What is the usual procedure for shannon controllers?

euser1984

On guiding airlines through Irish airspace?

Thanks.

Cessna_Pilot

They radar identify them and give them instructions.

euser1984

I'm have flightradar24 and the liveatc app and it's hard to figure out what's going on generally....the only thing I can make out so far is planes being assigned frequencies to use (for further communication I assume).


There doesn't seem to be such a large amount of planes flying around the country etc. What makes it so stressful or is today a quiet day?


At what stage do they radar identify them? Is it usually the atc that sees them first and asks for details or does the flight contact them? In the atc centre in shannon is there a broadcast to all operators when a flight comes into irish airspace? Does it then get assigned to a specific controller by way of frequency? I suppose there is probably communications between different airspace owners aswell - I'm just trying to figure out how it all works?

Pat Dunne

euser1984 wrote: »

I'm have flightradar24 and the liveatc app and it's hard to figure out what's going on generally....the only thing I can make out so far is planes being assigned frequencies to use (for further communication I assume).


There doesn't seem to be such a large amount of planes flying around the country etc. What makes it so stressful or is today a quiet day?


At what stage do they radar identify them? Is it usually the atc that sees them first and asks for details or does the flight contact them? In the atc centre in shannon is there a broadcast to all operators when a flight comes into irish airspace? Does it then get assigned to a specific controller by way of frequency? I suppose there is probably communications between different airspace owners aswell - I'm just trying to figure out how it all works?

I don't know a lot about the subject myself, but following a simple Google search, I have come up with this for you https://www.iaa.ie/atm

EchoIndia

Too many basic questions here to answer in a brief way but en route traffic passing through Irish airspace will have been handed over to Shannon by the previous ATC agency, e.g. London. As aircraft are typically allowed to route from their entry point to Irish airspace to their exit point, which may be measured in hundreds of miles, there may not be a lot of voice communication other than to effect handover to the next Shannon sector controller or the next (non-Irish domestic) ATC sector. Shannon has multiple frequencies so as to divide traffic up by area and flight level. At busy times a lot of different frequencies will be in use. The level of activity in Irish airspace also varies a good deal according to the North Atlantic tracks in use. Google the latter if you need to find out more.

euser1984

euser1984 wrote: »

On guiding airlines through Irish airspace?

Thanks.

A flightplan is filed by the airline in a standard format which is disseminated to all the affected ATC units. The ATC unit at the start of the flight issues a clearance for that flight and it's given a transponder code (squawk) which is linked to the flightplan. So when it gets airborne the aircraft and flightplan match and the controller knows what it is and where it is going.

The aircraft flies along motorways in the sky called airways. As it progresses data is sent from one ATC unit to another about the flight time/height/squawk etc. the aircraft are handed over from one unit to another in a long relay. Each unit will keep it away from other and move it along its flightplan if shortcuts are available they can give them. All the while ATC are dealing with lots of other aircraft doing similar and crossing.

bronn

Pretty much, and as far as I can understand it, there are no Air Traffic Controllers (ATCs) in "Shannon" controlling high level flights over Ireland. There are ATCs in Shannon airport that handle traffic landing or departing from Shannon airport. The people you hear on the radio from "Shannon" are Radio Officers.

What is commonly called "Shannon" ATC is actually Shanwick. Shanwick is the North Atlantic Communications Centre based in Ballygirreen, Co. Clare - they do all the communicating with planes. The ATCs are in Prestwick, near Glasgow. Shanwick is a portmanteau of Shannon and Prestwick. Everything you want to know about Shanwick Oceanic Control is set out here on wiki.

There's also a great page from the UK's National Air Traffic Services (NATS) on this, complete with a good animation on the 1,400 flights per day that fly through Shanwick Oceanic Control.

EchoIndia

bronn wrote: »

Pretty much, and as far as I can understand it, there are no Air Traffic Controllers (ATCs) in "Shannon" controlling high level flights over Ireland. There are ATCs in Shannon airport that handle traffic landing or departing from Shannon airport. The people you hear on the radio from "Shannon" are Radio Officers.

What is commonly called "Shannon" ATC is actually Shanwick. Shanwick is the North Atlantic Communications Centre based in Ballygirreen, Co. Clare - they do all the communicating with planes. The ATCs are in Prestwick, near Glasgow. Shanwick is a portmanteau of Shannon and Prestwick. Everything you want to know about Shanwick Oceanic Control is set out here on wiki.

That's not correct. Shannon ATC handles all high-level flights within the Shannon FIR and associated NOTA and SOTA areas. This is standard ATC with radar and VHF radio. Shanwick provides procedural ATC in oceanic airspace which is virtually all beyond the range of radar.

Aerohead

EchoIndia wrote: »

That's not correct. Shannon ATC handles all high-level flights within the Shannon FIR and associated NOTA and SOTA areas. This is standard ATC with radar and VHF radio. Shanwick provides procedural ATC in oceanic airspace which is virtually all beyond the rage of radar.

Shannon covers a huge area under their control , I knew a controller there and spent a day with him, all the high level traffic is controlled from the middle part of the tower ,there is a very large area of controllers working there and the top of the tower covers the low level stuff around the Country and going into and out of Cork, Kerry,Waterford and Knock, in the radio station at Ballygreen Shanwick control all high level traffic in the Atlantic in conjunction with controllers at Prestwick Scotland and Gander in Newfoundland , I never knew they covered such a huge are until I visited there the radar coverage on their screens was very large as was their monitor screens

testicle

Aerohead wrote: »

Correct Shannon covers a huge are in under their control , I knew a controller there and spent a day with him, all the high level traffic is controlled from the middle part of the tower there is a very large area of controllers working there and the top of the tower covers the low level stuff around the Country and going into and out of Cork, Kerry,Waterford and Knock, in the radio station at Ballygreen Shanwick control all high level traffic in the Atlantic in conjunction with controllers at Prestwick Scotland and Gander

That must have been a long time ago that you spent that day there. There's a new ATC centre in Ballycasey for years...

cml387

euser1984 wrote: »

There doesn't seem to be such a large amount of planes flying around the country etc. What makes it so stressful or is today a quiet day?

The job of all controllers can be stressful in the sense of the responsibility involved in the job of guiding thousands of people safely through the airspace.

You may have in mind the airport controllers who are filtering traffic into a busy airport, or the ground controllers weaving departures and arrivals into the airport.

Dublin tower and approach can get pretty hectic, and for true movie-style heroics have a listen to La Guardia tower some time.

Aerohead

Aerohead wrote: »

Shannon covers a huge area under their control , I knew a controller there and spent a day with him, all the high level traffic is controlled from the middle part of the tower ,there is a very large area of controllers working there and the top of the tower covers the low level stuff around the Country and going into and out of Cork, Kerry,Waterford and Knock, in the radio station at Ballygreen Shanwick control all high level traffic in the Atlantic in conjunction with controllers at Prestwick Scotland and Gander in Newfoundland , I never knew they covered such a huge are until I visited there the radar coverage on their screens was very large as was their monitor screens

Tower=looking out the window at aircraft on the airfield and in the circuit

Centre or ACC=looking at a radar display at aircraft hundreds of miles away

Aerohead

testicle wrote: »

That must have been a long time ago that you spent that day there. There's a new ATC centre in Ballycasey for years...

Yeah you are right there it has been a good few years since I was there but either way it was very impressive, I never knew they had a new control centre at Ballycasey, one thing I notice listening to Shannon on 124.700 they seem to be talking to a lot of high level traffic now, I always thought they were low level which they still do but the must have extended their control to high level as well, any info on that.

Aerohead

Aerohead wrote: »

Yeah you are right there it has been a good few years since I was there but either way it was very impressive, I never knew they had a new control centre at Ballycasey, one thing I notice listening to Shannon on 124.700 they seem to be talking to a lot of high level traffic now, I always thought they were low level which they still do but the must have extended their control to high level as well, any info on that.

They "band box" combine frequencys when it's quiet in low level so appropriately rated high level controllers can work low level traffic while working their own high level traffic.

markpb

Deleted User wrote: »

A flightplan is filed by the airline in a standard format which is disseminated to all the affected ATC units.

How does that happen?

markpb

markpb wrote: »

How does that happen?

At ACCs the passing of data on individual flights as part of the co-ordination
process may be carried out by telephone or through connecting Flight Data Processing
Systems (FDPS) (Chapter 6) which have largely replaced verbal estimates.

https://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/default/files/content/documents/nm/airspace/airspace-atmprocedures-coordination-transfer-procedures-guidelines-1.0.pdf see pages 22 and 23


http://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/2014/AIDC-OLDI%20Seminar/Annex_D_OLDI_%20Message_Types.pdf

Aerohead

Deleted User wrote: »

They "band box" combine frequencys when it's quiet in low level so appropriately rated high level controllers can work low level traffic while working their own high level traffic.

That explains so why I can hear Shannon on 124.700 giving a frequency different to 124.700 but I can still hear them on 124.700 even though they had been asked to change to a different frequency. Thanks for that.

testicle

Aerohead wrote: »

Yeah you are right there it has been a good few years since I was there but either way it was very impressive, I never knew they had a new control centre at Ballycasey.

It's quite a sizable place. http://url.ie/z48i

martinsvi

euser1984 wrote: »

I'm have flightradar24 and the liveatc app and it's hard to figure out what's going on generally....the only thing I can make out so far is planes being assigned frequencies to use (for further communication I assume).

As far as Shannon "HIGH" goes, that's pretty much what happens for passing aircraft. They would issue instructions only if there's deviation from the planned route or the plane has intentions to land. Generally if the plane is just passing, pilot tunes on the frequency and says hi and ATC acknowledges their presence and after a good while hand them over to the next sector/controller.

The reason why you might have difficulty understanding what's happening is because in liveatc.net you have number of frequencies running on one stream, it's very difficult to understand what's happening even for experienced listener.

euser1984 wrote: »

There doesn't seem to be such a large amount of planes flying around the country etc. What makes it so stressful or is today a quiet day?

it depends on time of day. You get your North American traffic inbound in at morning and leaving in the afternoon, stuff gets very busy at times. But it doesnt mean that the ATC's job is stressful. As many of them will tell you - it only get's stressful when something goes wrong.

euser1984 wrote: »

At what stage do they radar identify them? Is it usually the atc that sees them first and asks for details or does the flight contact them?

they see a blip on their radar with a number assigned to it - squawk code - but they don't really do anything with it until the plane contacts them first. A very simplified example - imagine a plane flying from Manchester to Dublin. Manchester ATC (remember - I said simplified example ) some time before the plane is about to leave their airspace will give them Dublin ATC frequency and ask them to contact it. Contact is made before the plane has entered the new traffic control zone, ATC may or may not assign them a new squawk, but will advise if they have been identified. In practice the phrase "you are radar identified" implies that you are allowed to enter the airspace (obviously this only applies to commercial/scheduled traffic - for GA movements another phrase quickly follows asking to stay clear of controlled airspace and remain VFR)