to
sharpen the blocks.

woodturner

kadman wrote: »

So sounds like improper ongoing maintainence then. They dont maintain themselves.
Maintainence department does and fitters.

I know the company you are on about , it had neither. The long running Tullamore based joinery
out in Cappincur, had a full maintainence department, 3 fitters, and 3 electricians, when they had
200+ joinery staff, not including office staff. And machines were taken off line for monthly maintainence
checks.

I dont recall any of that taking place in the said joinery we are discussing. For most joineries, downtime
means loss of production, they dont like it, so they dont do it. They think bad of stopping a 6 cutter to
sharpen the blocks.

No it never took place. Ever

kadman

I tried to suggest about proper training for spindle operators and any new staff that did not
have the relevent experience for the required scope of works.

I was told that this particular joinery had a 100 year history, and basically told me to stick to
the job I was employed for, which was cad/production/ material take off. And that they didn,t need
any of my input in that area.

I even still have the training specs some where here.

I dont think they even had a health and safety officer , Did They ???
and 100,s of staff

There you go...

woodturner

kadman wrote: »

I tried to suggest about proper training for spindle operators and any new staff that did not
have the relevent experience for the required scope of works.

I was told that this particular joinery had a 100 year history, and basically told me to stick to
the job I was employed for, which was cad/production/ material take off. And that they didn,t need
any of my input in that area.

I even still have the training specs some where here.

I dont think they even had a health and safety officer , Did They ???
and 100,s of staff

There you go...

No they didn't.