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ATH First Round Match 5 - Lord TSC vs GerryBBadd

  • 09-09-2015 10:49am
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭

    Next up is everyone favourtite Soccer mod, LORD TSC taking on Gerry B Badd, who is probably the man to beat after his showing last year.

    Simplified version of the rules:
    I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

    *you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

    *You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

    see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

    Q5 : Many angles in WWF/WWE over the years have been dropped abruptly or quietly phased out. Which one angle that was dropped would you have liked to have seen play out. Why do you think that angle had so much potential and how would you have liked to see it go?

    After your first post, why would your choice be better than your opponents?

    Good luck lads!

    Which angle played out better? 11 votes

    GerryBBadd - Mr Kennedys Push/Vinces Death
    0% 0 votes
    Lord TSC - Cesaro joins forces with Heyman
    100% 11 votes


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,301 ✭✭✭✭gerrybbadd

    There have been many angles down through the years, that ended with no explanation whatsoever, but the one that I think had the most potential, was that of Mr. Kennedy being revealed as Mr. McMahon's illegitimate son.


    This angle in itself was changed from the original plan, where Vince's limo was blown up - which as we know, was dropped due to the Benoit situation. The Mr. Kennedy angle got changed, and eventually dropped, because Ken managed to get himself a Wellness Violation, and in the end, what had the potential to be a HUGE angle, got turned into a comedy spot, where, Hornswaggle was revealed to be Vince's son instead.

    So, originally, what was intended to happen was, Vince's limo gets blown sky high. Linda would be revealed to be the murderer at a later date, and she would be arrested. There would then be an "aired Will reading" some weeks later, read by Mr. McMahon himself, where he leaves full control of the WWE to his "illegitimate son" Mr. Kennedy. Kennedy would then end up feuding with Triple H (who would reveal at that time he was married for reals to Steph), for control of the company, with the title in the picture, to culminate at Wrestlemania that year.

    Around about the time this angle was due to be played out, Kennedy was getting a huge push, he had the proverbial rocket strapped to him. He had beaten several former World champions, was featured prominently on TV, and even was selected to star in a movie, Behind Enemy Lines, Colombia. He had been a US Champ, and was very unfortunate to lose his Money in the Bank briefcase to Edge (due to an injury that was thought more severe than it really was).

    So, Kennedy was already getting to be a big deal. This angle would have pushed him over the top. Where he would still be today, had it played out fully. He'd be amongst the top names, alongside Randy Orton (Who I blame for Ken's release), Cena, Sheamus, etc. Kennedy was more than competent in the ring, great on the mic, and had unbelievable charisma. A guy like this just doesn;t come along every day.

    I'm sure that, if the angle had have played out, Ken would be well on his way to a Hall of Fame spot, no doubt having had multiple title reigns. He may even have had more stroke backstage, and maybe he wouldn't have been released.

    So, instead of what was potentially a months long angle, with several high profile matches, culminating in a Wrestlemania Main event, for control of the company, pitting the Uber heel Kennedy, against the Hero HHH, we ended up with Mr. McMahon storyline suspending Ken for "Impersonating a McMahon" on Raw, to try to explain away his Wellness suspension, and we ended up with Hornswaggle being McMahon's son in a series of comedy skits. What a waste!

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC

    I decided to choose a story that the audience seemed thrilled about at first, but which WWE quickly bungled before letting it phase out, damaging all characters involved in the process.

    Namely: Cesaro joins forces with Heyman.

    Cesaro was coming off the back of a big win at Wrestlemania, and in front of a hot crowd, he looked to be on track to be one of the biggest babyfaces in the company. The crowd wanted to get behind him, and vocalised that. On the Raw following his big moment, he announces himself as “A Paul Heyman Guy”. The crowd ate it up, and the ideas started running wild. The segment which joined the two seemed to be booked as if Cesaro would still be a face, albeit with Heyman in toe, but that would seem to have been to facilitate a clash between clients. By and large, it looked like an attempt to hook Cesaro into a story with Brock; the man who slayed the giant at Mania going against the One in Twenty One and One. Putting Cesaro with the man who would take de facto responsibility for Taker’s streak ending, who really was THE biggest heel at that moment, and who excelled in being a mouth piece for Brock Lesnar, seemed like a rocket to strap to Swiss man. Would Brock have been annoyed that his manager was spending more time with Cesaro? Would Cesaro want to step out of Brock's shadow? Would Heyman help lead Cesaro forward in his career, with or without Brock's involvement? Would Cesaro and Brock team up? If not, whose side would Heyman take? Could Cesaro swing Brock?

    But this is WWE, so whatever the idea was on that night, it seemed to vanish pretty quickly. Heyman came out and started talking about Brock Lesnar, and absolutely nothing else. Cesaro started losing matches. And then on a random Raw, Cesaro walked out sans Heyman, and the commentators briefly mentioned that they had a falling out, and that was the end of their association. No more threads pointing towards a top level run against one of the biggest stars of the last 20 years in Brock Lesnar. The angle fizzled out and was dropped, and the character ended up worse than before it started.

    The reason I chose this story is that there’s not often the crowd get behind someone and say “We like this guy, make him a star”. In the run up to Mania and the time shortly after, the crowd were hungry to turn Cesaro into a major star. It was an angle that the crowd got behind quickly, and unfortunately, WWE never seemed to get that invested, opting instead of push Cesaro to the back, little more than an excuse for Heyman to appear on TV. This was an angle the crowd seemed happy to get behind, until WWE removed any reason for them too before dropping the angle and jobbing out Cesaro.

    Another reason I choose this story, as opposed to the Kennedy one mentioned above, is quite simple; the “Kennedy is Vince’s son” was not a story dropped by WWE for the fun of it, because they got bored or they didn’t think it would work. Kennedy got suspended. The reason for the stories being dropped should be considered in this instance; Kennedy nuked his own storyline by publically declaring he was clean days before he was proven not to be. As soon as he got caught in the steroids scandal, WWE had to drop the story. It wasn’t an angle dropped because of a short attention span.

    Gerry ponders on the idea of Kennedy going on a stellar run and a Hall-of-Fame-Worthy career. But the reality is that Kennedy himself seems a bit of a walking problem; he never set the world on fire in TNA either. Cesaro, on the other hand, seems a great worker on multiple fronts; He’s got a great look, great in-ring ability, and he’s heavily marketable. When given the chance to be a babyface, the crowd eat him up and get behind him in a big way. His big problem, according to detractors, is that he has no “charisma”; something the dropped angle with Heyman could have lended him. An allegence with Heyman could have added that final feather to his cap. And the angle teased could have led to him to the creation of a genuine world class level superstar.

    Luckily, Cesaro is still in a position to have the chance to get a top level push, in spite of mismanagement. Anderson has seemingly burned bridges with WWE and has an on/off relationship with TNA. Anderson’s personality was always going to be an issue with regards pushes, stories and potential follow throughs. Had the idea been proposed, for instance, that someone else could have taken Kennedy's place and the story still run in the same direction (as opposed a comedy one), I'd have agreed to an extent. But the reason that angle was dropped in the manner it was came down, in part, to a lack of faith in Kennedy to recover, something which largely came true.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,301 ✭✭✭✭gerrybbadd

    I feel my example with Kennedy works so much better, because of the potential involved for the future. Ken did self-destruct, and have a wellness violation, which ended the storyline. But, there was nothing to stop them postponing the storyline until his return, they instead chose to drop it.

    Look at Randy Orton, all the violations he has had, and look at his standing in the company - he's all but unaffected. Ken was going to be a huge star, and this storyline would have been his catalyst to the top.

    I like your example Lord TSC, Cesaro is my favourite wrestler at the minute. However, did he need Heyman to get ahead? No. Did he need Zeb Colter before him to get ahead? - no. In fact, while he had been over as part of the real Americans, I think putting him with Heyman actually damaged him, and they were right to end their association.

    You see, Cesaro is now on the right path. He's tearing it up in the ring, and has had several possible match of the year contests in both NXT and WWE. He's now doing all the right things, and the fans love him for it. And he's done it without the need for a mouthpiece.

    Heyman works with 2 guys - Lesnar and Punk. Top guys already. And he's gold by their side. His record with the mid carders though - not so stellar. Just ask Curtis Axel. Or Ryback.

    So while I feel your example is a good one, I don't think it tops mine. Kennedy's rise to the top, to greatness, was wrapped up in this story. However, Cesaro didn't need Heyman. And his best days are yet to come, independent of an association with Heyman. Cesaro will be a star. For years to come.

    Ken, well, he's done okay for himself, down in TNA. But if he ever returned to the WWE, all that would be wiped clean from the slate. He'd be returning from parts unknown.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC

    Ken did self-destruct, and have a wellness violation, which ended the storyline. But, there was nothing to stop them postponing the storyline until his return, they instead chose to drop it.

    That they chose to drop it so completely is the crux of the point though; had they had faith in Kennedy to recover, they would have held the storyline for him. But they didn't trust him after that stage, in any shape or form. Kennedy's stock dropped and he never seemed able to bring it back up. They never truly followed up with another attempt to push Kennedy hard; he came back after his suspension, semi-feuded with Cena before injuring him, and then he just drifted through matches until the Orton incident, and his release.

    Cesaro, on the other hand, was someone who did manage to recover from a poorly executed angle. You're right, Heyman's record with midcarders isn't stellar, but thats because when he's put with them, WWE didn't treat the "clients" as anything other than midcarders, often designed simply to further other feuds or characters (Cesaro/Brock, Ryback/Punk). With many of Heyman's non-successes, its been down to bad booking where they hint they want to push someone, but then never follow through.

    Had WWE seriously followed through on Cesaro/Heyman, then I have no doubt he would have been a massive superstar, and would have worked his way quickly into the main event scene. More importantly, with Heyman, he would have slotted in perfectly. Yes, many years later, he's being subjected to another revival. Of sorts. While his in-ring work is phenomenal, and the crowd are behind him, WWE aren't to a massive degree; he's continually losing, and hasn't had a proper win in a feud yet. And I believe that this is because, in spite of his in ring abilities, the higher powers don't trust him to lead the company due to the "lack of charisma"; he needs a mouth piece.

    Had WWE pulled the trigger properly, instead of half-assing it for a week and then shoving Cesaro to the background, Cesaro could have become a top player. That Cesaro still manages to get a great reaction, that he manages to reinvent himself as nessecary, and that he is still in the position to someday get that rocket strapped to him, is testiment to the fact he was someone who deserved the push years ago. In comparison, Kennedy seemed to constantly have issues; not just with Orton, not just with drugs, but with injuring Cena (which tied into the "sloppy in the ring" attitude the likes of Orton had as well) and with injuries as well (not just the MITB injury, but the 10 month one as well).

    The point I make is thus; in the time since our chosen angles, Kennedy's stock has continued to drop. He's not proven his ability to make it as a top guy. Cesaro's stock has remained in tact in spite of dropped angles and shoddy booking. Kennedy will never step foot back into a WWE ring, and if he did, it won't be as a top guy. Cesaro might still have a top level run in him, but its my belief that had he gotten the proper backing in 2011, he would have still been there today. Its my belief that in years to come, people will look back at Cesaro and say that WWE missed the chance to do big things with him, that he was a solid and reliable guy, who was just missing that one thing....that they nearly gave him, before dropping back quickly without giving him a chance to see what could have been.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,301 ✭✭✭✭gerrybbadd

    Lord TSC wrote: »

    Cesaro, on the other hand, was someone who did manage to recover from a poorly executed angle.

    This is exactly the point.

    The angle was poorly executed. Cesaro would have gotten ahead without Heyman by his side - it's an angle that was unnecessary. His best days are ahead of him yet. He didn't need the association with Heyman to excel.

    The angle had no potential anyhow. Everyone knows, Heyman, at the end of the day, is a Brock Lesnar guy. He may take on other clients, but he will only advocate for Brock Lesnar. Cesaro was put with Heyman as it was felt that he couldn't connect with an audience on the mic (as most wrestlers who cannot talk traditionally were). So, the angle was never going anywhere, and really, had no potential to develop into anything big (The King of Swing, c'mon now!)

    Kennedy's angle however, had all the potential in the world. This would have been a long running story arc, that would have been in the main spot on Raw each week, culminating in a Wrestlemania Main event that year. Ken would have been made into a bona fide star, and would have remained at the top for years to come (most likely would still be there in fact)

    The storyline would have involved all the very best aspects of WWE storytelling - and the feuds that would have been generated would have been must see. Vince has always wanted to have a family story line, where the control of WWE would be on the line, finishing at Wrestlemania - it's an idea that comes up quite regularly in planning Wrestlemania. This was the closest he had come to seeing this idea pan out. But the idea was dropped, and we never got to see it's conclusion.

    So to wrap up, Why should Kennedy's angle be voted for over Cesaro? Well, the Kennedy angle would have seen several months of Main Event matches, storylines in the main event spot on Raw, all culminating at Wrestlemania in the Main event. Kennedy in the process, would become the next big name, spoken of in the same way as Cena, Orton etc. The landscape of the WWE would have been forever changed.

    Cesaro was bundled with Paul Heyman, who stole him away from Zeb Colter. Why? Where was the potential? What was the expected outcome? Cesaro was fast becoming somebody the fans wanted to cheer - he was getting ahead by himself. He didn't need the rub from Heyman. This has been proved by his current standing in the company. And as i've said before, I truly believe his best days are ahead yet.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC

    The key word to all of this is "potential".

    To an extent, we have to look back with the benefit of hindsight. Kennedy's angle certainly had potential, but it got nixed not due to bad booking or a lack of interest. It got canned because Kennedy himself forced the end of the angle. That WWE moved on and didn't bother waiting for Kennedy showed the lack of trust, and that he then spent significant time injured and in the dog house shows that whatever potential was there for the angle, it was never going to get the chance to develop.

    Had Gerry argued that the angle itself should have been pushed to another wrestler, someone whom could have benefited from the push in Kennedy's place, I feel I would have agreed; had WWE not moved from Kennedy to Hornswoggle, but opted instead to strap the rocket to someone else, then yes, the angle would have been magnificent. But the arguement is that Kennedy himself was the man who deserved the push, not someone else, and that is flawed. Kennedy was his own worst enemy, something shown time and time again, both in WWE and TNA.

    Cesaro was someone the crowd wanted to get behind, and who was positioned perfectly for a top level run, with a built in story with Brock Lesnar. The potential to create a top star was astronomical, and wasn't nuked by Cesaro himself, but by WWE. Had WWE gotten behind Cesaro, then the angle would have moved forward without interruptions for drugs, for injuries, for attitude problems.

    Based on potential, a Cesaro push has far more upward mobility than a Kennedy push.
    Well, the Kennedy angle would have seen several months of Main Event matches, storylines in the main event spot on Raw, all culminating at Wrestlemania in the Main event. Kennedy in the process, would become the next big name, spoken of in the same way as Cena, Orton etc. The landscape of the WWE would have been forever changed.

    I believe that you could switch Kennedy's name with Cesaro just as easily and achieve the same results; top matches (with possible a better in ring worker), and the possibility of a big Mania match between Cesaro and Brock.

    This is ultimately about who had the most potential; Kennedy or Cesaro. Who, if WWE had gotten behind their character development properly, had the higher ceiling. And for me, there is only one answer, one winner.

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter

    Poll re-opened (bump) due to a tie which needs to be resolved. Get your votes in people

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe