Musings on EVs

BoatMad

I'm doing my maths on a possible leaf. It would be the 2016 version with the 30 kW battery.
I still see huge issues with EV policy in Ireland.

1. Domestic recharging is effectively limited in the majority to domestic levels of power. This means as battery capacity grows over the next 5 years ( Nissan expect it to double ) we'll never be able to charge them overnight ( never mind within the night rate band )

2. ESB Slow charging points are in effect useless , because with any sort of EV growth , we are going to see massive congestion for chargers , leaving aside the issue of being " iced ".

3, there seems to be no incentive to encourage the installation of charge points at workplaces. My wife who is a teacher , asked and was told to contact the local education board and do the "running" for it. Surely the PS work place should lead the way.

I wonder when private fast charge facilities come in, what we will play for a full charge ???

It's all very poorly thoughts out in my opinion.

cros13

1. This isn't really a big deal. You only need to charge a little bit more than your regular mileage overnight. Plenty of people with 85kWh Tesla Model S (that's double the capacity the 2nd gen Leaf is lightly to have) in the US charge on 110v 16Amp sockets at around half the rate our 13A 230v sockets can do. That's not theory... people are living with cars with those kind of capacities right now.

Remember you rarely charge from zero. I do on average around 110km a day. It takes a little over 2 hours to recover that mileage from my 32 amp socket. If I have a car with a 100kWh battery it's still going to take the same time because it's the same amount of power. Sure, the people who drive 500km a day are probably going to need a 22kW charger and three phase supply, but a 22kW charger doesn't cost much more than a 7.4kW and you only have to pay for the install of a three phase supply once.

Irish houses are wired largely based on Siemens' initial designs with quite a bit of typical german over engineering. ESB have also been very conservative with the grid connection. We're in a substantially better position with domestic wiring than the UK for example where a lot of older houses have ring wiring or aluminium wiring used to save on copper. There's no reason most Irish homes can't support two to three 32 Amp sockets without needing three phase. Beyond a 20kVA single phase supply we'd probably need to go for three phase for efficiency reasons. That's not an expensive proposition when a new supply is being installed (capital costs are about 20% above a single phase install). In fact in many of our fellow EU states a three phase domestic connection is standard.

EVSE are relatively simple, there's no reason an EVSE needs to be much more than €50 above the cost a standard outdoor socket once economies of scale kick in.

2. Yup, largely agree with you. So does the ESB... They've largely stopped installing those in favor of spending more money on rapids. The one exception is destination charging in Hotels, that's handy.

3. There's a program in NI to get public services building to install EVSE for employees. Even today battery capacity is at a point where workplace charging is a nice to have but hardly necessary.

Norway is probably a good guide for what private prices will look like, generally there it's 20c to 40c per kWh for a rapid charger, usually with a minimum charge or a small per charge fee. Worst case you'll see prices for a rapid charge nearing 70-80% of diesel to take you the same distance (ref: Chargemaster in the UK (they've since dropped their prices)). It's worth remembering that those kind of prices for public charging are not a big deal, 90% of your charging will be at home and mostly on the night rate for circa 8c per kWh.

Pricing for rapid charging is likely to drop over time as three effects kick in:

Amortisation of the fixed infrastructure
Reduced cost of new infrastructure (rapid charger pricing has gone from €50k per unit to €13-15k per unit in four years, there's no reason that trend won't continue, they're not complex devices)
Competition (it's worth noting that petrol stations make very little on fuel sales and often depend on revenue from the shop, rapid chargers give the same (if not more) opportunity to sell sandwiches to people)

BoatMad

I don't agree with your summary on point 1 and it's not what the various engineers in the ESB, that I know say. Most wiring to houses is underground d is severely limited in capacity , especially in urban housing estates. Re doing these is a massive job . You might also have a look at the costs of installing three phase at the moment, especially where the supply isn't convenient.

Again in relation to capacity , you miss the point.

Doubling or trebling the battery capacity will not lead to 2 or 3x range, it will lead to more " carefree " driving and full motorway speed etc. it will also tempt people to use the car more and recharge less ( in reality have less time to recharge ). We will see the rise of the single car EV family.

Since the laws of physics are immutable, what comes out of the battery must go back in. Attempting to extract 100kwh of energy from a domestic system is simply not going to fly

Ireland is actually in a worse case then say Germany , which habitually installs three phase, housing rings are limited to about 32 amps , which is why EVSEs are wired in direct . The USA is actually better as all houses have high capacity 220vac split phase supplies , specifically designed for high current applications

The single phase infrastructure is very close or beyond capacity in many places as any multimeter will show. This is a legacy of the rural electrification scheme. We did NOT install a high end system in reality ( Ardnacrushas capacity was exceeded within the first 5 years ) most of the systems planning was woefully inadequate as any ESB insider will tell you

Personally I see that home charging will not be a feature of future EVs. I predict the industry will adopt standardised auto swappable packs , which can be swapped out in minutes at a " filling" station

AA Roadwatch will then in time, be advising us to shop around between Varta, Excide etc and pundits will point out that the charges for battery refilling now exceeds what diesel cost in the " good auld days "

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I'm doing my maths on a possible leaf. It would be the 2016 version with the 30 kW battery.
I still see huge issues with EV policy in Ireland.

1. Domestic recharging is effectively limited in the majority to domestic levels of power. This means as battery capacity grows over the next 5 years ( Nissan expect it to double ) we'll never be able to charge them overnight ( never mind within the night rate band )

Remember Nissan have not officially announced the 30 Kwh battery so don't blame me if it doesn't arrive ! But the fact it showed up on the order list in the U.S is pretty good evidence it is coming soon !

Don't forget the 6.6 kw charger in the leaf, hopefully it won't be an option for the 30 Kwh battery.

Even a 100 Kwh battery can be charged in about 15 hours @6.6 kw or 30 at 3.3 Kw so that's 2-6 nights on night rate or just leave it charging at peak and night rate.

Think about this , most people drive less than 50 miles a day consuming around 10-12 Kwh leaving a staggering 88 Kwh sitting in the battery most days, even my 25-27 Kwh daily commute would leave 72 kwh in a 100 Kwh battery and a real wast if you ask me. 50-60 kwh tops would be much more than I need 98% of the time.

We need much faster charge times a lot more than using natural resources so wastefully just to cure range anxiety.

BoatMad wrote: »

2. ESB Slow charging points are in effect useless , because with any sort of EV growth , we are going to see massive congestion for chargers , leaving aside the issue of being " iced ".

The ESB will install more slow and fast chargers as needed when the rate of electrics grow, currently the sales so far this year amount to a pathetic 0.4 % of the market but still a lot better than last years EV sales.

When you think of it, once the ESB start to charge for the electricity you'll see a lot more people suddenly charge at home rather than go to the free chargers and when the 150-200 mile range electrics arrive there will not be as much of a demand for charge points but if ev sales explode at that time when the longer range electrics appear then that might still be a challenge especially if people in apartments and the likes are still prevented by management agencies from installing charge points.

BoatMad wrote: »

3, there seems to be no incentive to encourage the installation of charge points at workplaces. My wife who is a teacher , asked and was told to contact the local education board and do the "running" for it. Surely the PS work place should lead the way.

No, and to be honest once the 150-200 miles range electrics appear in just 2 years there won't be the need. For the current gen electrics perhaps but sales of those are so minuscule why bother ? I would rather see money put towards public charging.

BoatMad wrote: »

I wonder when private fast charge facilities come in, what we will play for a full charge ???

It's all very poorly thoughts out in my opinion.

I hope we don't see private charge points or it could end up being a complete nightmare like it is in the U.K, it's a disaster and we've a far far better system one access card one company and I don't think the ESB plan to rip us off like a lot of private companies in the U.K and currently there isn't the market for it in Ireland with such low EV sales.

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

Personally I see that home charging will not be a feature of future EVs. I predict the industry will adopt standardised auto swappable packs , which can be swapped out in minutes at a " filling" station

you're not the only one with this line of thinking but the real world facts don't back it up, even with larger batteries I would expect home charging to dominate

Tesla and better place had battery swapping systems its really not difficult to design but in the end people just don't want battery swapping

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Remember Nissan have not officially announced the 30 Kwh battery so don't blame me if it doesn't arrive ! But the fact it showed up on the order list in the U.S is pretty good evidence it is coming soon !

Don't forget the 6.6 kw charger in the leaf, hopefully it won't be an option for the 30 Kwh battery.

Ive been told I can order one , soon, for early next year soon, so its coming, given the 2017 model is close behind Nissan haves only one chance to get a bit of life from the Gen 2 design.

why you comments re 6.6 , and yes its an option with the 30kw as far as I understand

Even a 100 Kwh battery can be charged in about 15 hours @6.6 kw or 30 at 3.3 Kw so that's 2-6 nights on night rate or just leave it charging at peak and night rate.

currently EVSE are limited to 15-16 amps, as to how you can get 28A out of a domestic installation while leaving your house functioning , I'd question

equally have you 20 hours of charging time, I think not.

Think about this , most people drive less than 50 miles a day consuming around 10-12 Kwh leaving a staggering 88 Kwh sitting in the battery most days, even my 25-27 Kwh daily commute would leave 72 kwh in a 100 Kwh battery and a real wast if you ask me. 50-60 kwh tops would be much more than I need 98% of the time.

yes but what do they do when they need a car for a reasonable journey. in reality EVs for short journeys are even more unjustified then ICE. The EV really works financially when you are consuming close to its range a day. Everything else is just " greenie speak"

We need much faster charge times a lot more than using natural resources so wastefully just to cure range anxiety.

greenie argument, which as an engineer , has nothing to do with EVs ( where is the electricity coming from anyway )

The ESB will install more slow and fast chargers as needed when the rate of electrics grow, currently the sales so far this year amount to a pathetic 0.4 % of the market but still a lot better than last years EV sales.

No I think they will not be a factor in the market in the longer term.

When you think of it, once the ESB start to charge for the electricity you'll see a lot more people suddenly charge at home rather than go to the free chargers and when the 150-200 mile range electrics arrive there will not be as much of a demand for charge points but if ev sales explode at that time when the longer range electrics appear then that might still be a challenge especially if people in apartments and the likes are still prevented by management agencies from installing charge points.

I think all charging will go DC and smart and fast , including home charging, its the only way to smarten the home charger and load the home system. The onboard charger in the car is numbered and will be reserved for emergencies and be small in capacity ( Nissan is right in this thinking and Renault is wrong )

I hope we don't see private charge points or it could end up being a complete nightmare like it is in the U.K, it's a disaster and we've a far far better system one access card one company and I don't think the ESB plan to rip us off like a lot of private companies in the U.K and currently there isn't the market for it in Ireland with such low EV sales.

We are a private industry orientated country, its inevitable that the vast majority of charging will ultimately be private as they have access to the capital

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

you're not the only one with this line of thinking but the real world facts don't back it up, even with larger batteries I would expect home charging to dominate

Tesla and better place had battery swapping systems its really not difficult to design but in the end people just don't want battery swapping

it only didn't work because its not standardised and automatic. Once you have a DIN standard EV battery and robotised exchange facilities , its the best way to decouple range anxiety.

The EV market is in its infancy, reminds me of the 80s of PCs, look at the technology and its uses now. Very very difficult from the start

Home charging will not feature in my view other then for emergencies ( i.e. to get you to a paid for fast charging point)

as the range of EVs grows and people want faster, bigger and better EVS, ( SUV EVS etc ), then battery swapping is the only way the technology can respond. its while my big makita drill has just such a system.

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

it only didn't work because its not standardised and automatic. Once you have a DIN standard EV battery and robotised exchange facilities , its the best way to decouple range anxiety.

no, the best way to end range anxiety is with bigger batteries and faster chargers

some people will only need a small boost maybe a 10 min charge, so why pay for a full battery in that case, battery swapping will never happen I'm pretty sure of that now

BoatMad wrote: »

Home charging will not feature in my view other then for emergencies ( i.e. to get you to a paid for fast charging point)

of course it will feature because thats where most people park their car most of the time, work charging may also happen, because thats the no 2 place people park the most

BoatMad

nokia69 wrote: »

no, the best way to end range anxiety is with bigger batteries and faster chargers

some people will only need a small boost maybe a 10 min charge, so why pay for a full battery in that case, battery swapping will never happen I'm pretty sure of that now




of course it will feature because thats where most people park their car most of the time, work charging may also happen, because thats the no 2 place people park the most

You are projecting into the future , using todays technology, its always the failing of looking forward

no, the best way to end range anxiety is with bigger batteries and faster chargers

There are physical limits at play, Im an EE, Im aware of what they are. Kwh/Kg density will increase , but there is a point where returns diminish.

high capacity chargers in the car will not feature into the future , there are many technical reasons why is far more advisable that the charger be external.

some people will only need a small boost maybe a 10 min charge, so why pay for a full battery in that case, battery swapping will never happen I'm pretty sure of that now

You have to decouple current EV usage , which is limited to " cognoscenti" and those with a particular agenda. To be mainstream, the vehicle must be " fill and forget". it must be as quicker if not quicker then an ICE etc .

Battery swapping will occur , because its the only way to give people more power and range and cars have been providing greater power all the time. ( greeter accessories A/C, smart tech, crash resistance etc etc ). People want to drive at the speed limit without concern etc

If you look at the safety processes to recharge say a 200Kw battery, this will not be done in the car or in your front drive.

nokia69

BoatMad wrote: »

it only didn't work because its not standardised and automatic.

it looked automatic enough to me, but few model S drivers wanted it and with the range and chargers they have why would they

BoatMad wrote: »

Once you have a DIN standard EV battery and robotised exchange facilities , its the best way to decouple range anxiety.

The EV market is in its infancy, reminds me of the 80s of PCs, look at the technology and its uses now. Very very difficult from the start

I don't really see manufactures using the same packs in most cases its the battery packs that will be the real difference between cars

I do see them working together on better charging systems they can all benefit from that without losing any upside

Benny_Cake

Battery swapping didn't work out too well for Better Place.

I just can't see how it would be a practical proposition. The switching stations would have to be very expensive whereas the whole advantage of a battery electric vehicles over hydrogen fuel cells is that the infrastructure for electricity is everywhere.

I like being able to charge at home and I don't see why this would necessarily change with a bigger battery. My commute isn't going to double if I get a car with twice the battery capacity!

BoatMad

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Battery swapping didn't work out too well for Better Place.

I just can't see how it would be a practical proposition. The switching stations would have to be very expensive whereas the whole advantage of a battery electric vehicles over hydrogen fuel cells is that the infrastructure for electricity is everywhere.

I like being able to charge at home and I don't see why this would necessarily change with a bigger battery. My commute isn't going to double if I get a car with twice the battery capacity!

I buy a car for all journeys not just for commuting

BoatMad

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Battery swapping didn't work out too well for Better Place.

I just can't see how it would be a practical proposition. The switching stations would have to be very expensive whereas the whole advantage of a battery electric vehicles over hydrogen fuel cells is that the infrastructure for electricity is everywhere.

I like being able to charge at home and I don't see why this would necessarily change with a bigger battery. My commute isn't going to double if I get a car with twice the battery capacity!

electricity maybe everywhere, but fast charging is a complex beast and thats definitely not everywhere

BoatMad

I don't really see manufactures using the same packs in most cases its the battery packs that will be the real difference between cars

I do see them working together on better charging systems they can all benefit from that without losing any upside

ultimately , battery tech is not in the hands of car makers. nor are they involved in the manufacture at a specialist level.

As batteries are comoditised, car companies will compete on the usual things that car companies compete on, mostly brand.

once range issues disappear, the punter couldn't give a hoot about the battery

Benny_Cake

BoatMad wrote: »

I buy a car for all journeys not just for commuting

The overwhelming majority of the journey I make are commutes. I use the car at the weekends to visit family / do odd trips here and there and don't need to use the public chargers most of the time, no issues thankfully when I have needed them. The car simply works for me, it's the only car in the house too.

Obviously that isn't going to be the case for everyone, but certainly for a lot of people living in urban areas current EVs work just fine.

BoatMad

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of the journey I make are commutes. I use the car at the weekends to visit family / do odd trips here and there and don't need to use the public chargers most of the time, no issues thankfully when I have needed them. The car simply works for me, it's the only car in the house too.

Obviously that isn't going to be the case for everyone, but certainly for a lot of people living in urban areas current EVs work just fine.

funnily my view it that EVs are a very bad financial buy for urban and short commute use. a small efficient petrol is far better.

The real savings come when you are using it for a daily commute that uses 90% of its charge and you are seeking to displace ICE on cost grounds ( are there any other in reality )

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't agree with your summary on point 1 and it's not what the various engineers in the ESB, that I know say. Most wiring to houses is underground d is severely limited in capacity , especially in urban housing estates. Re doing these is a massive job . You might also have a look at the costs of installing three phase at the moment, especially where the supply isn't convenient.

The reason I specifically mentioned the difference in capital cost is because most of the cost of these special order three-phase supplies is the network build cost of getting the three-phase supply to you. In a scenario where EVs become more commonplace the network will largely already be built out to serve your neighbors and less of the network costs fall on the individual customer.

BoatMad wrote: »

Again in relation to capacity , you miss the point.

Doubling or trebling the battery capacity will not lead to 2 or 3x range, it will lead to more " carefree " driving and full motorway speed etc. it will also tempt people to use the car more and recharge less ( in reality have less time to recharge ). We will see the rise of the single car EV family.

The difference in consumption between my 1 ton i3 doing 100km/h on a flat road and a 2 ton Model S doing 130km/h is about 40% (13-14kW sustained vs about 18-20kW). And a big chunk of that difference is aerodynamics (at 100km/h in still air around 50% of and EVs energy consumption is counteracting drag and air resistance, the reason people notice a difference in range at night is not lights etc. (as people sometimes assume) it's increased air density). The difference between hypermiling my i3 and flooring it at every opportunity is about 20-30%. There is no feasible situation (barring 200km/h autobahns) in which power consumption of EVs would double.

BoatMad wrote: »

Since the laws of physics are immutable, what comes out of the battery must go back in. Attempting to extract 100kwh of energy from a domestic system is simply not going to fly

Mad_Lad and myself are making the point that in typical use you won't see that depth of discharge regularly. And in the event you do you can just pay for a better supply (from the massive savings you'd be making at that kind of mileage you'd have payback on a €5-7k three-phase install in a matter of months). I don't see why drawing 100 kWh in the space of a few days would be a problem (beyond capacity planning for Eirgrid), take a look at farm supplies which often see similar consumption.

BoatMad wrote: »

Ireland is actually in a worse case then say Germany , which habitually installs three phase, housing rings are limited to about 32 amps , which is why EVSEs are wired in direct . The USA is actually better as all houses have high capacity 220vac split phase supplies , specifically designed for high current applications

Not making the argument that we're in a better position than Germany. Just that we're better off than the UK and that the German setup should be the goal.

BoatMad wrote: »

Personally I see that home charging will not be a feature of future EVs. I predict the industry will adopt standardised auto swappable packs , which can be swapped out in minutes at a " filling" station

Tesla and Better Place tried that... nobody wants battery swapping. You may see powertrain and battery standardisation in a decade or two but until then the battery is a major structural component and power density is low enough that pack design has to be vehicle specific.
I'd actually bet on standardised multi-cell battery modules like the i3 uses with each individual module having a pre-packaged BMS (battery management system). That takes a lot of the design work out of building the pack and you can mass produce the modules.
I'd further bet that the battery packs (i.e. container for the modules with thermal management and distribution wiring) will for the most part remain vehicle specific.

BoatMad wrote: »

AA Roadwatch will then in time, be advising us to shop around between Varta, Excide etc and pundits will point out that the charges for battery refilling now exceeds what diesel cost in the " good auld days "

Never...going...to...happen. Electricity is simply too easy to produce, too easy to move and it's the same regardless of it's source. If one fuel source or technology for producing power rises in price the market adjusts. And with lithium-ion grid scale storage getting down to economically feasible prices power will be too easy to store soon too. Metal air batteries in the next 10-20 years will only improve energy density and reduce costs further.

Lithium Ion cells have seen an average of a 7% increase in density per year with production costs dropping with scale. That has held true for 20 years and I see no reason it won;t hold true for at least another decade. The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest. Sure... there is a point of diminishing returns but when lithium ion is tapped out we can just move to lithium air. There will always be another battery tech.

Deleted User wrote: »

When you think of it, once the ESB start to charge for the electricity you'll see a lot more people suddenly charge at home rather than go to the free chargers and when the 150-200 mile range electrics arrive there will not be as much of a demand for charge points but if ev sales explode at that time when the longer range electrics appear then that might still be a challenge especially if people in apartments and the likes are still prevented by management agencies from installing charge points.

ESB is working on a standardised solution for shared car parking situations.

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope we don't see private charge points or it could end up being a complete nightmare like it is in the U.K, it's a disaster and we've a far far better system one access card one company and I don't think the ESB plan to rip us off like a lot of private companies in the U.K and currently there isn't the market for it in Ireland with such low EV sales.

+1. Most of the privatised charging networks on the planet are a disaster. Until they are forced to accept a single national card and there are extensive roaming agreement or they take direct contactless payments at the chargepoint they will all continue to be a disaster.

BoatMad wrote: »

currently EVSE are limited to 15-16 amps, as to how you can get 28A out of a domestic installation while leaving your house functioning , I'd question

equally have you 20 hours of charging time, I think not.

I'm not aware of any such limit. I have four 32 amp and a 16 amp EVSEs installed. My parents place has two 32A EVSEs and a 16A running on a single phase 29kVa domestic supply. No problems with charging all three vehicles overnight.

Looking at installing 11kWp of solar panels and a three phase supply there in the new year and I'll probably upgrade all three chargers to 22kW. Maybe replace one of the chargers with a wall mounted 25kW CCS DC charger.

BoatMad wrote: »

yes but what do they do when they need a car for a reasonable journey. in reality EVs for short journeys are even more unjustified then ICE. The EV really works financially when you are consuming close to its range a day. Everything else is just " greenie speak"

BoatMad wrote: »

greenie argument, which as an engineer , has nothing to do with EVs ( where is the electricity coming from anyway )

I'm an engineer too.

BoatMad wrote: »

I think all charging will go DC and smart and fast , including home charging, its the only way to smarten the home charger and load the home system. The onboard charger in the car is numbered and will be reserved for emergencies and be small in capacity ( Nissan is right in this thinking and Renault is wrong )

I'm also of the opinion that DC is the way forward. But I don't see DC home charging taking off until more than 50% of households have EVs. The reason being economic, the current EVSE switchgear and socket can be brought down in price quicker and we won't have standardisation on the DC supply for the car for quite a while. Why I'm particularly interested in the idea of a 400v home storage battery just emptying into a vehicle without the multiple unnecessary inverter losses. I'd be very surprised if that isn't part of Tesla's medium term plan for the powerwalls.

BoatMad wrote: »

Home charging will not feature in my view other then for emergencies ( i.e. to get you to a paid for fast charging point)

as the range of EVs grows and people want faster, bigger and better EVS, ( SUV EVS etc ), then battery swapping is the only way the technology can respond. its while my big makita drill has just such a system.

Your makita is not comparable. The duty cycle is very different, you have a limited number of cells, different chemistry and BMS limitations. A temperature controlled, heavily managed vehicle pack with hundreds or thousands of cells is a very different beast.

Charging your car overnight at home is already more convenient than having to take an ICE to a petrol station. You largely plug in when you get home and nothing more is required unless you are exceeding your range in one day.
Unless you can come up with a reason that the average person would need to habitually charge more than 25-30 kWh a night you are engineering your way round a non-existent problem.

I'd be horrified by the prospect of swapping my known good battery pack at a swapping station for a battery of unknown provenance. The battery in my car has a 20 year design life ( time to 70% capacity on typical duty cycle ), beyond upgrading its capacity if the option became available why would I risk a battery swap?
There's also a lot of information that needs to transferred with the pack, a full history that enables the car to determine power output from the pack at specific discharge points and range. Another issue is that I can predict my range and charging times instinctively at this point. With a new pack that goes out the window and I'm relying on the car's software.

BoatMad

I don't see the issue in relation to private charging points. You'll either pay at the desk or at the charging point with .......... A debit or credit card. Not particularly revolutionary.

As for three phase. The issue is ripping up the underground cables in housing estates . I suppose we could go split phase and save a wire !

As to consumption of power as EVs move into the mainstream, power will be consumed , rises in battery capacity will not result in equivalent range gain., but it's a small debating point

You'll never have a 400 v battery " emptying " into any EV , Li requires careful control, of the charging process. At the very least you'd have to transform it to AC , and feed a smart dedicated Charger.

ESB are refusing to,install EVSEs on domestic supplies greater then 15-16 amps. I was told this by an ESB engineer. I presume you have three phase

My makita is not directly comparable. It's multi cell , it's the same technology as leaf LiMn , and it has cell level BMS , as does almost all Li charging systems.

As to the provence of the batteries. First the software will generally be better then you ( as in general you ) and no one cares once they get the range they paid for.

Any way let's agree to disagree

Jaysus this thread is moving too fast for me lol

I'm enjoying reading it though !

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

why you comments re 6.6 , and yes its an option with the 30kw as far as I understand

The 6.6 Kw charger means on several occasions I've been able to plug in to a standard AC public charge point , come back, get into the car and drive off rather than look for a DC charger and possibly have to wait for someone to finish charging that got to the charge point first.

You can get from 25% to 90% in about 2 hrs compared to 4 hrs for the 3.3 Kw charger.

BoatMad wrote: »

currently EVSE are limited to 15-16 amps, as to how you can get 28A out of a domestic installation while leaving your house functioning , I'd question

equally have you 20 hours of charging time, I think not.

Not a problem because as I said earlier , most people drive less than 50 miles a day consuming 10-15 kwh so you can build up 100 Kwh over several days if needs be.

BoatMad wrote: »

yes but what do they do when they need a car for a reasonable journey. in reality EVs for short journeys are even more unjustified then ICE. The EV really works financially when you are consuming close to its range a day. Everything else is just " greenie speak"

If you're doing short trips daily and buying new then a cheap petrol will be cheaper than an ev to buy but if buying a car at a similar cost as the Ev then the Ev makes a lot of sense, the Leaf/ Zoe costs about as much as a Diesel I30, Golf, Kia Ceed , Peugeot , Renault etc.

BoatMad wrote: »

greenie argument, which as an engineer , has nothing to do with EVs ( where is the electricity coming from anyway )

Not what I meant when I said "a waste of natural resources" I meant that if someone rarely needs more than 20 Kwh daily why would they need 100 Kw meaning all the minerals needed to make such a large battery ?

Most of our electricity comes form Gas, and sometimes 35-40 % comes from wind. Ev is up to 80% efficient compared to petrol/diesel @ about 20-35 % max. So even if our electricity is generated by Gas the EV uses that energy far more efficiently.

BoatMad wrote: »

I think all charging will go DC and smart and fast , including home charging, its the only way to smarten the home charger and load the home system. The onboard charger in the car is numbered and will be reserved for emergencies and be small in capacity ( Nissan is right in this thinking and Renault is wrong )

No way of knowing what way the industry will go, but currently the indications suggest only Renault will have the most powerful on board AC charger of any EV in the world and it makes sense we use our AC charge piints to their full potential. You cna;;t underestimate the value of more powerful AC charging as even I'm aware of with the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf. The Zoe can charge at the full 22 Kw form the same AC public charge points V the optional charger in the leaf at 6.6 Kw.

Most people even if charging with 2 Ev's will be satisfied with 16 amp charging. 32 amps after 11-12 am/pm night rate change over when not many energy hungry devices

BoatMad wrote: »

We are a private industry orientated country, its inevitable that the vast majority of charging will ultimately be private as they have access to the capital

Who knows, currently there is absolutely no evidence any private company coudld be bothered in a market as small as ours.

DrPhilG

cros13 wrote: »

3. There's a program in NI to get public services building to install EVSE for employees. Even today battery capacity is at a point where workplace charging is a nice to have but hardly necessary.

Any info or links to this? I work in a hospital in NI!