Pope Frank and Refugees

robindch

Remember Pope Frank's offer to to take two refugee families into the Vatican, and his instructions to all parishes in Europe to host families also? Well, he's taken one large step past that...

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/09/14/pope-warns-religious-orders-take-in-refugees-or-pay-taxes-on-your-property/

...and said that religious orders who use their large properties to earn cash to support themselves, should start paying taxes. The original radio interview is here.

Pope Frank wrote:

But this is a serious subject, because there is also the temptation of the god money. Some religious orders say “no, now that the convent is empty we are going to make a hotel and we can have guests, and support ourselves that way, or make money”. Well, if that is what you want to do, then pay taxes! A religious school is tax-exempt because it is religious, but if it is functioning as a hotel, then it should pay taxes just like its neighbour. Otherwise it is not fair business.

Does anybody know of any religious places in Ireland which take in paying guests?

El_Duderino 09

robindch wrote:

Does anybody know of any religious places in Ireland which take in paying guests?

The Cistercian monastery in Roscrea offers accommodation but I think it's more like charity to a weary traveller than a hotel. Guests can make a donation but I doubt it makes money.

Fair play Frank.

Peregrinus

I think there'd be a distinction between (a) a monastic community which welcomes visitors to the community as guests and provides them with hospitality, and (b) a monastic community supported by investments which include a hotel.

There's a few of the former kind in Ireland, but I don't know of any of the latter kind. And, if there are any of the latter kind, they would already be subject to tax in Ireland under existing law.

Churches are charitable, and therefore exempt from income tax, but for-profit business are not charitable and not exempt. They don't become charitable or exempt merely because they are owned by charities. Veritas Publications, for example, is not a charity and is subject to tax in the usual way.

I think Italian law is different, and these institutions have escaped Italian tax up to now, leading to understandable protests from rival, less churchy, hotel operators. And of course one of the many hats that Frank wears is Primate of Italy; I think his comments are probably directed at that situation.

Cabaal

Seems right, if a religious order is running an operation like that it certainly should pay tax.

Personally I think Ireland should copy Germany in relation to funding religious orders, a catholic etc pays a percentage of their wage as a tax towards the church and in exchange they get to use church for births, deaths and marriages etc. It also ensures the church gets money to keep its self going.

Michael OBrien

IF anything Francis says comes to pass in any meaningful way, then I give his statements a thumbs up. However I am guessing that his minions will 'explain' what Francis actually means and it will be a lot less groundbreaking than everyone thinks.
The catholic church has billions saved and invested, even ignoring the properties, the Vatican is hardly tasking itself with 2 families.
It is cheap publicity for the church, which may end up with very little change in the long run.
I know they have billions because I know people that worked in a major investment company that catered for the vatican finances. I guarantee that money will never ever go to the abuse victims, let alone refugees.

Cabaal

Michael OBrien wrote: »

I know they have billions because I know people that worked in a major investment company that catered for the vatican finances. I guarantee that money will never ever go to the abuse victims, let alone refugees.

Its well documented they have billions to be fair, anyone that thinks the Vatican will use said billions is only kidding themselves.

The only way abuse victims are going to get money from them is if they actually broke into the banks holding the Vaticans wealth.

Nodin

Cabaal wrote: »

Its well documented they have billions to be fair, anyone that thinks the Vatican will use said billions is only kidding themselves.

The only way abuse victims are going to get money from them is if they actually broke into the banks holding the Vaticans wealth.

....and manage to defeat the three headed beast that defends them.

Peregrinus

Michael OBrien wrote: »

IF anything Francis says comes to pass in any meaningful way, then I give his statements a thumbs up. However I am guessing that his minions will 'explain' what Francis actually means and it will be a lot less groundbreaking than everyone thinks.

I don't think this statement is really directed at the monks and nuns running these hotels. They don't pay tax because, under Italian law, they have no tax liability. That's a matter of controversy in Italy; there are calls for the law to be amended and, for all I know, there may be active proposals for amendment.

Whether the law will be amended or not isn't a decision that will or can be taken by the monks and the nuns; it will be taken by the Italian parliament. Obviously the days when Popes could simply tell the Italian Parliament what to do and they would do it (if those days ever existed) are gone. So it would be neither wise nor proper for Frank to tell the Italian Parliament "amend the law!" What he is doing here, though, is signalling his support for such an amendment, and also the terms on which it will get his support (tax hotels, not schools). That signal is mainly directed at the parliamentarians; to a lesser extent to priors, abbots, etc to indicate that if they oppose this measure they will not have his support and will be putting themselves at odds with his position.

El_Duderino 09

I just listened to an excellent podcast about Francis. It's a Fresh Air podcast called 'how pope Frances is changing the tone of the church'.

Its with a guy who wrote a book about Francis so it's more of an overall look at his approach to the papacy. They didn't talk about this and tax story or the refugees but the story of Frank's handling of the Vatican bank is fascinating. I thought it was a fairly balanced and informative account.

robindch

Well, Frank has taken in one family. A christian family. Would be nice if he'd taken in adherents of some other metaphysical belief system, but hey, it's a good start all the same.

http://www.thejournal.ie/pope-francis-family-2338926-Sep2015/

...waits, with more hope than expectation, for the pitter-poatter of the local religious to follow his gracious lead...

recedite

Angela Merkel has invited "quite a lot" of them to the EU though.
Here she suggests that instead of complaining about Islamicisation in Europe, people should instead "go to church once in a while" and "become a tad more versed in the bible.... As Christians we should reach out and open a dialogue.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_8kc19DL70

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_8kc19DL70

Hotblack Desiato

"Our bullshit is better than your bullshit" :rolleyes: