New JC time and teacher allocation

Red Belly

Am I missing something or will the classes off given to full-time teachers be "lost" to schools as teacher allocation?

A school with 40 full-time teachers effectively loses 40 teaching periods per week. This is the equivalent of a loss of about 8 senior cycle teaching groups, I.e subjects. This will compel principals to favour 30 class max size subjects over practicals. For teachers this means that what they gain in terms of time for new work they will lose by having bigger classes across the board. For students this means bigger classes, less subject options, esp at Senior Cycle, and less individual attention from teachers who have bigger classes to manage and more imperative to administer assessments than offer extra voluntary tuition, catch-up sessions and extra-curricular.

In my view, this will only work if there are significant improvements in PTR across the board - unless I've missed something. Our unions are on the verge of selling out their memberships, but also, our schools and our students. Don't get me wrong, I'm largely in favour of the proposed reforms including the assessment elements teachers seem to be most concerned about. But this can't be done on the cheap. Sooner or later the philosophy of "do more with less" inevitably leads to doing less with less and it seems to me that all proposed reforms are based on the premise that public servants, including teachers are effectively on the doss all the time and therefore if we just make them work harder we'll save a fortune. This view is BS, and in my experience true of only about 1% of public servants.

Simple economics folks, in the new proposals where is the extra money? Teachers get time off but the state doesn't pay out extra-so who really loses/gains?

RB

Jamfa

Have a read of Nuacht: http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/ASTI_Nuacht_2_KD_FINAL_01.PDF
"The reduction in class contact / teaching time will create a requirement for approximately 800 new teaching jobs."

acequion

Red Belly wrote: »

Am I missing something or will the classes off given to full-time teachers be "lost" to schools as teacher allocation?

A school with 40 full-time teachers effectively loses 40 teaching periods per week. This is the equivalent of a loss of about 8 senior cycle teaching groups, I.e subjects. This will compel principals to favour 30 class max size subjects over practicals. For teachers this means that what they gain in terms of time for new work they will lose by having bigger classes across the board. For students this means bigger classes, less subject options, esp at Senior Cycle, and less individual attention from teachers who have bigger classes to manage and more imperative to administer assessments than offer extra voluntary tuition, catch-up sessions and extra-curricular.

In my view, this will only work if there are significant improvements in PTR across the board - unless I've missed something. Our unions are on the verge of selling out their memberships, but also, our schools and our students. Don't get me wrong, I'm largely in favour of the proposed reforms including the assessment elements teachers seem to be most concerned about. But this can't be done on the cheap. Sooner or later the philosophy of "do more with less" inevitably leads to doing less with less and it seems to me that all proposed reforms are based on the premise that public servants, including teachers are effectively on the doss all the time and therefore if we just make them work harder we'll save a fortune. This view is BS, and in my experience true of only about 1% of public servants.

Simple economics folks, in the new proposals where is the extra money? Teachers get time off but the state doesn't pay out extra-so who really loses/gains?

RB

I think you've already worked it out. Teachers and students lose,state gains. A net state gain by economising on state exams was always the objective.

There is still time to work out a proper compromise which overhauls the JC without endangering education.

But for that it will be necessary to vote No to the current proposals.

acequion

Jamfa wrote: »

Have a read of Nuacht: http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/ASTI_Nuacht_2_KD_FINAL_01.PDF
"The reduction in class contact / teaching time will create a requirement for approximately 800 new teaching jobs."

And do you seriously think they'll get filled?

rainbowtrout

Even if they are filled, the class taken off each timetable comes from a wide variety of subject areas.

Also, isn't the class to be given to teachers with JC classes? I'll have to read the documentation again, but is it being given across the board? Is it if you have a class in junior cycle, or is it if you have a class in third year (or perhaps second year given that the continuous assessment is supposed to be over two years in English).

Will a teacher who has for arguments sake has two third year classes and two second year classes on their timetable in two subject areas, be expected to do the same amount of CA as the teacher who has one third year group on their timetable?

Will there be teachers who are the only teachers of their subject in a school, who will be presented with a timetable of 22 hours anyway because that is the number of hours available in their subject (e.g. Art, Music, Metalwork, Home Ec, German etc), and just told to get on with it or be given some platitudes about being freed up when necessary?


So many questions...

Red Belly

acequion wrote: »

And do you seriously think they'll get filled?

I can find absolutely nothing in the docs we'll be balloted on to suggest there will be compensation to schools for the teaching time lost to the proposals. We are not being balloted on an ASTI newsletter.

Why do we so undervalue our core work in these negotiations? We're teachers, trained to teach. Why is it clerical work, extra-curricular work etc that seems to be treated as more valuable than teaching? Teachers will end up doing the bureaucratic tasks of compiling different assessments into final results that is currently being done by clerical/admin staff in Athlone. The time they should be teaching is lost to schools and students. We will be paying professional teacher salary rates for routine admin work. Like paying a fully qualified mechanic a mechanic's rate to wash your car. A monumental waste if everyone's skills, money and resources.

Jamfa

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Even if they are filled, the class taken off each timetable comes from a wide variety of subject areas.

Also, isn't the class to be given to teachers with JC classes? I'll have to read the documentation again, but is it being given across the board? Is it if you have a class in junior cycle, or is it if you have a class in third year (or perhaps second year given that the continuous assessment is supposed to be over two years in English).

Will a teacher who has for arguments sake has two third year classes and two second year classes on their timetable in two subject areas, be expected to do the same amount of CA as the teacher who has one third year group on their timetable?

Will there be teachers who are the only teachers of their subject in a school, who will be presented with a timetable of 22 hours anyway because that is the number of hours available in their subject (e.g. Art, Music, Metalwork, Home Ec, German etc), and just told to get on with it or be given some platitudes about being freed up when necessary?


So many questions...

The 22 hours less teaching time was a major concession by the DES given that the original Framework had no mention of any allowance. The students will still have the same amount of class time (28 hours min) so around 800 new teaching posts will need to be created. There is an implementation group being set up to closely monitor the resources & capacity issues.
A 2 hour department meeting around Christmas time & May to discuss student work in CBAs is hardly a major imposition. Generally speaking most subject departments would hold 2 hour dept meetings around that time.
The 40 minutes a week less teaching to prepare for these twice yearly meetings seems like a decent deal to me. The exams & assessment task will be set & marked externally by the SEC & stand alone so therefore involve no extra work for teachers. The placards on the strike days talked about equity & fairness in relation to student assessment & the unions were successful in negotiating a major climb down by the Minister. If we did vote no & went on strike again what would our placards now say?

acequion

Red Belly wrote: »

I can find absolutely nothing in the docs we'll be balloted on to suggest there will be compensation to schools for the teaching time lost to the proposals. We are not being balloted on an ASTI newsletter.

Why do we so undervalue our core work in these negotiations? We're teachers, trained to teach. Why is it clerical work, extra-curricular work etc that seems to be treated as more valuable than teaching? Teachers will end up doing the bureaucratic tasks of compiling different assessments into final results that is currently being done by clerical/admin staff in Athlone. The time they should be teaching is lost to schools and students. We will be paying professional teacher salary rates for routine admin work. Like paying a fully qualified mechanic a mechanic's rate to wash your car. A monumental waste if everyone's skills, money and resources.

And why do we undervalue our professional worth by constantly enabling a sell out?

Our unions are at best weak,at worst serving another master. But we are enablers by voting in each absurd proposal. If we would only oppose en masse the constant deterioration and devaluing of our profession then the unions might actually start to fight for us again.

History Queen

Jamfa wrote: »

The 22 hours less teaching time was a major concession by the DES given that the original Framework had no mention of any allowance. The students will still have the same amount of class time (28 hours min) so around 800 new teaching posts will need to be created. There is an implementation group being set up to closely monitor the resources & capacity issues.
A 2 hour department meeting around Christmas time & May to discuss student work in CBAs is hardly a major imposition. Generally speaking most subject departments would hold 2 hour dept meetings around that time.
The 40 minutes a week less teaching to prepare for these twice yearly meetings seems like a decent deal to me. The exams & assessment task will be set & marked externally by the SEC & stand alone so therefore involve no extra work for teachers. The placards on the strike days talked about equity & fairness in relation to student assessment & the unions were successful in negotiating a major climb down by the Minister. If we did vote no & went on strike again what would our placards now say?

Well my placard would say "Turkeys don't vote for Christmas" but I don't make those decisions.

In all seriousness though the implementation of the new JC has been an unmitigated disaster and no amount of placating will make up for the fact that we have students over one third of the way through a course that is badly designed and only partially implemented.

If Ruairi Quinn had bothered to engage with educators correctly and take the time to design a well thought out course we may not be in this mess.... but no... he was too busy tring to make a legacy for himself... well he achieved that.... he's made an unholy mess of the education system and will go down in history with at least a generation of teachers as one of the most inept, self-serving and foolish Ministers to ever serve in The DES.

To let his ego damage the once respected education system is bad enough never mind his reprehensible treatment of the teaching profession.

Red Belly

Jamfa wrote: »

The students will still have the same amount of class time (28 hours min) so around 800 new teaching posts will need to be created

I see nothing in the docs to suggest this is the case. Students will continue to have 28 hrs tuition alright but the pool of teaching hours available to implement this is reduced by 40mins per teacher. Therefore bigger classes, less subjects. Maybe about 800 extra teachers would cover it but where are they in the docs we're voting on?

Jamfa

Red Belly wrote: »

I see nothing in the docs to suggest this is the case. Students will continue to have 28 hrs tuition alright but the pool of teaching hours available to implement this is reduced by 40mins per teacher. Therefore bigger classes, less subjects. Maybe about 800 extra teachers would cover it but where are they in the docs we're voting on?

It's in the ASTI docs & they negotiated with the DES. If there was a no vote it is the ASTI who will have to go back to the DES and renegotiate what? They made a joint agreement already subject to resources and the implementation committee is to oversee that. The DES has offered 40 mins a week less teaching, days of training including a full day devoted to whole school training. These are successes and make striking again around the JC very difficult. Meanwhile the real issue of Haddington Road etc gets very little focus.

Red Belly

Jamfa wrote: »

It's in the ASTI docs & they negotiated with the DES

It's in the ASTI newsletter, but we're not voting to accept/reject an ASTI newsletter. It's not mentioned in the docs we're actually voting on.

deiseindublin

TUI are starting meetings in 2 weeks or so on on LRA. At least they're recommending rejection of it.

Lansdowne Road Agreement information meetings

Regional information meetings on Lansdowne Road Agreement (LRA) proposals will take place in the coming weeks.

TUI will be recommending that members reject the proposals – a special edition of TUI News will issue to members in advance of the ballot.

Ballot papers will be posted from TUI Head Office on Thursday, 24th of September 2015 to be returned to auditors Deloitte by 5pm on Friday, 9th October 2015.

Tea/coffee and sandwiches will be served from 7pm and all meetings will commence at 7.30pm.

DATE/DAY VENUE
Wednesday 16th September Carrick-on-Shannon, Education Centre
Wednesday 16th September Cork, Clayton Silversprings Hotel
Thursday 17th September Navan, Ardboyne Hotel
Thursday 17th September Athlone, Education Centre
Tuesday 22nd September Limerick, South Court Hotel
Tuesday 22nd September Waterford, The Tower Hotel
Wednesday 23rd September Letterkenny, Mount Errigal Hotel
Wednesday 23rd September Dublin, Green Isle Hotel

MacGyver007

Jamfa wrote: »

Have a read of Nuacht: http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/ASTI_Nuacht_2_KD_FINAL_01.PDF
"The reduction in class contact / teaching time will create a requirement for approximately 800 new teaching jobs."

This very point was raised at an ASTI information meeting recently. This figure of 800 new teaching jobs is just an estimate and is not formally in writing on any Dept. document anywhere.

deiseindublin

I wish the ASTI (or TUI) wouldn't quote the figure so.

evolving_doors

If its rejected then it will be spun by the minister that teachers turned down 800 jobs...