Heating Overhaul.

Vote 4 Pedro

Hi all,
We are about to do a complete heating overhaul in our bungalow, it was built in 2004, it's a 2023 sq. ft. timber framed bungalow with an additional 400 sq. ft. partially converted loft space, basic spec. is it has the folding stairs, plastered out, carpeted room with one double rad up there, mainly used for storage.

I know it wont be straight forward and I'm looking for advice as to avoid the mistakes and pitfalls if possible.


At the moment we have a Firerbird 90/s in the utility room, standard copper cylinder with the green foam on it, water and rads are all on the same loop,
and a flue less gas fire (Catalytic) in the sitting room. This will be coming out and the stove will be in it's place. I plan on putting some type of thin stonework onto the wall behind the stove for effect.
The pipework for all the rads are under the concrete floor but the existing pipework for the boiler and water cylinder can be got at by lifting the utility floor which is timber and easy to lift.

We want to get a new more efficient boiler to go outside,
larger water cylinder as we need more hot water - possibly stainless steel ?
and a stove with boiler, fitted in sitting room (14ft.x14ft.) with a vaulted ceiling.
all linked / fitted to give us the best option possible.
We have 14 Rads (13 plus a towel rad)
Is it worth going for the grant some people have said it can make things very complicated and others have said to go for it.

I know it wont be the simplest install with it been a timber framed but i'm sure it can be done.

I'm very confused as to the different stoves manufacturers / makes to avoid and we want a good quality stove that would hopefully last.

Any help, recommendations or idea of cost etc. would be appreciated.

Many Thanks

roy rodgers

Control of the heating is so important. The fact you have a very sizable house it would make more sense to go for the grant and get proper controls added to the heating system.
I'd go for a minimum of a 3 zone system. I haven't come across a system yet that couldn't be done And we'll worth getting done.
As for the stove I personally prefer one without a boiler as I find the ones with the boiler tend to next and awful lot of flue to get the heat into the room and also you would find it very hard to heat 14 rads with a stove. I'd looking into solar before I'd put a stove in with a boiler.
Cost of the heating up grade with new boiler heating controls and new cylinder would be around 4000 to 5000. Install of a stove with boiler could be another 12 to 1800 euro. Stove would probably cost another 800 to 1000 and flue liner 500.

sky6

I'd definitely install solar Water Heating along with a 300 ltr. Thermal store. Especially if you have Children in the House. As for installing a stove in a Bungalow. This is not straight forward and requires quite a bit of planning and know how. Where is the cold Water Tank in the house at present, and in relation to the proposed Stove location. Where is the Cyl now and where do you intend to locate the new Cyl. The base of the Cyl should be level or higher than the top of the Stove. A stove with a boiler has to rise all the way to the Cylinder. Make sure to use all four outlets on the Stove if you get one. You'll also need something like a heat genie to integrate the various heat sources.
In my experience It's difficult to adequately heat a Bungalow using only a Stove because of the length of Run to the furthest Rads. It will work but you'll be loading it with Fuel regularly. This is why you should go for a thermal store.
It can be done but only safely by someone with the know how and experience.

Vote 4 Pedro

Reading the replies I'm starting to question if the boiler stove is the best idea for us,
We are a family of four inc. two teenagers.
If we get a decent boiler, power flush the system and get a large water cylinder might we be as well off going for just a room heater stove ?

We live near Athenry, County Galway and there is turf available cheap enough but we don't have our own source of fuel so we would be buying wood, Turf, Coal etc.
The 2 teenagers seem to be in the shower an awful lot so we need a decent amount of hot water. We also have a large bath and at the moment we can't get a decent level of hot water in it to really enjoy it.

I'm starting to think that been out most days at work and getting home around 6.45 would we be lighting the stove to get hot water or would we just go for the easy option and use the boiler ? other days I might be home all day and I'm sure I would light it.
I plan on doing the work before winter sets in but I'm so unsure what I need.

The new boiler is definite but I have no idea what boiler to go for, Boiler manufacture and size etc. I'm looking for a decent one that would suit our needs.
Water cylinder, I've asked a few plumbers and in a few merchants but all have told me to stay away from the stainless steel type but without much if any reason given, I was looking at the ACV smart cylinders but unsure if this is the right thing to be looking at.

The stove could be a nice feature and if it's not a boiler version there would be a lot more choice especially the more modern looking ones.
I would like to get a decent plumber to go though things with me but I don't know or have any experience of any good plumbers as I'm not from this area.
My head is wrecked

Calahonda52

forget about:
putting a more efficient boiler out side: complete madness
forget about back-boiler stoves for reasons elucidated v clearly by RR
forget about solar thermal
forget about larger tank just for the dirty teens

These are all unnecessary fixed cost considerations that fail miserably to look at lifestyle over at the longer term.

Look at the needs for HW, why not get a combi boiler and dump the HW cylinder.

The teens wont always be there so no point in having a big tank there as a memory to their current predilections

There is mega work with a stove and a compulsion to use it:
consider a nice wood pellet stove that wood look well and be easy to use with little ash and good comfort in that room where u and herself can sit in the reflected glory of your then v successful children.

Dtp1979

Calahonda52 wrote: »

forget about:
putting a more efficient boiler out side: complete madness
forget about back-boiler stoves for reasons elucidated v clearly by RR
forget about solar thermal
forget about larger tank just for the dirty teens

These are all unnecessary fixed cost considerations that fail miserably to look at lifestyle over at the longer term.

Look at the needs for HW, why not get a combi boiler and dump the HW cylinder.

The teens wont always be there so no point in having a big tank there as a memory to their current predilections

There is mega work with a stove and a compulsion to use it:
consider a nice wood pellet stove that wood look well and be easy to use with little ash and good comfort in that room where u and herself can sit in the reflected glory of your then v successful children.

How can you suggest a combi when you don't know the hot water demand of the house?? From what I read they have AT LEAST one very large bath, one shower, hand basin and kitchen sink. More than likely an ensuite so add another shower and basin and that's steer me away from a combi

Vote 4 Pedro

Yes We have main bathroom Inc power show and the bath is quite large, en suite Inc. power shower, utility bathroom, we use or would like to use the bath more often.

Dtp1979

Vote 4 Pedro wrote: »

Yes We have main bathroom Inc power show and the bath is quite large, en suite Inc. power shower, utility bathroom, we use or would like to use the bath more often.

Yea a combi isn't the way to go then.

Calahonda52

Dtp1979 wrote: »

How can you suggest a combi when you don't know the hot water demand of the house?? From what I read they have AT LEAST one very large bath, one shower, hand basin and kitchen sink. More than likely an ensuite so add another shower and basin and that's steer me away from a combi

The current demand profile is transient at best and they are hardly all going to be using all the things you list there together.
A bit of scheduling will help

There is absolutely no reason to Capex a project for max demand in such a case. This is my main argument here. Peak load demand: nonsense

This is what is done with Solar Thermal all the time and when the birds have flown, the units are then wasted

Dtp1979

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The current demand profile is transient at best and they are hardly all going to be using all the things you list there together.
A bit of scheduling will help

There is absolutely no reason to Capex a project for max demand in such a case. This is my main argument here. Peak load demand: nonsense

This is what is done with Solar Thermal all the time and when the birds have flown, the units are then wasted

Don't be silly. You can't say that everything won't be used at once.

Calahonda52

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Don't be silly. You can't say that everything won't be used at once.

As BO said: yes I can:D
And whats more, yes I will.

No need to pander to the petulance of preening teens
.
Just do the peak load demand numbers here:
what will you end up with:
a HW cylinder maybe 5,000 litres and an efficient boiler outside: now that is silly


Crunch the Capex numbers: he might be better off putting a second combi in rather than all that other nonsense he listed.

Do the math, taking a 15 year life for the boilers and map that against house occupancy profile over the same period.

Dtp1979

Calahonda52 wrote: »

As BO said: yes I can:D
And whats more, yes I will.

No need to pander to the petulance of preening teens
.
Just do the peak load demand numbers here:
what will you end up with:
a HW cylinder maybe 5,000 litres and an efficient boiler outside: now that is silly


Crunch the Capex numbers: he might be better off putting a second combi in rather than all that other nonsense he listed.

Do the math, taking a 15 year life for the boilers and map that against house occupancy profile over the same period.

2 combis in one house. Now that's a first.
I'm my opinion op, install a cylinder with a rapid recovery cylinder. Therefore the reheat time will be around 15mins. So you won't need a huge 5,000 litre cylinder or anything like it. 150 litre would probably do. Make sure it's A rated and all pipes are lagged coming off it. Fit a gas boiler with weather compensation too and this would be your most economic solution

Calahonda52

Calahonda52 wrote: »

As BO said: yes I can:D
And whats more, yes I will.

No need to pander to the petulance of preening teens
.
Just do the peak load demand numbers here:
what will you end up with:
a HW cylinder maybe 5,000 litres and an efficient boiler outside: now that is silly


Crunch the Capex numbers: he might be better off putting a second combi in rather than all that other nonsense he listed.

Do the math, taking a 15 year life for the boilers and map that against house occupancy profile over the same period.

Peak load is a major factor when designing hot water requirements, to have a system that cannot meet this can and does lead to a negative outcome.

A combi can be used as part of the solution to the OPs hot water requirement but would have to be supplemented by a secondary source ie.. electric showers.

I wouldn't recommend a combi in this instance as the installation requires attention to detail often overlooked by the installer leading to long draw offs, slow temperture adjustment (due to long draw offs), regimented hot tap usage so nobody gets burnt in the shower, long story short fitting a combi often ends in tears in these circumstances.

If it were my home id fit a unvented cylinder (as above)possibly a twin coil for increased reheat times and as a back up for if ever solar is a better option, I'd have a blending valve on the cylinder so I could increase the stored hot water temperture to make it go further if I have guests, I'd have a secondary return giving instant hot water when I choose to have it, I'd have the comfort of having a electric immersion as back up also it's easier to get the installation of a unvented cylinder right as opposed to a combi.